3D for Fallout 3!

[zioburosky13]

Great, another newbie has decided to post his uneducated brainturd on this forum, despite the fact that such brainturd was discussed and debunked so many times even the roaches on my desk understand it by now.

I will reiterate what others have been saying for years now - Fallout cannot be a first person game. The challenges of such a transition are simply impossible to overcome.

From the mechanical standpoint, it is extremely difficult to implement a proper turn-based combat system in a first person game (and contrary to what you seem to be proposing, you can't have real-time combat in Fallout without seriously fucking up the ruleset). For example, how would you as the player be able to accurately see how many hexes lie between you and the enemy? How would the movement work? Do you rotate your view in discrete 60° segments or do you have freelook? If it's the latter, how do you move into an adjacent hex without constantly staring at the ground and aligning your view with your hex of choice?

From the artistic standpoint, Fallout would lose much of its special atmosphere and "feel". You can't have first person view in pencil & paper roleplaying, now can you, genius? For that matter, I'm not aware of any first person '50s SF comics.

I actually want to see F3 in 3D first-person. If you have seen the Oblivion gameplay movie, u know how powerful the 3D-engine can be. Photo-realistic (well, almost) enviroment especially the jungle scene.

Oblivion looks very impressive for a 3D game, but your claim about "photo-realism" is abject nonsense. An average scene in the Oblivion engine - a pinnacle in 3D technology - is still visually inferior to an equivalent prerendered 2D scene. Curves still don't look quite like curves, and architecture is still relatively simple compared to what can be achieved through prerendering. But "u" don't really care about artistic aspects of games, do you? All sheep like you require in order to be content are simplistic models bungled together out of a handful of polygons and a few shaders to make them shiny.

There are 2 types to combat, 1 is turn-based combat (Classic Fallout) while the other is real-time (It SHOULD be like vampire:Bloodline. Hit somewhere and let the computer calculate the damage. Not like Morrowind ).

Ironically, combat was without doubt the worst aspect of VtM: Bloodlines. But hey, that's what you want, isn't it? You want to remove those solutions that made Fallout good and replace them with mediocre or downright crappy solutions from other, inferior games.

You head to a shop and the shopkeeper notice you and starts to greet you. You can interact with the stuff in his shop. You pick-up a bottle of nuka-cola. The shopkeeper says it's only 10 bottlecaps (or 100 caps if your barter skill is low). You throw it away and the shopkeeper is not happy. He will shoot you or warn you depending on your karma.

So if I don't place the bottle on the exact same spot where it was before, the shopkeeper will shoot me? Sounds really fun.

OR, You decided not to buy it but instead try to steal it. Enter sneak mode. You succesfully snag the nuka-cola.

The steal skill is gone then? Great, so that's another aspect of the SPECIAL ruleset you want to fuck with.

If you have the 'gigalo' perk, you can sleep with her, in 3D. (Bring on the AO rating! )

So that's why you want 3D first-person Fallout. Because you crave jagged pixelated sex. Whoop-dee-doo. Get a life.

These are just my thoughts. Surely you can play the game in 2D mode. But 3D gives you more immersion of the game. I want to see the waste in 3D first-person mode.

Seeing as Fallout had more immersion that just about any first person game, I would surmise you are a stupid market sheep who either hasn't played Fallout or hasn't really understood what constitutes the game.

If everyone is like you who prefer 'the old-way', better go back to the stone age then. There will be no airplane (Man can't fly so STFU!), no TV (a box with moving image? How craptastic is that!), no cellphone (I can use my pigeon to send my love letter!)...


Innovation is what driven us to achieve our dream. To be the character of a game is why everyone wants to do. To feel the enviroment, the gameplay, the dialog. You don't need to join the army to drive that F-22. Falcon 4.0 can do that. You don't need to wait till nuclear war happen (let us hope it will never happen) just to survive in the waste as Mad max clone. Admit it, who doesn't want the holodeck to become a reality? Question

Look, I know what makes FALLOUT so special. It's not the graphic or the music. But it's the gameplay itself and story which seperate most CRPG game in the market. If 3D graphic (which might make it better) is available, why don't use it?

