A Fallout Game Set in Europe

Discussion in 'Future Fallout Game Discussion' started by WeissYohji, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Spaghetti westerns were still stories that happened in the USA or USA/Mexico border and with USA actors and using (loosely) USA history. Because they couldn't be played anywhere else, because they are westerns...

    I'm not overstating though, it's in the subtle messages.

    How about the levels of Patriotist that would allow to show a soldier executing a prisoner on TV, laughing and then wave at the camera, with a Patriotic logo of "Our dedicated boys keep the peace in newly annexed Canada". Then showing a proud Power Armored Soldier with the USA flag flying in the wind.
    Definitely a parody of the logos used in World War 2 news videos in the USA.

    Or the, "black and white Disney-like cartoon style" of the Vault Boy in the intro? Even the poster advertisement for the Vaults is totally in a USA style, the Call Now! with the art style for the people in it, even their happy facial expressions while a nuclear bomb explodes in the distance is typical of the american advertisement in the 50's USA.

    Or the Corvega ad on the TV. And even the style of the car is totally USA muscle car culture.

    And all of this is just in the intro of the first game.

    Then there is the capitalistic nature of the companies in the setting. Tell me, where else in the world do companies act like in Fallout (although quite exaggerated in it)? Can you have a Fallout in Russia or China that has companies behave like they did in Fallout? Can you have a Fallout in Europe like that?

    I mentioned the cold-war feeling of the games too. Apart from Russia (I assume), most other countries didn't really had this daily dread over their lives, this specific culture and reality. Which uniquely influenced the USA culture, and we can feel some of that in the classic games.

    Even most of the black and white images in the "War Never Changes" intro are American.

    There's a reason why most or all of the great TC's for the classic games still happen in the USA, even when those TC's are made by Russians and other European teams. Because otherwise, it would lose part of it's identity. Why would it be a Fallout game instead of "A *Insert country name here* Post-Apocalyptic game."?.
     
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  2. Eshanas

    Eshanas Mildly Dipped

    522
    Jul 6, 2016
    Cold War Europe had its own culture. France especially stood out on its own a lot of times, thumbing its nose at the UK and USA. Germany was 'get it done and over with'. Finland was, well, Finland. Spain juggled between a Fascist Hard Power apparatus being hedged in by a more liberal but relatively unarmed Civil Front. Italy was in veritable civil war between the Far Left, Far Right, and Centrists. Et al, et al. The Soviets loomed everywhere, terrorists ran around robbing banks, assassinating people, bombing stores, hijacking planes.

    Now imagine that for a hundred, hundred fifty years more, all uniting somehow, then breaking apart after marching off in a crusade for Israel and Oil. While the UK seems to be in a bad shape by 2277 still, something could be made out of Europe. (After all, Tenpenny might had simply lost a power struggle against the rich and powerful of his land rather than it being an absolute shithole). It just requires a lot of research, extrapolation, dedication, and genuine love. It'll also open up more than just Europe: the ME and the USSR will come to immediate focus, maybe with ME Death or Slaver Squads running around while Soviet Red Brigades march forward, or whatever.
     
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  3. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 26, 2007
    I think it would be like setting the sitcom Happy Days, in Antwerp.

    **One exception... but it still doesn't really work... It could be set at a US airbase, with many [borrowed] similarities to the Joseph Heller novel: Catch-22

    It's so easy to imagine this as a conversation between PC and an NPC talking head.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
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  4. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    So basically, all the Americana is in the intro and the later games. Fallout 1's actual gameplay and lore contains very little actual references.
     
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  5. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    The intro is what shines a style for the rest of the game.
    But there are also other factors.

    For example, it would lose the impact of the greatest/more powerful country in the world be reduced to ruins. It would also lose the impact of you playing in the remains of one of the countries that ended the world.
    It loses the impact of "the American dream" being shattered with all the riots and unrest in the USA, and the grim situation the country was in.
    I read somewhere, a while ago, someone saying that America in Fallout is like a character itself, although a posthumous one. I agree, it was one of the big players in the destruction of the planet and it was one of the big players in the problems before the apocalypse too.

    What impact would be to play a Fallout played in France or South Africa? Or in any other country for that matter?

