2008 US Elections

[Bal-Sagoth]

Also also, the idea that socialism is the equivalent of just giving money to people shows a fundamental lack of understanding that notion.

Redistribution of wealth however is a fundamental principle of socialism.

As I said before I am not worried about Obama as his policies are not overtly socialist to an extent I am up in arms over them, but more so what his policies could possibly lay the ground work for.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

the electoral college is there to over-turn the popular vote if needed to allow more "educated" people vote if needed. they believed the common man to be stupid and uninformed. they were right. the common man is stupid and uninformed. how can the average person have a job, spouse, children, house, car, etc, etc and keep informed and abreast of not only all the laws/bills going to congress not only to READ but also UNDERSTAND in a worldwide setup? he cannot. thats why we have the electoral college.

The electoral college is there because southern states with lower populations wanted more power and didn't want northern states, due to their larger population, to have overwhelmingly more power. The same principle basically stands today, it gives small (population wise) states disproportionately more power than larger states.

It's a bad system that needs to be scrapped, though I get the feeling that it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Also, calling Obama a socialist is absolutely hilarious.

Very much so. The USA is a conservative country by most of the worlds standards.

Indeed, I laugh whenever I hear that or stuff about how radically Obama is going to change things. He's unfortunately a very center (for US politics, center-right objectively speaking) politician who is very much so on the right end of the democratic party. I remind people who bought the crap about him being the most liberal senator in congress that they said the same thing about Clinton when they thought that she was going to win and that you're ignoring people like Kucinich and Barry Sanders (neither of which are the most left either, if I'm not mistaken).

 

[Dal1as]

Ha, Obama a centrist right? Are you kidding me. Look at his voting record and his beliefs. Maybe centrist right compared to Europe.

Well to start with, your aunt and cousin are retarded because Canadians can get insurence for out of country coverage which covers all healthcare expenses in countries that don't have socialized health care (mostly for Canadians visiting the states). Yes the government should socialize public colleges (ie pay the bill) but really the entire education system needs an overhaul (standardized testing for every grade level before college which determines if/where a student moves onto and if/where they can get into college).

Wrong, when you can not wait for a service you pay out of pocket. I'd wage my Aunt is a lot smarter than yourself. She has 2 freaking PHD's for christ sake.

Social programs are much less abused by citizens than they are by corporations like WalMart (I'd suggest watching the documentary "The High Cost of Low Prices" which has how much it costs the government and thus tax payers to pay for the social programs for WalMart that WalMart should be paying for).

Seen it and agree that programs are abused elsewhere. That is not my point though.

Incorrect. Donations are deductable from taxes to a certain level (I think it's a percentage of taxes, but I'm not sure).

It is still money out of their pocket and with less taxes people free up more money for charity.

Link it. Most hospitals require prepayment (multiple times as expensive for the uninsured) or proof of insurance before treating anyone.

You must not be from the US. It's rampant. Just google Arizona hospital bankrupt.

The impact of illegal immigrants is greatly exaggerated and the problem isn't them, the problem is those hiring them. If you put massive monetary penalties along with years of prison time for anyone hiring illegal immigrants and you'll start reducing the problem (it'll never completely go away).

I agree with holding the corporations and businesses accountable for hiring them but you are severely overlooking the problems associated with illegal immigration in the US.

 

[Loxley]

. Most hospitals require prepayment (multiple times as expensive for the uninsured) or proof of insurance before treating anyone.

That is quite wrong. If it's an emergency a hospital MUST treat a patient with insurance or not. That is why illegal aliens go to ERs with colds and such.

My experience with this subject is limited to california. I was told however that due to this problem several californian hospitals have simply removed the ER room. From what I understood the law says that they have to treat them if they enter the ER room. Remove the room or just call it something else and you can throw out anyone you want.

 

[TheWesDude]

@TheWesDude
That's even worse, and affirms concerns that one person's vote is worth more than another.

the only vote that matters is how the reps in each state vote. thats who determines who wins. not how the individual votes.

 

[Leon]

Sander already established that, and like I said before - it's even worse for making many people feel that their vote doesn't actually matter. That discourages voter turnout and participation.