So you think Fallout should be a first person 3D game because first person 3D is "wave of the future", is that it? Good God, your mental incapacity makes my brain shrivel. Here's a clue: first person games with full 360° field of view first appeared fifteen years ago. First person view in general was invented almost three decades ago and is as old as gaming. RPGs have been using it since early 1980's. Isometric view in CRPGs, on the other hand, came much later as an improvement over the classic top-down view. Isometric view arrived as an *innovation*, as opposed to classic first person and top down view. Do you *now* understand the extent of your idiocy? You want to replace Fallout's isometric perspective - which represents an improvement over classic first person and top-down view - with first person perspective, because - in your blissful ignorance - you think first person in "innovative". Great move, genius.

Maybe they should have 2 kind of game-mode. 1 is for "Old-school and hardcore fans" (Isometric view! Turn-based combat! Fixed camera!) and the other "new and improve (Ahem..) with 3D and fps view!"...

I bet most will choose the old-school mode here..

Seriously, turn-based combat CAN be done in fpg. Richard Garriott's Akalabeth's been doing it.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

Maybe they should have 2 kind of game-mode. 1 is for "Old-school and hardcore fans" (Isometric view! Turn-based combat! Fixed camera!) and the other "new and improve (Ahem..) with 3D and fps view!"...

I bet most will choose the old-school mode here..

Seriously, turn-based combat CAN be done in fpg. Richard Garriott's Akalabeth's been doing it.

First of all, don't quote EVERYTHING when you aren't responding to it. Waste of space.

Second, you are basically saying "Make two games" you retard. The development necessary to do what you are talking about basically amounts to that anyways. I shudder to think what a game with a split personality like that would play like anyways.

 

[FeelTheRads]

"new and improve (Ahem..) with 3D and fps view!"...

You really don't get it do you? You really don't get it that 3d is not new nor is it an improvement (and in Fallout's case is a big downfall). I will speak in terms you might understand: in case you didn't know, Arena (the first game in Elder Scrolls series) was 3d and first person too. And that was in 1993. Four years before Fallout 1. Now, care to explain me how is 3d and first person new?
Also, you really don't understand that Fallout can't be first person due to technical reasons. Graz'zt explained it quite well, but obviously you are too dumb to understand a word he said since all you can think of is to masturbate on polygonal tits. But then again, by the answer you gave him you didn't understand or cared at all about what he said. You come here with your, let's be honest now, extremely old and idiotic ideas for Fallout and when somebody points you the truth, you can only reply OMG DO 2 GAMEZ!!1

As I said to another person here, leave your wet dreams out of Fallout. You can find 3d, first person and all that crap in other games. I simply can't see why there are people who want to transform Fallout from what it is and turn it into their own masturbation fest.

So, either have a clue about what Graz'zt said (you might even want to read the Fallout bible along with the rest of this forum) or stop posting. Your stupidity is getting really annoying.

Edit: And get through your skull the fact that if a game has the Fallout name slapped on it, it's not necessarily Fallout. Fallout: Tactics is NOT Fallout. Fallout: BOS is NOT Fallout. Can you understand these simple concepts?
Hell, I won't consider Fallout 3 a Fallout game anyway, but that's another matter.

 

[zioburosky13]

I see 2 groups of Fallout player here.
1 group will think that want to change Fallout, in the good-way. (Please.....obviously those who made FOOS doesn't play Fallout before. And I didn't play the game yet I know it sucks).
1 group will think that Fallout SHOULD be always in isometric-view with minor enchance elements.

And I didn't say Fallout: Tactics is another fallout game. It's only a okie strategy game. Please, spare me the flame..

I actually wish F3 never exist... On the other hand, the news of F3 is developing by bethesda just light-up my spark of passion of wasteland love. Trust me, if Bethesda screwed the game, at-least it will have an EDITOR to support the modding community. So... if you don't like the game, MOD it. Just like what Ultima fans doing for Ultima IX.