    And while I don't like to go down "the Bethesda's way", but what would making Fallout in one of those countries bring to the IP that it can't if that game was in America?
    We can't use all the icons from Fallout. No Pip-boy for character stats and all of that stuff, no Vaults, no shadow government, no FEV, no FEV mutants, etc.
    So they would have to create all new stuff to "replace" the stuff they can't use, or rehash some of the old ones by going the lazy way of "this is a international company, so it exists in this country too", which might not work depending on how it's done and what country the game happens in.
    If they have to create all new stuff, what's the point of it being a Fallout game and not a new IP? If they have to rehash stuff, why make it in a different country then?

    Fallout games do have americana in them outside of the intro. I already mentioned the capitalistic way depicted in the games, that will feel out of place in other countries, all the retro-futuristic uses the American Retro-Futuristic style too, the vault boy style in the pipboy icons are still "Disney-like cartoon style". And lets not forget a very important thing about classic Fallout, they are retro-futuristic westerns. They feel like a western, which I already mentioned is one of the most American things possible.
    I managed to play ATOM RPG for a couple hours a few days ago (I liked it by the way, I really need to buy this one in the future). It definitely has a lot of influences from Fallout and we can see them right away, but it doesn't feel like a western at all and doesn't feel like Fallout either. And I think that is good, a Russian post-apocalyptic western would feel weird and probably quite forced/fake.

    I think I'm starting to go in circles now.
    How about you guys tell me how a Fallout in a different country would work and still feel like a Fallout game, instead of keep making me say why it wouldn't feel like a Fallout game to me?
     
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  6. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 26, 2007
    Devil's advocate: They could certainly use a continental version of the shadow government, a non-Robco PDA, a European style vault made by someone else —or actually sold to them by Vault-Tec...playing three sides of the fence.

    They shouldn't have FEV; unless explained as acquired pre-war, through espionage. It should be an early strain; in fact... if you think about it... they could have stolen it in a pair of raccoons.

    They should not have Jet at all; but could have something similar (though not chemically similar).

    They could have a European Vault-Boy... I doubt Germany would like it though, not if it was done with proper extrapolation and caricature. Use your imagination for a French/Italian/Soviet/German—ized version of the Vault Boy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  7. Squadcar

    Squadcar I'm spinning

    Jun 1, 2018
    I'll agree that the American isn't as overtly as it is in the intro to Fallout. Fallout has many things about it that are American or a parody of American culture. I mostly agree with what Risewild's saying but I think you could do a Fallout in another country albeit it would take a lot away from the feeling of the game at the same time. I think Canada, Mexico/Central America, or maybe Russia/China are your best bets for another country in Fallout.

    Canada and Central America are close to the USA and therefore affected by them even when it's not nuclear fire being rained down on them. Canada was even annexed so it could definitely have a set piece for a Fallout game and Mexico could definitely hold some good stories since Vaults were also nearby in America, at least somewhat close. It's also Mexico and it's not far fetched that someone like the NCR might make their way down there eventually.

    Russia and China would be more so a decent game setting for a "What happened to the other major player?" kind of exploration just to see what the war did to them and what they're doing about it over there.
     
  8. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    I tend to see the Fallout universe as a more general alternate history setting that will of course look very different in other regions of the world, but will still feel fallout due to the development of that alt-history. But I understand that especially Americans who are much closer to the minute details of Americana and tend to have not as much experience with other cultures' histories have a different view on it.
    Americana is important for the implementation of the Fallout universe in the existing games so far, but I don't see it as absolutely necessary, since I feel like it's interesting to see how other countries developed in that universe.
     
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  9. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    But it wouldn't feel right, it would feel like a ripoff of Fallout proper. That is why I said before that Fallout is a sum of all of it's parts. If you start ripping them off and making different versions for the same thing but for a different country... It will feel forced and lose the "magic" of the originals.

    But then we have the option of making new stuff, since making "replacements" wouldn't feel right. But if we make new stuff, will it really give the player the same feeling as playing the originals? There is a reason Fallout is one of the gaming industry IPs where lore is taken seriously (specially by the fans of the classics). If we start adding new stuff for different countries, it will overflow and lose a lot of that "fallout" feeling.

