And? So it's not exactly the same? Why does this matter? You just keep saying 'that's not the way it is'. 'The feeling would be different'. We're discussing 'what if: something different'. That's the topic. We already know that much. So, maybe don't complain about 'having' to repeat yourself if you're just repeating the same non-argument over and over.
Mate, you're just proving my point... If you make a different game, that feels different when playing it... Then it's not a "Fallout" game. That's what I have been saying over and over and you still say stuff that prove that.
Also notice how I always say "to/for ME". Because for me Fallout is not just trimetric turn based cRPG, it's the entirety of it including the feeling of the game. If you change that feeling, then I'm not playing Fallout, so having a "Fallout game set in Europe" does not work for me. Because I would be playing "Random Post-apocalyptic game with a Fallout name" and not "Fallout game set in Europe". How many times do I have to repeat this?
I'm pretty sure America collapses when the bombs fall...and was experiencing food shortages, riots, and martial law in a system of commonwealths that further divided an already fractured country...So Europe gets to the apocalypse a bit sooner and with clearer divisons. So what? That they fall to infighting prior to wouldn't mean no more raiders, people settling in ruins or building ctiies of junk, tribal villages, shelter dwellers returning to the surface, old military and scientific facilities being explored, or anything else that you actually experience during a Fallout game.
Instead of 'America was at war with various countries and then the bombs fell' it would be '[a European country] was at war with various countries and then the bombs fell'. Instead of 'this and many other places you won't be seeing used to all be a republic', it would be 'this and many other places you won't be seeing used to all basically be a confederation'. So what? It's different. It's not the exact same. So....what?
That makes absolutely no sense at all.
What does the collapse of the USA after the bombs have to do with the collapse of the European Commonwealth 20 years before the bombs?
Where does it say that any European country was experiencing food shortages, riots and martial law?
Where does it say that the USA declined into a state of having countries with their own cultures based on hundreds or thousands years of history abandon an alliance and focus on themselves?
Where does it say Europe had the apocalypse sooner? Never seen that anywhere. Just because countries turn to themselves first and decide to leave an alliance, doesn't mean that they are in the apocalypse. They do that so they don't have to share their resources with each other. So they can save themselves while not caring for the neighbor next door.
You really show a lack of understanding of the Fallout world.
America also wasn't at war with several enemies when the bombs fell, only with China.
It's totally different. And again, your point was that the USA was the same as the European Commonwealth, but now you turn around and say it's not the same so what? This is why it's frustrating debating with you, you say argument, I counter argument, you then counter argument with stuff that contradicts your first argument. How am I supposed to take you seriously or go to the effort of spending a lot of time typing replies to you, when I know you will just dismiss and even throw out/say the opposite of your own past arguments in future replies to me?
You know what, I have been doing nothing but repeating myself while replaying to you, I hate repeating myself over and over, but I still do it because I feel like I'm rude by ignoring the person's post if I don't reply back. But I'm too tired to continue typing the same things over and over and then read your post and you are posting against your own previous arguments... This will be the last reply I will make unless you come up with something that does not contradict your previous posts and/or something new, where I don't have to say the same thing using different words to reply.
Of its past, to an extent...so what? Caricature are exaggerations. They involve artistic license. The artist chooses what parts to amplify and which to downplay for various purposes. Some are flattering. Some are insulting. So, by virtue of calling it a caricature, you have indicated that it isn't our world. In that case Fallout doesn't need to conform to our world, it just needs to have a frame of reference from which to exaggerate and diminish as desired. That plus 100 years equals plenty of room for all the right elements.
So, caricatures are exaggerations of the real countries, but we can take artistic license to do whatever we want? That is wrong, caricatures are exaggerations of unique traits that already stand out.
You can't have someone with a large nose being depicted in a caricature with a tiny nose, no matter what artistic license you take. Because the whole point of caricatures is for the caricature to be recognizable at a glance.
It doesn't leave plenty of room for the right elements unless those elements are still based on the real elements.
You can't change the traits so much that the country will not be recognizable at a glance anymore. Would the UK all of a sudden become a super capitalist country like the USA make sense? Would it have the "UK dream" flavor of the USA make any sense at all?
It would be different and would break that "Fallout" feeling I would have playing. I would go "Why does this game changes the UK in this manner? Why is this even called Fallout and not "UK - Unruly Killing. A post apocalyptic game set in England"?
I could go and play Mad Max, and decided to call it "Fallout Australia" and it would be pretty much the same feeling... It would not be Fallout except in name.
Maybe history is filled with radical shifts occurring in less than a century. It might even be the case that more than one radical shift can occur in less than a century. Just maybe.
Ok, if you say so then show me where history is full of those things, where a civilization changed culturally so radically in 100 years. Bonus points if it's in modern times like Fallout is set.
Based on all of two countries actually being explored to any meaningful extent? America, China, everything else is practically a black hole.
We have information on other countries. Germany and Belgium were more advanced in weaponry than the USA. The USSR was in good terms with the USA, which implies that the USSR was stable, because it didn't need the USA oil fields and didn't collapse before that. The Middle East nations run out of oil, which was the source of their riches, then Tel Aviv was destroyed by a nuclear terror attack, and then a the Middle East got destroyed by nuclear weapons (before the great war).