Fallout is not about turn-based combat, not about multiple ending, not about deep character development. To me, it's about SURVIVAL in the wasteland. Searching for hope to continue to live (Why the hell you need to go out and find water-chip and GECK?)

Just my thought.

 

[Sander]

Bah, how awfully simplistic.
Look, Fallout was more than just a post-apocalyptic game about survival. It's also more than a turn-based game, and more than a game with a good character system and development.
It's a combination of all those elements and more. Hence removing one of those elements (turn-based combat, as you're proposing, and the isometric view) would be removing something essential from Fallout, immediately making it something other than Fallout.
'But first-person view..'
Bah, go read the rest of this entire thread before starting an argument about that. Search the forum for previous arguments. DO this for the sake of you, so you won't get kicked off the board for being an annoying pest and not reading, and for our sake so that we don't get overly annoyed at seeing yet another topic about all these things that have been discussed to death.

By the way, your argument about editors is bullshit. I don't buy a game to edit it, if I wanted to do that I'd buy (or download) an editor and engine. Besides that, there are many, many mods in development for Fallout, yet I have yet to see a large-scale completed mod for it.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Fallout is not about turn-based combat, not about multiple ending, not about deep character development. To me, it's about SURVIVAL in the wasteland.

Surely if that's all that matters to you, if that's all you got out of the game then you'd be happy with any old shooter in a PA setting. For the rest of us Fallout was about all the other stuff, in fact Fallout is pretty much accepted as a benchmark for other games attempting all the other stuff. So why should a Fallout game be compromised when people like you, would be happy with any run of the mill PA FPS? Which you could go make yourselves with just about any FPS on the market that has the tools available.

 

[Ashmo]

Half-Life 2 was totally like Fallout. Y'know, except for the details of the setting and stuff.

Dood, Fallout Half-Life would be SO kyool.

...

Kill me please.

 

[st0lve]

I think I've said it before, but:

Isometric 3D veiw, so that you can rotate it in whatever direction you want. If you understand what Im thinking of.

 

[Ashmo]

I think I've said it before, but:

Isometric 3D veiw, so that you can rotate it in whatever direction you want. If you understand what Im thinking of.

Veto. Being part of the engine it will neccessarily be the part of the design and thus required in order to solve some parts of the game.

Thus forcing everyone to use the feature whether they like it or not.

Bad.

 

[zioburosky13]

Quote from Josh Sawyer:
"I am terribly, terribly sorry, because we are not going to make a game just for you. We're not trying to make a game for everyone. Really, we aren't. But we're not making a game just for you and ten other angry guys with tastes that are narrower than a hallway in a camp of pygmy dwarves."

Some how I think you guys are too hardcore till you have narrow your thought. It's like "Hey, why don't we put 3D items in the game?" And you guys say "Infidel!!! You must die!!" When I debate the same question with my friend, he agreed that Fallout should be in 3D first-person (oops..here comes the flame again. )

A good editor will prolong the life of a game. Just look at Quake and Half-life. Hell, even Morrowind has some good mod. too.

If game-developer has to follow EVERY thing what their fans want, there will be no more new game and the industry just chock on itself.

And you know what? Not many people actually like turn-based combat. I show Fallout to my friend and their all said "IT's a fucking good game. Too bad it's turn-based combat" Let's hope the developer will put real-time and turn-based combat mode together. . Like Arcanum.


Just my thought.

 

[Sander]

Quote from Josh Sawyer:
"I am terribly, terribly sorry, because we are not going to make a game just for you. We're not trying to make a game for everyone. Really, we aren't. But we're not making a game just for you and ten other angry guys with tastes that are narrower than a hallway in a camp of pygmy dwarves."

Some how I think you guys are too hardcore till you have narrow your thought. It's like "Hey, why don't we put 3D items in the game?" And you guys say "Infidel!!! You must die!!" When I debate the same question with my friend, he agreed that Fallout should be in 3D first-person (oops..here comes the flame again. )

A good editor will prolong the life of a game. Just look at Quake and Half-life. Hell, even Morrowind has some good mod. too.