    If a Fallout game loses a lot of the settings the classic games had, will it still feel the same? For example, take Fallout and Fallout 2. The engine is improved on the second game, it's a bigger game too, most of the graphics are from the previous game, the story continues from the first game... And yet, for some people it already lost some of the feeling of the first game. If it was a Fallout in totally different setting, because it was in a different country, I think the feeling of what makes Fallout being Fallout would be lost way more.

    And don't get me wrong, I would love to know what happened to the rest of the world, and I would even like games showing what's happening there too, but I have no doubt I wouldn't feel like I was playing Fallout, but probably the same I feel when I play Tactics or Fallout 3... It is a different game with a "Fallout" coat of paint... Doesn't feel proper, something feels off.
    Doesn't matter how good this new game would be as a cRPG (and if it was good, I have no doubt I would like it), it would still feel off somehow. "Great game, not a great Fallout game".
     
  10. Squadcar

    Squadcar I'm spinning

    Jun 1, 2018
    As much as I'd like to see it as well Hass, I really think Risewild has a point with this. Maybe if we ever got a good cRPG for Fallout set in another country someone could prove it wrong but I feel like the larger sentiment would agree that it doesn't feel like Fallout. Hell, I don't even know if someone could make Fallout on the East Coast easily now that I think about it and Bethesda tainted the idea of it. People would think it feels too far off. Maybe it's just that feeling of the first game that's really lightning in a bottle to a lot of us. We'll never get Fallout 1 again.

    I'm all for another country, I just don't think it will be received as well and I feel like it would take more creative juices flowing to do it well. I feel like the real question that's to be asked now is, do you see the Americana as a very important factor in the identity of Fallout? Does it need to be there to be Fallout? I can understand why you'd say yes or no to this.
     
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  11. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    If we're being that strict, no other Fallout game besides Fallout 1 can really be "Fallout", since, as Risewild said, Fallout 2 already changed a lot about the tone.
     
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  12. Squadcar

    Squadcar I'm spinning

    Jun 1, 2018
    I agree. It's fairly strict, but I think a lot of fans like us see it like that because 1 was such lightning in a bottle. It was a difficult thing to capture, and it was here and gone in that moment to never be captured the same way again.

    That's a good and bad thing, if you ask me. It means that the game is unique and it's likely nothing will capture that feeling again but it also means some fans will always have some amount of disgruntled feelings towards new entries even if they're just as good in their own way even ignoring the location or setting of the game.
     
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  13. palmerwmd

    palmerwmd It Wandered In From the Wastes

    163
    Sep 10, 2009
    Remember folks.. Post-Apoc means all the big trade routes of the industrialized world are shut down...
    ..
    Switzerland has NO resources to maintain an industrialized society. All their resources would be pre war left overs and used up w/o replacement as they have little to offer in trade.
    A Switzerland works ONLY when its embedded in between other countries with whom it can trade financial services for resources.
    Remember Pre- 1900 Switzerland was the poorest country in Central Europe.

    Not gonna happen Post-Apoc.

    Austria on the other hand has a little bit of everything.. iron, coal, oil, copper, not enough to be a big deal in Pre Apoc where trade routes to endowd countries are open.. but in Post Apoc Austria would be a much better choice than Switzerland even though Switzerland is richer Pre-Apoc..

    The Nordic countries.. Sweden has no fossil fuels of any kind..so it cannot make use of its Iron and steel improvers unless Germany is recovered and able to pay in finished goods for the materials....

    Norway's fossil fuels are in the Ocean.. almost impossible to defend for a small country w/o grand functioning alliances such as NATO.
    Finland has a larger variety of materials.. none in huge amounts but a little bit of everything... plus lots and lots of lakes for domestic fishing..
    So Finland might be ok.

    Russia has a lot of resources but those are far apart the rivers flow north/south instead of east/west which is also not helpful to an economy.

    Ukraine ha s a lot (coal, iron, manganese, fertile land) in a relatively small country..

    UK has both Iron and coal on its Island... they will be fine if they are not nuked too much..
    France has relatively large area... might be ok.. but also no fossil fuels..
    Germany has coal and a little bit of oil in the North and a little bit of Iron (Harz ).. so might be ok if it wasnt Nuked too much..
     
  14. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 26, 2007
    ...And I agree.

