Reality might be soon enough different thoughDarkCorp said:
*grabs him self a chinese book* time to learn the new shit !
2011 Libyan uprising and no fly zone.
- Thread starter DarkCorp
- Start date
*grabs him self a chinese book* time to learn the new shit !
I used to think that, now I'm not so sure. When China becomes the worlds economic powerhouse, I recon English will retain it's current position as a language - more or less. At least in my life time anyway.
I was squeeling at the asstarded justifications (HE HAS WMD RARGHAGHGAHRHAHRR! Oh wait, no he doesn't. But he does support terrorists! No wait, he didn't.) and the unliateral aspect of the war, neither of which is present right now.DammitBoy said:
Qadaffi never represented a problem for the US in terms of oil prics. If anything, supporting him would've stabilized the country sooner and would've been better for oil prices.DarkCorp said:
What I do have a problem with is the whole "no-fly zone" public policy. It was never realistic to establish a no-fly zone and then just stop there. Not only do you have to take out Qadaffi's anti-air support, but what's the point of a no-fly zone if you're going to let Qadaffi massacre his citizens using tanks? I don't think any of the involved governments was ever under the illusion that they'd establish a no-fly zone and end it there, but that is what they talked about in public.
@DammitBoy: I'm sure Obama and his administration were aware of all these questions when they committed to this military intervention.
The main problem with going through congress is one of expedience, which was necessary in this case.
Sander said:
Yeah, I'm sure that's why he didn't go to congress - because he didn't have answers to those questions and it looks like he still doesn't have any answers.
As to expedience - he didn't act for nearly three weeks, so he had the time to ask the UN what to do, but not congress.
Military command isn't in the habit of rushing into things without thinking them through. This is as true for the Obama administration as it was for the Bush administration. That doesn't mean they're right, but they will have answers to those questions.DammitBoy said:
Obama took less than a week to act in a military sense after implementing economic sanctions, which weren't working. I doubt anything would've gotten through congress that quickly. The whole point of having a single leader at the top is to be able to do things like this quickly.DammitBoy said:As to expedience - he didn't act for nearly three weeks, so he had the time to ask the UN what to do, but not congress.
Asking the security council to vote on a measure is generally a lot more expedient than going through congress. It's not a very involved process.
Starseeker
Vault Senior Citizen
I am kinda with SuAside on this one. Seriously, 3 things kinda bothered me about this "intervention".
1. I sure as hell didn't see any jet fighters or missiles during the 89 Tienanmen massacre or the 07 Tibetan "uprising".
2. Hey, we are seriously in debt! Hey, there is this nutter in Africa who has billions of US dollars in assets in our banks! Hey, why don't we call him a corrupt nutter and size the money for ourselves! We'll say we are keeping this money for their people while tying the money up in legal precedings for years. We can make our loan payment with the interest alone! The icing on the cake? He has light crude! One of the best crude there is!
3. Interestingly, there are surprisingly little reports about the rebels (or liberators, whatever you want to call them) looting and stealing foreign assets, harming innocent foreign workers and etc. I have also heard reports and interviews of foreign workers terrorized by the rebels. Some Canadian workers barely escaped with their lives intact while their refineries were liberated by the rebels. But the hardest hit were the foreign African workers (and possibly Indians), who retold pretty harrowing tales of harassment, robbery, assault and possibly raping and killing committed by the civilians/rebels.
As for the Chinese, there was an amusing tale reported about the rebels who had taken over/liberated the oil refineries on the coast and managed the fill a tanker with light crude to sell to the Chinese. The Chinese, who didn't know exactly who to pay, rejected the offer.
1. I sure as hell didn't see any jet fighters or missiles during the 89 Tienanmen massacre or the 07 Tibetan "uprising".
2. Hey, we are seriously in debt! Hey, there is this nutter in Africa who has billions of US dollars in assets in our banks! Hey, why don't we call him a corrupt nutter and size the money for ourselves! We'll say we are keeping this money for their people while tying the money up in legal precedings for years. We can make our loan payment with the interest alone! The icing on the cake? He has light crude! One of the best crude there is!