If game-developer has to follow EVERY thing what their fans want, there will be no more new game and the industry just chock on itself.

And you know what? Not many people actually like turn-based combat. I show Fallout to my friend and their all said "IT's a fucking good game. Too bad it's turn-based combat" Let's hope the developer will put real-time and turn-based combat mode together. . Like Arcanum.


Just my thought.

Pft. Moron.
First of all, yes, we are all open to discussion. As you might've noticed from the fact that this thread has some 6 pages of discussion actually about isometric vs. first person.
But hey, I guess you don't like to read, huh? Like all of the threads that all inevitably state the following: 'A mixture of real-time and turn-based combat will ultimately turn out to be two half-arsed combat systems in one game.' Point in case: Arcanum, the suckiest combat system I have ever seen. A good game nonetheless.
Also, you apparently can't read that we have little problems with 3D graphics, the technological possibilities are greater than in 2D, but this doesn't mean that we suddenly want to give up, say, the isometric view. Why not? Because it is an essential part of Fallout. And gee, we're Fallout fans, we like that kind of thing.
And another thing you can't seem to possibly grasp: if you start changing a lot of things about a Fallout game, why bother calling it a Fallout game at all?

And an editor might prolong the lifetime of the game, it has nothing to do with the game itself. Why? Because every game has editors, simply because the game makers need them. Whether they're published and user-friendly is another thing. But all those things don't have anything to do with the gameplay in the game itself. An editor is nice and all, but I buy a game to play it, not to mess around with the editor or wait for others to finish messing around with it.

As for you saying that your friend not liking turn-based combat and wanting 1st person view means we're all wrong, you need to seriously learn what exactly is anything resembling a proof and what exactly is bullshit.

PS: Josh Sawyer wasn't the best game developer around, you know. Just because he didn't want to make a game catered specifically to us has jack shit to do with what we would have liked him to make.

EDIT: Ashmo, bullshit argument. Now, 1st person is a completely different thing, but incorporating a limited moving camera is not going to break any game mechanics. Nor does it in any way mean that that has to be used to solve the game.

 

[TorontoReign]

I liked the turn-based combat in Fallout, but honestly that's not the reason I liked it. I couldn't imagine it any other way though. 1st person would ruin Fallout. If you want 1st person apocalyptic action play a Halflife mod.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If game-developer has to follow EVERY thing what their fans want, there will be no more new game and the industry just chock on itself.

Guess what? The industry is chocking on itself for quite some time now, but of course you couldn't notice that. No, because whenever a new 3d technology appears for you it's innovation in the game industry and the games are better. Sure, pixel shader, bump mapping and all those increase the gameplay to spectacular levels! Oh, how is it that we were unable to see that?
Of course you are also unable to understand Fallout's art concept and that such a concept is extremely hard to be depicted even with the latest 3d technology.

And then you come with your turn-based vs real-time idiocy. What, real-time is another thing of the future, eh? Another innovation? Oh, my lack of god, when will the stupidity stop?

You know, you're really boring. You come here and posted your ideas, but not once have you explained why they would work better. Not once. Your only reason is that you like them and others might. Well, let me give you a clue if you are still unable to grasp it: We don't care! You've had your chance of saying what you want, now get the fuck out!
As others and I told you, you want PA FPS, go play some mods or stuff. Leave Fallout out of this bullshit. Oh, and speaking of mods, you come with another incredible idiocy (which, as the others, was seen before) saying that if you don't like a game you can mod it. No, really, genius, why should I buy the game in the first place? Just because it's called Fallout? I'm not a herd animal like you. I buy a game to play what it has not what I or others might do.

So, if you are unable to understand what Fallout is, what it should be, that changing the elements that makes it what it is will ruin it and turn it in another mediocre turd we're seeing everywhere these days (yes, that's what Morrowind is and that's what Oblivion will be) AND especially if you refuse to read what has been discussed dozends of times here on the same subjects, well, then just get the fuck out! You're not wanted here.

 

[TorontoReign]

* eating popcorn*

This is good. I love senseless violence and hostility.