    I am not generally in favor of a Fallout game set outside the US, but this is because the Fallout setting is a packaged deal—set in the US... It would be like setting Robinhood in Florida... and trying to keep not just the character archetypes, but all of their exact names, titles, and associated events past & then-present.

    Zorro is not set in England (or Florida), with focus on an archery bandit, and his band of merry hombres.
    Fallout can be copied, but it should not try to be part of Fallout; forcibly grafted on to —what is essentially a custom GURPS retro-apocalypse campaign setting with unique, and unusual physical laws that are not meant to stand up to close scrutiny; or the extended passage of time.

    ** All that said, (and this is not an endorsement) I think that Fallout can include other countries if (and only if) the treatment falls at least partly within 50's Americana... like... Panama, and quick furloughs to Tijuana,
    The Thousand Islands—Ontario; or [in Europe] parts of Italy and other places where active duty US servicemen were stationed in war time; with the setting central to the US territory there, with adventures in the surrounding local area.. not a full fledged world map where the PC can walk from Lisbon to Istanbul.

    ___________________________

     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
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  15. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    608
    Jul 2, 2016
    My point is that it shows how westerns aren't purely an American thing, nor is their aesthetic incompatible with Europe. Spaghetti westerns are also called Italian style westerns. Many were filmed in Europe. Most were not originally made in English. One might also note that westerns and samurai movies borrowed heavily from each other.

    "I'm not overstating though, it's in the subtle messages."

    Not overstating subtle messages?
    ...either they're subtle, and as such, not a big deal OR Fallout can't be detached from them because they're a big deal. Pick one.

    "And all of this is just in the intro of the first game."

    Yes, patriotism, propaganda, and old cartoon styles are a part of America...and tonnes of other countries that people pay less attention to. Unique flavor isn't a bad thing...nor is deviating from reality to set up the world the way you want. Europe could be more like America. Frankly the way the European Commonwealth is described, that already appears to be the case.

    "Then there is the capitalistic nature of the companies in the setting. Tell me, where else in the world do companies act like in Fallout (although quite exaggerated in it)? Can you have a Fallout in Russia or China that has companies behave like they did in Fallout? Can you have a Fallout in Europe like that?"

    Why do they already need to be that way? It's not like real world America is Fallout America. The timeline it's set more than 50 years into the future, of a timeline that diverged from ours just as long ago. I think the fact that the only two countries you mentioned are communist ones says enough about how shoddy this point is...

    "I mentioned the cold-war feeling of the games too. Apart from Russia (I assume), most other countries didn't really had this daily dread over their lives, this specific culture and reality."

    1. How do you know they didn't?
    2. Why does it matter? Fallout is not our Earth. Divergence can permit this exact thing to be the case.
    3.Please note the proximity of of the Soviet Union, which had much of Europe under its yolk, to all the other European nations as compared to America...and the aforementioned conquest of a swath of Europe as well as Asia.

    "There's a reason why most or all of the great TC's for the classic games still happen in the USA, even when those TC's are made by Russians and other European teams. Because otherwise, it would lose part of it's identity."
    TC?

    "Why would it be a Fallout game instead of "A *Insert country name here* Post-Apocalyptic game."?."

    Having the same art style, canon/lore, humor, freakish mutant infested post apocalyptic setting with retro futuristic soft sc-fi goodness, game mechanics, themes, etc...it can have its own cartoons, chauvinistic patriotism, oligcarhic corporatism, and so on. None of the handful of things you listed are incompatible.

    Lastly, why does it have to be the same? Why does it have to fit inside this particular box? Frankly I think you're quick to assume that it would feel wrong. More openmindness might do you some good.
     
  16. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    You're missing the point altogether.
    They are movies depicting American cowboys, behaving like American cowboys do in other westerns, that are set in America, following USA history... And you still say that they are not oozing with Americana?
    Doesn't matter who direct them, they are westerns, and a western is one of the most Americana thing ever.

    Also this discussion was not about if Fallout can be made by a studio that is not American, it's if it can feel like a Fallout game if it's in a different country.