3. Interestingly, there are surprisingly little reports about the rebels (or liberators, whatever you want to call them) looting and stealing foreign assets, harming innocent foreign workers and etc. I have also heard reports and interviews of foreign workers terrorized by the rebels. Some Canadian workers barely escaped with their lives intact while their refineries were liberated by the rebels. But the hardest hit were the foreign African workers (and possibly Indians), who retold pretty harrowing tales of harassment, robbery, assault and possibly raping and killing committed by the civilians/rebels.
As for the Chinese, there was an amusing tale reported about the rebels who had taken over/liberated the oil refineries on the coast and managed the fill a tanker with light crude to sell to the Chinese. The Chinese, who didn't know exactly who to pay, rejected the offer.
sydney_roo
Still Mildly Glowing
The front line (around 10km north of Ajdabiyah) has barely moved in the four days since allied air strikes last weekend destroyed the regime's armored column that had been advancing on the rebel capital of Benghazi.
Oh don't worry, it gets to me too.Sander said:
The fact we pulled out of Rwanda still haunts me to this very day.
Perhaps the question is more: why are we here and why are we being dishonest about it?Sander said:
As said before, I'm not inherently against intervention. Hell, I've supported interventions such as Afghanistan from the start and have been hoping for politicians to find their ballsacks and do "the right thing" more often, even if it means putting our professional soldiers in harms way.
But we're lying through our teeth when we say it's simply a no-fly zone. And most likely we're also lying about why exactly we chose to intervene. This irks me. Maybe this makes it 'feel' more shady then it is. Maybe we're indeed there to simply help the needy and hope for the best... But it sure doesn't feel that simple to me.
The fact that the outcome might eventually mean we're creating more enemies by aiding in the destabilization of an entire region is but an afterthough.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Maybe Starseeker gave me my answer. What are the benefits from doing what we have done to ghadaffi now?
Well, the weapon embargo was agreed upon before the no fly zone.DammitBoy said:
But yeah, I was expecting this...
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
I also fear the escalating situation. The front lines have stalled, even with heavy Western support. So what now? Wait until big G's mercenaries tire of his antics? Because the guy's got enough $ to fund them for years, I read.
A full-blown invasion would be a very bad idea, but once you are committed, you can only go forward or pull back and make all that useless.
Or the situation stays the same, and Lybia eventually becomes another Liban, with who knows how many years of constant civil warfare. And we really have more than enough of those.
EDIT: Oh, and now Gaddafi is arming civilians. Shit. If there ever was a sign that a true civil war was on the horizon...
A full-blown invasion would be a very bad idea, but once you are committed, you can only go forward or pull back and make all that useless.
Or the situation stays the same, and Lybia eventually becomes another Liban, with who knows how many years of constant civil warfare. And we really have more than enough of those.
EDIT: Oh, and now Gaddafi is arming civilians. Shit. If there ever was a sign that a true civil war was on the horizon...
Starseeker
Vault Senior Citizen
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90780/91342/7314966.html
China says, "We aren't Libya! People are Happy here, and don't you dare try that shat here!"
One has to love Chinese "news". This is arse kissing in fine form indeed!
*sorry, I can't stop laughing to type anymore*
China says, "We aren't Libya! People are Happy here, and don't you dare try that shat here!"
One has to love Chinese "news". This is arse kissing in fine form indeed!
*sorry, I can't stop laughing to type anymore*
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Starseeker, your no stranger to CPC shenannigans. China is not yet up to par with America in turning their citizens into sheep. So what it cannot do with endless goods, food, entertainment, trendy shit, etc, it does with a healthy dose of political propaganda, secret police, and iron hold on government.