 

[Roshambo]

Some how I think you guys are too hardcore till you have narrow your thought. It's like "Hey, why don't we put 3D items in the game?" And you guys say "Infidel!!! You must die!!" When I debate the same question with my friend, he agreed that Fallout should be in 3D first-person (oops..here comes the flame again. )

So? There is nothing about a P&P RPG about that view style, which would be an arbitrary decision and as others have pointed out, the mechanics do not suit that kind of gameplay, even if we were to suddenly forget that it was designed a certain way for a reason.

Besides, there really isn't anything "innovative" about using first-person perspective. It's been used by Wizardry, Might and Magic, and just about 90% of the dungeon crawlers over the last twenty five years. So excuse us if we call you a moron for considering this idea to be "innovative"

If game-developer has to follow EVERY thing what their fans want, there will be no more new game and the industry just chock on itself.

And stupid newbies like yourself fail to understand that moronic design changes, much like Super Avatar Brothers, is a good way to KILL off the series. If you couldn't tell, that is why FOT and FOS aren't liked. And now you want to stick your dick into that moron pie along with Chuck Cuevas. Brilliant.

And you know what? Not many people actually like turn-based combat. I show Fallout to my friend and their all said "IT's a fucking good game. Too bad it's turn-based combat" Let's hope the developer will put real-time and turn-based combat mode together. . Like Arcanum.

Too bad they are cattle that probably wouldn't like having to read in their game, either, so why the fuck should we care what some trouser stain and their friend want? Exactly, we don't. We also don't care for trolls that talk from both sides of their ass. Either you recognize the problems of moronic trend-chasing from FOT and FOS, along with many dead CRPG series in history, or you are wanting to change an aspect of Fallout for no reason other than you have a sudden brainfart, one that you can't be bothered to really defend logically.

Yes, we know what Bishop has said in the past. You know what? Considering he's now Romero's coffee bitch, I don't give a flying fuck what the amateur says, as his work on Asswind Dale 2, among others, leaves much to be desired. He wasn't any more brilliant with his defense of having to balance two combat systems, due to BIS' moronic mapmaking in placing a load of minor enemies into a mid-to-later area in the game. Now you're parroting a moron. Even more fantastic. Damn, anyone else want to top the latest stupid newbie tricks, or are we done pretending that we don't know how to read a forum?

 

[zioburosky13]

Fist of all, I won't call anyone here "Bitch", "Dick", "Dumbass", "Fuckhead", "Moron", "Scum". I believe anyone has the right to express their thoughts here.

However....

To say that F3 should be like Fallout with only minor change is actually killing the game. Remember, everything has to evolve to adapt and survive. Developer will surely want to know what their fans want in a game. But there are too many suggestion and they can only take some. Leaving the others to debate "Why the hell did their leave it out??"

That's why I still believe mod will prolong the life of a game. Think about it. What will happen if Fallout came out with an editor first??

And Roshambo? May I suggest a sticky of "READ FIRST BEFORE YOU POST THE SAME THOUGHT!!!" in this section? It might solve your "why didn't everyone read the god-damn forum first?" problem.

Just my thought.

 

[Sander]

Fist of all, I won't call anyone here "Bitch", "Dick", "Dumbass", "Fuckhead", "Moron", "Scum". I believe anyone has the right to express their thoughts here.

However....

To say that F3 should be like Fallout with only minor change is actually killing the game. Remember, everything has to evolve to adapt and survive. Developer will surely want to know what their fans want in a game. But there are too many suggestion and they can only take some. Leaving the others to debate "Why the hell did their leave it out??"

Gah. Are you really this stupid?
Again: if you change too many things, why bother calling it Fallout at all? Fallout isn't just one of those things, it's the whole of a lot of parts, and changing these parts irrevocably changes the whole.

That's why I still believe mod will prolong the life of a game. Think about it. What will happen if Fallout came out with an editor first??

Just my thought.