 

[boer_kameel]

There's only two western nations dumb, backward and fucked up enough to do otherwise: USA and Italy. Congrats, you behave like fucking wops. You deserve another Bush. Or maybe a Berlusconi.

And there's only one country that's got it's head up its ass far enough to go without government for months, and almost tear apart from political fighting between the 2 halves.

Politics has long evaded it's true course: Bringing the interests of the people to the table and making them happen. Now it's about personal glory, picking on the other group, trying to win followers. In almost every nation.

Indeed they should just give their program points and let the people decide what should be the best way to go. Then again, if voting is a right and not a duty, most people won't be interested by that. They need the bells and whistles, and wasting of millions of cash, to get them to those vote booths.

Quite ironic in these economic hard times that an election circus manages to still spend so much money. Would be quite the stunt to declare "I WONT JOIN THIS CIRCUS BUT DONATE THE FUNDS TO THE PEOPLE". Now that would be insta-elect.

 

[SimpleMinded]

@TheWesDude
That's even worse, and affirms concerns that one person's vote is worth more than another.

the only vote that matters is how the reps in each state vote. thats who determines who wins. not how the individual votes.

That's why we need to push for the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact to take effect (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact)

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Killer, what sources do you have for this statement of yours? Or is this from your own minuscule experience in life? I don't mean to be offensive but when folk use their life experience in something like this, they should know just how small and insignificant their observations are.

I was riffing dude, take the stick out of your ass.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Ha, Obama a centrist right? Are you kidding me. Look at his voting record and his beliefs. Maybe centrist right compared to Europe.

No, center right objectively speaking. http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008
http://paulitics.wordpress.com/2007...dates-compared-to-canadian-political-parties/

Seen it and agree that programs are abused elsewhere. That is not my point though.

What is your point then?

It is still money out of their pocket and with less taxes people free up more money for charity.

Link it. I'll bet you that most people don't donate to charity and that most people who do donate to charity don't donate significantly more than they get a tax rebate for.

You must not be from the US. It's rampant. Just google Arizona hospital bankrupt.

Pretty sure you're talking about a state law.

I agree with holding the corporations and businesses accountable for hiring them but you are severely overlooking the problems associated with illegal immigration in the US.

Such as? Regardless, if you're talking about solving the problem then you want to address the problem and not the symptoms, illegal immigrants are simply the symptom.

the only vote that matters is how the reps in each state vote. thats who determines who wins. not how the individual votes.

Most states have laws that punish their electoral representatives if they don't follow the states rules on how the votes are to be divided based on the popular vote of the state and it's extremely rare for a rep to break said laws.

 

[fedaykin]

Redistribution of wealth however is a fundamental principle of socialism.

Yes. It's a good thing, then, that free high school education, law enforcement, emergency medical help etc are not achieved thanks to redistribution of wealth. Oh wait, they are. Sucks to be you, commie!

 

[Buxbaum666]

I wonder if the red scare will ever wear off.

 

[SimpleMinded]

Redistribution of wealth however is a fundamental principle of socialism.

Yes. It's a good thing, then, that free high school education, law enforcement, emergency medical help etc are not achieved thanks to redistribution of wealth. Oh wait, they are. Sucks to be you, commie!

... I'm sorry, I just want clarification here. Feday, you seem to be attacking Bal-Sagoth for approving of redistribution of wealth because he approves of free high school education, law enforcement and emergency medical health. So... are you implying these are bad?

 

[Maphusio]

Killer, what sources do you have for this statement of yours? Or is this from your own minuscule experience in life? I don't mean to be offensive but when folk use their life experience in something like this, they should know just how small and insignificant their observations are.

I was riffing dude, take the stick out of your ass.

We are in a literal, text based environment... Try a little harder to make it obvious pally.

 

[fedaykin]

... I'm sorry, I just want clarification here. Feday, you seem to be attacking Bal-Sagoth for approving of redistribution of wealth because he approves of free high school education, law enforcement and emergency medical health. So... are you implying these are bad?

No.