    A western will feel like a western no matter who directs it. But it still feels like a western and has all the wild-west Americana. Just like Fallout has all the Americana in the classic games.
    Those subtle things are obvious things too.
    They are obvious to me and others, but as I found out by people replying to me here, they are not obvious to them, so I called them subtle, because some people don't seem to notice them.
    They might be subtle for some, but there are a lot of them. Look at my previous posts and you will get a ton of examples for them. All together, even if subtle for some, they are there and they influence the game feeling.
    Each country has their own style for those things, and those things in Fallout set the "ambience" and feeling of the game. If you change it to the style of a different country, the "ambience" and feeling will not be the same as it was in Fallout. That is what I have been saying from the start, and not only have I said it again and again, you guys don't seem to understand my words and make me say it again :whatever:.
    I don't see the European Commonwealth described like America at all.
    It sounds more like the European Union (since in Fallout universe, the divergence happened before the EU was formed).
    Also almost 20 years before the bombs fell, it was disbanded and it was every country for themselves.
    Definitely doesn't sound like the USA at all to me.
    Because Fallout's America is a caricature of our own world America. China is a caricature of our world China too, USSR is a caricature of our world USSR, European Commonwealth is a caricature of our European Union, etc.
    Do you think that 100 years of divergence would change the core of what countries would be? The change in Fallout is to make the national stereotypes exaggerated.
    So, no. I don't think any other country in the Fallout world would have those very American attributes.
    1. How do you know they did? If you can show me, from reliable sources any other country that evolved culturally, politically and economically, the same way as the USA did during the cold war. Then I concede the point.
    Here is a good and concise article about this point:
    https://tradshad.wordpress.com/writ...s-on-american-culture-politics-and-economics/
    2. Fallout was our Earth, only a century of difference. It matters because if you all of a sudden change the way countries are culturally, politically and even economically... Then it doesn't make any sense and sounds just stupid and forced. That is why all the countries mentioned in the classic Fallout games still act like they would in our Earth, albeit more exaggerated on the stereotypes.
    3.What does the proximity of the USSR has to do with anything? How would that make those countries feel like the USA?
    Remember, the debate here is why Fallout games can or can't be Fallout even if they happen in a different country. My argument is that classic Fallout games have the Americana feeling, have unique American only aspects and have America as a character itself. If you remove that, the game might be a great game, but will not feel like Fallout, because it loses a lot of that classic Fallout "magic", "feeling", "environment", whatever word you want to use. It will feel like something if off.
    Those things would be incompatible alright. Like I said before all over NMA. Fallout is not just the graphics, the lore, the writing, the RPG system, it is also the feeling you get when you play it, it's a "full package" game.
    If you remove or replace stuff with other stuff, it will feel shallow, it will lose the whole feeling, it will be like Bethesda's Fallout games (even if these new games would be great RPGs), because it would just feel like a weak and forced ripoff of Fallout.
    It would feel like it was a good game (if it was good, of course), but a bad Fallout game (I'm pretty sure I already said this just yesterday on a different thread around here).
    And I'm not the only one that thinks this, there have been a few other people here saying something similar. They think Fallout wouldn't really be Fallout in a different country, because it would lose a part of it's identify, feeling, whatever the word you want to apply.
    I am one of the most open minded persons around to be honest. I even welcome Fallout games in different countries (as mentioned before), but I know quite well what Fallout is for me, been playing the games non-stop since they were released... And making the games in a different country would not feel like a Fallout game to me. Even if it was a great cRPG and had great writing, C&C, same RPG system, graphics, etc. Because for me Fallout is not just a RPG with those characteristics, to me Fallout is also the "feeling" I get when playing the games. And that would be gone/different.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
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  17. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    608
    Jul 2, 2016
    No, you're just not addressing what I'm actually saying.

    And? So it's not exactly the same? Why does this matter? You just keep saying 'that's not the way it is'. 'The feeling would be different'. We're discussing 'what if: something different'. That's the topic. We already know that much. So, maybe don't complain about 'having' to repeat yourself if you're just repeating the same non-argument over and over.

    "Also almost 20 years before the bombs fell, it was disbanded and it was every country for themselves.
    Definitely doesn't sound like the USA at all to me."