Must I say it again: an editor only prolongs the life of the engine. It has nothing to do with the game in and of itself, because the game is what you buy out of the box. If that sucks, an editor isn't going to make it any better. It'll only allow people to screw around with the engine, eventally resulting in a Fallout mod for an engine that's been outdated for about 4 years.

 

[zioburosky13]

Allright. Sander. Tell me, what, in your thoughts that make Fallout a special game? :

 

[Sander]

You really can't read can you?

Look, Fallout was more than just a post-apocalyptic game about survival. It's also more than a turn-based game, and more than a game with a good character system and development.
It's a combination of all those elements and more.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

This bugger just won't go away, will he?

Some how I think you guys are too hardcore till you have narrow your thought. It's like "Hey, why don't we put 3D items in the game?" And you guys say "Infidel!!! You must die!!" When I debate the same question with my friend, he agreed that Fallout should be in 3D first-person (oops..here comes the flame again. )

Besides proving that your friend is a fucking moron with no clue about game design, what exactly was the point of the example you cited?

A good editor will prolong the life of a game. Just look at Quake and Half-life. Hell, even Morrowind has some good mod. too.

That's why I still believe mod will prolong the life of a game. Think about it. What will happen if Fallout came out with an editor first??

Yes, because we know there is a brilliant game designer in every Morrowind player. Just when I thought I have seen the full extent of your ignorance, you continue to amaze me.

No, an editor doesn't prolong the life of a game. All an editor does is provide developers with an excuse for a rushed and sub-par game. Also, editors that ship with the game are usually simplified, limited in capabilities and inadequate for professional development. This allows even talentless and mentally challenged sheep like you to develop mods, but the end-result is inevitably totally devoid of professional quality. Even worse, sometimes developers use those same inadequate tools to develop the game itself, so you get shitty half-products like Neverwinter Nights, which look, feel and play like shareware titles.

If game-developer has to follow EVERY thing what their fans want, there will be no more new game and the industry just chock on itself.

To say that F3 should be like Fallout with only minor change is actually killing the game. Remember, everything has to evolve to adapt and survive. Developer will surely want to know what their fans want in a game. But there are too many suggestion and they can only take some. Leaving the others to debate "Why the hell did their leave it out??"

Let me tell you something - a competent game developer has the ability to distinguish valid ideas proposed by fans who understand the setting and game design from inarticulate brainturd like your own. If you had bothered to lurk these forums before posting your drivel, you would have noticed that we have suggested a *lot* of new ideas and improvements for Fallout 3, many of which would represent a drastic change of certain aspects of previous Fallout games. You, on the other hand, are proposing nothing even remotely new, innovative or intelligent. You want to disembowel Fallout by turning it into yet another 3D FPS because that's what makes you cream your pants. You purport to be a fan, but in fact you are nothing but a worthless market whore who likes games for shiny graphics and mindless action. You are the perfect target audience for insipid and dumbed-down spin-off crap like Fountain of Dreams, Ultima XI, Morrowind, X-Com: Enforcer and Fallout Tactics. You are a clueless kid, a troll and an embodiment of everything that is wrong with the game market nowadays.

And you know what? Not many people actually like turn-based combat. I show Fallout to my friend and their all said "IT's a fucking good game. Too bad it's turn-based combat" Let's hope the developer will put real-time and turn-based combat mode together. . Like Arcanum.

I'm not at all surprised, because we have already established that your friends are imbeciles. Though I'm glad you get to socialize with one of your own, I fail to see how mental incapacity of a bunch of half-witted idiots with attention spans of six-year-old retards, who are too busy salivating on the keyboard to grasp strategic and tactical depth of Fallout's combat system, is pertinent to the fact that turn-based combat is inherent to the SPECIAL ruleset and removing it would be akin to inventing a wingless airplane.

I believe anyone has the right to express their thoughts here.

You are wrong. This isn't a democracy. We don't have freedom of speech here. Nobody has to put up with inane nonsense that has been debunked seven years ago. If you want a free-speech forum, there are plenty of gaming communities out there that can accomodate your brand of stupidity. Don't bother posting here until you have an ounce of clue to show for.