Bal-Sagoth appears to be disapproving of redistribution of wealth and condemns Obama on the grounds that Obama approves of redistribution of wealth. Thereby B-S is showing his ignorance, because redistribution of wealth is the very definition of the taxes that he pays. Without taxes, public services and amenities would not be possible. There is nothing wrong with collecting taxes and thereby redistributing some wealth for the common good. B-S is wrong when he assumes that this alone can be called socialism, because what constitutes socialism is not limited to redistribution of wealth.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

I do not mind the spending on emergency services and other such programs. What I am against is the taxing of the wealthy for the simple reason they make more. Why should they be punished if they were more ambitious/in a better situation?

The system is far from perfect (I despise welfare) but it is something we all have to deal with as we all have to pay taxes.

To put it very bluntly I want to make sure as little of my money as possible goes to other people who did not earn it. I would have to go into specific programs to show which I approve of but you can use your imagination I am sure.

 

[fedaykin]

No, I'm not going to use my imagination. If you want to make an argument against a specific program, you'll have to do that yourself.

As for welfare, I fail to see why you despise it. What if you get into an unfortunate situation one day and are forced to live on welfare? Would it be so bad if the government helped you out a bit?

Wanna know what I am against? Giving tax breaks to the wealthy while leaving others in the rain.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

No, I'm not going to use my imagination. If you want to make an argument against a specific program, you'll have to do that yourself.

As for welfare, I fail to see why you despise it. What if you get into an unfortunate situation one day and are forced to live on welfare? Would it be so bad if the government helped you out a bit?

Wanna know what I am against? Giving tax breaks to the wealthy while leaving others in the rain.

No real reason in arguing this than as we clearly are in two very separate states of mind.

Would it be bad if the government helped people out a bit? If it is with my money absolutely.

As far as myself going on welfare I do not think that is in my cards. My family is well off to say the least without going into details and after college (two more years) I am going into the Marine Corps as an officer.

So yeah I think I am pretty set.

After you say your peace I will probably not respond again to this particular issue as I really do not think either of us are going to compromise so there is no real point.

 

[Sicblades]

No real reason in arguing this than as we clearly are in two very separate states of mind.

Would it be bad if the government helped people out a bit? If it is with my money absolutely.

As far as myself going on welfare I do not think that is in my cards. My family is well off to say the least without going into details and after college (two more years) I am going into the Marine Corps as an officer.

So yeah I think I am pretty set.

After you say your peace I will probably not respond again to this particular issue as I really do not think either of us are going to compromise so there is no real point.

Why would it be so bad that the government wisely spends money to help out others who just can't seem to catch a break. I first hand know of people who had to work 2 full-times jobs to keep paying for rent and food, without luxuries. They probably work harder than anyone else I know, but they still find themselves as low income families.

Just think hypothetically for a moment. Your family has no means to help out monetarily, and your college degree doesn't guarantee you a job. Two years go by where you're stuck working a minimum wage job to barely live. Then you'd be crying for the government to help you out, because even as ambitious as you were by going to college and working hard to barely survive, you'd need more to get ahead no? And if you say "Well that's just how it'd be and I'd accept that" then I'd say you're full of shit because you just happen to find yourself in the other side of the spectrum without having experienced first hand those actual living conditions.

There's plenty of well educated people in the world who are just ambitious as anyone who aren't well off, so that "because they weren't as ambitious as I" excuse is just pure elitist crap.

Just because you're "set" at this moment in time doesn't guarantee you anything, and to even further that, the arrogance that is carried by such an attitude won't let you admit that everyone has a poor moment in their life where they struggle. I really hope you never need any government assistance, I wouldn't even wish that on my worst enemy.

By your post you clearly have the means to support a slight increase in taxes for the greater good, you'll lose a bit to the government, big fucking deal, when those extra pennies that are pocket change to your wealth bring in mounds of benefits for the people who don't happen to find themselves in the same situation, that in itself should be more rewarding than the money you lose.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Would it be bad if the government helped people out a bit? If it is with my money absolutely.

this would be absolutely miserly, selfish and horrifying if it weren't so obvious why you feel this way.

see below:

As far as myself going on welfare I do not think that is in my cards. My family is well off to say the least without going into details and after college (two more years) I am going into the Marine Corps as an officer.

and there we have it folks. nothin' like a silver spoon, eh? these aren't really your economical philosophies are they? you were born into them and i'd wager a guess you were raised to follow them strictly.