    I'm pretty sure America collapses when the bombs fall...and was experiencing food shortages, riots, and martial law in a system of commonwealths that further divided an already fractured country...So Europe gets to the apocalypse a bit sooner and with clearer divisons. So what? That they fall to infighting prior to wouldn't mean no more raiders, people settling in ruins or building ctiies of junk, tribal villages, shelter dwellers returning to the surface, old military and scientific facilities being explored, or anything else that you actually experience during a Fallout game.

    Instead of 'America was at war with various countries and then the bombs fell' it would be '[a European country] was at war with various countries and then the bombs fell'. Instead of 'this and many other places you won't be seeing used to all be a republic', it would be 'this and many other places you won't be seeing used to all basically be a confederation'. So what? It's different. It's not the exact same. So....what?

    "Because Fallout's America is a caricature of our own world America."

    Of its past, to an extent...so what? Caricature are exaggerations. They involve artistic license. The artist chooses what parts to amplify and which to downplay for various purposes. Some are flattering. Some are insulting. So, by virtue of calling it a caricature, you have indicated that it isn't our world. In that case Fallout doesn't need to conform to our world, it just needs to have a frame of reference from which to exaggerate and diminish as desired. That plus 100 years equals plenty of room for all the right elements.

    "Do you think that 100 years of divergence would change the core of what countries would be?"

    Maybe history is filled with radical shifts occurring in less than a century. It might even be the case that more than one radical shift can occur in less than a century. Just maybe.

    "The change in Fallout is to make the national stereotypes exaggerated."

    Based on all of two countries actually being explored to any meaningful extent? America, China, everything else is practically a black hole.

    This is also kind of a circular argument here. 'Fallout has to be American, because Fallout can't be in places that are not like America. Other places can't be like America in Fallout because Fallout has to be American, because Fallout can't be in places that are not like America...' It's a bit of a non-sequitur but that's about all you've really stated so far.

    "1. How do you know they did? "

    I'll make my arguments, and you make yours. You made a knowledge claim. I asked you how you knew something. If you can't show your work, then I'll continue to disregard it as a bald assertion.

    "If you can show me, from reliable sources any other country that evolved culturally, politically and economically, the same way as the USA did during the cold war. Then..."

    Then I'd be wiling to let you move the goalposts, and shift the burden of proof. Phrasing it in the negative doesn't make it negative. You weren't responding to someone saying Europe that did. It wasn't a rejection of a knowledge claim, but a statement of one. That predicated your point in knowing what it was like in Europe. So what was it like? Either you know or you don't. If you do, then tell us. If you don't, then you made an argument in bad faith that you can't backup. Enough chicanery.

    "2. Fallout was our Earth, only a century of difference."

    Yes "only". It's not like post WW2 was a pivotal period in history or anything. Or that physics in Fallout works differently. And let's not pretend that their technological development went down a totally different path or anything. It's certainly not the case that culture would end up on a different path. Nope. Chaos theory is total bullshit. Butterly shmutterly effects.

    "...all the countries mentioned in the classic Fallout games still act like they would in our Earth"

    Other countries are barely a footnote in the classics....and are you now suggesting that cold war era France or Germany (LOL), etc would do the same things as modern day France and Germany?

    "3.What does the proximity of the USSR has to do with anything?"
    "this daily dread"

    You're really not making it easy to keep my snark to a minimum, but I'll--

    "My argument is that classic Fallout games have the Americana feeling, have unique American only aspects and have America as a character itself."

    Dang. There's no easy way to put this. It sounds like your argument is predicated on America being a very special snowflake.

    "If you remove that, the game might be a great game, but will not feel like Fallout"

    To you. No offense, but that's how feelings work.

    "Fallout is not just the graphics, the lore, the writing, the RPG system, it is also"

    Nostalgia? Since you're talking about the qualia of your experience, which is entirely unique to you and not actually a facet of the game, I'm pretty sure this has something to do with nostalgia.
     
  18. Valdetiosi

    Valdetiosi Valde

    321
    Jul 14, 2017
    Fallout game set in europe is basically radiation on top of ice age.
    So if anything the game would have open to be like Thing - styled game, except not in isolated north pole.
     