Granted its not the same but America has a lot in common with China. A nation bent on indoctrinating their citizens into a nationalistic fervor (albeit with religion, narcissism, and capitalism, instead of the usual CPC ideology). Even with democracy (not direct though), the distribution of wealth remains un-even. Our politicians still cannot wrap their heads around a nice middle ground between universal healthcare and the current situation. Though its almost stamped out, racism and other social problems still exist.
Granted it was much earlier when the nation was just beginning to industrialise but the US had its fair share of government crackdowns from strikers to folks who dis-agreed with the way the government did things. Whether it was done in secret or right in the streets, the haves had an incredible amount of control over the have nots. The elite drove up market prices artificially while countless millions sheeped it up. When the ponzi scheme started to show and growth soon became un-sustainable, millions were fucked as the elite withdrew their assets as silently as possible.
The pinkertons were notorious for their brutality against folks who were after better pay and working conditions. Sweatshops and child labor was abundant. There was very little, if any, laws to protect the average joe.
With all of its showboating, arrogance and hyprocracy, the US is still very far away from being the benevolent entity it so often claims to be.
Granted its not the same but America has a lot in common with China. A nation bent on indoctrinating their citizens into a nationalistic fervor (albeit with religion, narcissism, and capitalism, instead of the usual CPC ideology). Even with democracy (not direct though), the distribution of wealth remains un-even. Our politicians still cannot wrap their heads around a nice middle ground between universal healthcare and the current situation. Though its almost stamped out, racism and other social problems still exist.
Granted it was much earlier when the nation was just beginning to industrialise but the US had its fair share of government crackdowns from strikers to folks who dis-agreed with the way the government did things. Whether it was done in secret or right in the streets, the haves had an incredible amount of control over the have nots. The elite drove up market prices artificially while countless millions sheeped it up. When the ponzi scheme started to show and growth soon became un-sustainable, millions were fucked as the elite withdrew their assets as silently as possible.
The pinkertons were notorious for their brutality against folks who were after better pay and working conditions. Sweatshops and child labor was abundant. There was very little, if any, laws to protect the average joe.
With all of its showboating, arrogance and hyprocracy, the US is still very far away from being the benevolent entity it so often claims to be.
What is the plan? Support the rebels until they replace gaddafi. Simple really. Most dictators do like gaddafi and keep the best weapons and training for themselves. revolutionary guard, bath guard ect.
Gaddafi showed that this was effective when he pushed the rebels back. However...he messed upp. Foreign mercenaries and bombing his own people and then following it with "All houses will be searched...I will get revenge" and the western world had all the incentive and justification to even the odds.
When the rebels win they will want to build and train a modern army. Guess who their nearest military allies will be? Not china.
Anyway, that is the rose red plan.
I wonder however what the effect will be on dictators reciveing US military training. Sure the military gets better but what if you then cannot tell it to fire at ones own angry citicens? I doubt military training from china will instill such problems in the military.
Gaddafi showed that this was effective when he pushed the rebels back. However...he messed upp. Foreign mercenaries and bombing his own people and then following it with "All houses will be searched...I will get revenge" and the western world had all the incentive and justification to even the odds.
When the rebels win they will want to build and train a modern army. Guess who their nearest military allies will be? Not china.
Anyway, that is the rose red plan.
I wonder however what the effect will be on dictators reciveing US military training. Sure the military gets better but what if you then cannot tell it to fire at ones own angry citicens? I doubt military training from china will instill such problems in the military.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
A puppet regime, which is then flooded with goods and services, will do much to soothe the populace as opposed to enforcing obedience through more draconian methods.
However, I do hope this turns out more of a S. Korea than post-soviet Afghanistan.
However, I do hope this turns out more of a S. Korea than post-soviet Afghanistan.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Well, if folks in half of the country are un-happy with how Ghaddafi is running things then maybe a split is needed.
The S. Koreans are much better off than their northern counterparts, atleast thats what it seems to be.
The S. Koreans are much better off than their northern counterparts, atleast thats what it seems to be.