  19. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Mate, you're just proving my point... If you make a different game, that feels different when playing it... Then it's not a "Fallout" game. That's what I have been saying over and over and you still say stuff that prove that.
    Also notice how I always say "to/for ME". Because for me Fallout is not just trimetric turn based cRPG, it's the entirety of it including the feeling of the game. If you change that feeling, then I'm not playing Fallout, so having a "Fallout game set in Europe" does not work for me. Because I would be playing "Random Post-apocalyptic game with a Fallout name" and not "Fallout game set in Europe". How many times do I have to repeat this?
    That makes absolutely no sense at all.
    What does the collapse of the USA after the bombs have to do with the collapse of the European Commonwealth 20 years before the bombs?
    Where does it say that any European country was experiencing food shortages, riots and martial law?
    Where does it say that the USA declined into a state of having countries with their own cultures based on hundreds or thousands years of history abandon an alliance and focus on themselves?
    Where does it say Europe had the apocalypse sooner? Never seen that anywhere. Just because countries turn to themselves first and decide to leave an alliance, doesn't mean that they are in the apocalypse. They do that so they don't have to share their resources with each other. So they can save themselves while not caring for the neighbor next door.
    You really show a lack of understanding of the Fallout world.
    America also wasn't at war with several enemies when the bombs fell, only with China.
    It's totally different. And again, your point was that the USA was the same as the European Commonwealth, but now you turn around and say it's not the same so what? This is why it's frustrating debating with you, you say argument, I counter argument, you then counter argument with stuff that contradicts your first argument. How am I supposed to take you seriously or go to the effort of spending a lot of time typing replies to you, when I know you will just dismiss and even throw out/say the opposite of your own past arguments in future replies to me?
    You know what, I have been doing nothing but repeating myself while replaying to you, I hate repeating myself over and over, but I still do it because I feel like I'm rude by ignoring the person's post if I don't reply back. But I'm too tired to continue typing the same things over and over and then read your post and you are posting against your own previous arguments... This will be the last reply I will make unless you come up with something that does not contradict your previous posts and/or something new, where I don't have to say the same thing using different words to reply.
    So, caricatures are exaggerations of the real countries, but we can take artistic license to do whatever we want? That is wrong, caricatures are exaggerations of unique traits that already stand out.
    You can't have someone with a large nose being depicted in a caricature with a tiny nose, no matter what artistic license you take. Because the whole point of caricatures is for the caricature to be recognizable at a glance.
    It doesn't leave plenty of room for the right elements unless those elements are still based on the real elements.
    You can't change the traits so much that the country will not be recognizable at a glance anymore. Would the UK all of a sudden become a super capitalist country like the USA make sense? Would it have the "UK dream" flavor of the USA make any sense at all?
    It would be different and would break that "Fallout" feeling I would have playing. I would go "Why does this game changes the UK in this manner? Why is this even called Fallout and not "UK - Unruly Killing. A post apocalyptic game set in England"?
    I could go and play Mad Max, and decided to call it "Fallout Australia" and it would be pretty much the same feeling... It would not be Fallout except in name.
    Ok, if you say so then show me where history is full of those things, where a civilization changed culturally so radically in 100 years. Bonus points if it's in modern times like Fallout is set.
    We have information on other countries. Germany and Belgium were more advanced in weaponry than the USA. The USSR was in good terms with the USA, which implies that the USSR was stable, because it didn't need the USA oil fields and didn't collapse before that. The Middle East nations run out of oil, which was the source of their riches, then Tel Aviv was destroyed by a nuclear terror attack, and then a the Middle East got destroyed by nuclear weapons (before the great war).
    And this is all from memory, I bet there are more information if one is to research the matter.
    Yes, because for me if it is not in America it loses the whole Fallout feeling. I explained using long and short sentences why that would be, now if you want to define what Fallout is for me, go ahead.
    Let me tell you again FOR ME Fallout lose a large part of it's identity if it's not in America, why? Because of the long walls of text I previously wrote.
    While all you say is "Nope. It can be Fallout in different countries, it's just different." :confused: If something is different, then it's not really the same now, is it? :scratch:
    Look at Bethesda's Fallout games. They are in America and they are Fallout games... But I never felt the Fallout feeling from them. And it's not because they are 3D and shooters. Feeling a setting, world, environment doesn't need the same style of gameplay (at least not for me).
    For example, to me, Neverwinter Nights games have a more Baldur's Gate feeling than Icewind Dale games. Icewind Dale games are made using the same engine, the first one uses the same D&D ruleset, they are also isometric games, in the same universe, made by the same developers, etc... And yet, Neverwinter Nights feels more like Baldur's Gate to me, even though the writing sucks, it's in 3D (with bad graphics, specially compared to Baldur's Gate), uses a different D&D ruleset, etc.
    Mate, I even posted a concise article about the unique cultural, economic and political changes that the cold war caused in the USA. While you just use your words. I'm sorry, but your words are not good enough when you keep changing your arguments to fit whatever narrative you mean at that moment, even if they contradict your previous arguments. This is why it's so exhausting debating with you. I seem to do all the work and effort, then I feel like you don't really read what I say because you then say stuff that support my arguments without even realizing, then I post something supporting what I'm saying and ask you to show me something supporting what you say and I get nothing in return with the exception of "Gimme proof" after I did. :shock:
    Believe it or not, I actually have a life outside of NMA and replying to you take a bit of time, because while I'm replying I usually go around and research stuff to make sure my points are supported or right. But I decided there's no point in doing this anymore, just a waste of time because the other side will just not even understand my point or contradict themselves one post later.
    A waste of time to be honest.
    Sure, and tell me how many countries really changed so much after WW2? Germany changed for sure, Japan too. But were those changes so contrary to what those countries were before that we can't recognize them anymore? What other countries totally changed political, culturally and economically, that they can't be recognized because of WW2?
    That was my argument, in 100 years, no country will change so much that is instead something totally different. Like turning Italy into a USA-like, or turning Australia into a China-like.
    Your argument, after all, was that any country where a Fallout game happens, could still behave like the USA in Fallout does. Because 100 years. :roll:
    And here you are misunderstanding (LOL). Definitely not even reading my sources or my post.
    Where did I ever said that the countries were behaving the same as in the Cold War? :seriouslyno: I said, where in the world is another country that changed/evolved/was influenced culturally, politically and economicaly so much and in such a way as the USA did? Influenced as in... Changed what it was and it is now quite different because of the cold war... Not it was different during the cold war :facepalm:.
    Yes, the dread in the USA was different and unique to the USA. That was my point. Even countries near USSR didn't have the same kind of dread, the kind that totally changes how that country will go into the future, the kind that actually changes the country in so many deep levels that it ends up shaping what the USA in Fallout world is (and even in our world).
    Ahahahah. Special snowflake. Oh no, I'm defeated now.
    Americana is part of the games weather you like it or not, it's there since the first game and it's all over the place (although some people don't seem to notice). I mentioned a lot of examples of Americana, and you never debunked even one. Americana is part of the Fallout feeling because it's such a unique part of the games.
    If you remove it or force it to apply to a different country (like you said before, that it could be done) it will feel like a shallow, sad and idiotic attempt to capture the original Fallout. :lol: In sum, it will be crap.
    Yes, to me. The whole point I'm making is that "TO ME", a Fallout game set in Europe will not be a Fallout game because Fallout is more than a game, it's also a feeling when you play the game.
    I don't know why you keep trying to tell me, what Fallout should be FOR ME. Quite rude to be honest :P .
    And I also know I'm not unique in this Fallout feeling, because there are others around NMA that already expressed the same opinion, so it's not like I'm weird and unique in this aspect. :shrug:
    It has nothing to do with nostalgia, I play the classic games regularly, Fallout once every two years (will play it again today) and Fallout 2 every year (will play it around June).
    And again, you finally seem to understand what I always said, and why I first posted on this thread about if Fallout in Europe would be a Fallout game, because "FOR ME", it wouldn't. And explained why. Again and again.
    But this is the last time. There's no point in debating personal experiences and feelings. At first I was explaining why I said what I said, because it was my opinion. So I was explaining it to you, but I had enough and I already said the same thing over and over anyway. if you still don't get it, then I can't do anything about it. Just don't think I'm being rude when I don't reply anymore. :twitch:
     
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  20. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    gotta agree with rise on this one.

    setting a fallout game in Europe removes too much of the fallout branding. hell just moving it to the east coast created huge problems that were lazily solved with "ah fuck it just shove west coast stuff in there".
     
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