And this is all from memory, I bet there are more information if one is to research the matter.
This is also kind of a circular argument here. 'Fallout has to be American, because Fallout can't be in places that are not like America. Other places can't be like America in Fallout because Fallout has to be American, because Fallout can't be in places that are not like America...' It's a bit of a non-sequitur but that's about all you've really stated so far.
Yes, because for me if it is not in America it loses the whole Fallout feeling. I explained using long and short sentences why that would be, now if you want to define what Fallout is for me, go ahead.
Let me tell you again FOR ME Fallout lose a large part of it's identity if it's not in America, why? Because of the long walls of text I previously wrote.
While all you say is "Nope. It can be Fallout in different countries, it's just different."
If something is different, then it's not really the same now, is it?
Look at Bethesda's Fallout games. They are in America and they are Fallout games... But I never felt the Fallout feeling from them. And it's not because they are 3D and shooters. Feeling a setting, world, environment doesn't need the same style of gameplay (at least not for me).
For example, to me, Neverwinter Nights games have a more Baldur's Gate feeling than Icewind Dale games. Icewind Dale games are made using the same engine, the first one uses the same D&D ruleset, they are also isometric games, in the same universe, made by the same developers, etc... And yet, Neverwinter Nights feels more like Baldur's Gate to me, even though the writing sucks, it's in 3D (with bad graphics, specially compared to Baldur's Gate), uses a different D&D ruleset, etc.
I'll make my arguments, and you make yours. You made a knowledge claim. I asked you how you knew something. If you can't show your work, then I'll continue to disregard it as a bald assertion.
Then I'd be wiling to let you move the goalposts, and shift the burden of proof. Phrasing it in the negative doesn't make it negative. You weren't responding to someone saying Europe that did. It wasn't a rejection of a knowledge claim, but a statement of one. That predicated your point in knowing what it was like in Europe. So what was it like? Either you know or you don't. If you do, then tell us. If you don't, then you made an argument in bad faith that you can't backup. Enough chicanery.
Mate, I even posted a concise article about the unique cultural, economic and political changes that the cold war caused in the USA. While you just use your words. I'm sorry, but your words are not good enough when you keep changing your arguments to fit whatever narrative you mean at that moment, even if they contradict your previous arguments. This is why it's so exhausting debating with you. I seem to do all the work and effort, then I feel like you don't really read what I say because you then say stuff that support my arguments without even realizing, then I post something supporting what I'm saying and ask you to show me something supporting what you say and I get nothing in return with the exception of "Gimme proof" after I did.
Believe it or not, I actually have a life outside of NMA and replying to you take a bit of time, because while I'm replying I usually go around and research stuff to make sure my points are supported or right. But I decided there's no point in doing this anymore, just a waste of time because the other side will just not even understand my point or contradict themselves one post later.
A waste of time to be honest.
Yes "only". It's not like post WW2 was a pivotal period in history or anything. Or that physics in Fallout works differently. And let's not pretend that their technological development went down a totally different path or anything. It's certainly not the case that culture would end up on a different path. Nope. Chaos theory is total bullshit. Butterly shmutterly effects.
Sure, and tell me how many countries really changed so much after WW2? Germany changed for sure, Japan too. But were those changes so contrary to what those countries were before that we can't recognize them anymore? What other countries totally changed political, culturally and economically, that they can't be recognized because of WW2?
That was my argument, in 100 years, no country will change so much that is instead something totally different. Like turning Italy into a USA-like, or turning Australia into a China-like.
Your argument, after all, was that any country where a Fallout game happens, could still behave like the USA in Fallout does. Because 100 years.
Other countries are barely a footnote in the classics....and are you now suggesting that cold war era France or Germany (LOL), etc would do the same things as modern day France and Germany?
And here you are misunderstanding (LOL). Definitely not even reading my sources or my post.
Where did I ever said that the countries were behaving the same as in the Cold War?
I said, where in the world is another country that changed/evolved/was influenced culturally, politically and economicaly so much and in such a way as the USA did? Influenced as in... Changed what it was and it is now quite different because of the cold war... Not it was different during the cold war
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You're really not making it easy to keep my snark to a minimum, but I'll--
Yes, the dread in the USA was different and unique to the USA. That was my point. Even countries near USSR didn't have the same kind of dread, the kind that totally changes how that country will go into the future, the kind that actually changes the country in so many deep levels that it ends up shaping what the USA in Fallout world is (and even in our world).
Dang. There's no easy way to put this. It sounds like your argument is predicated on America being a very special snowflake.
Ahahahah. Special snowflake. Oh no, I'm defeated now.
Americana is part of the games weather you like it or not, it's there since the first game and it's all over the place (although some people don't seem to notice). I mentioned a lot of examples of Americana, and you never debunked even one. Americana is part of the Fallout feeling because it's such a unique part of the games.
If you remove it or force it to apply to a different country (like you said before, that it could be done) it will feel like a shallow, sad and idiotic attempt to capture the original Fallout.
In sum, it will be crap.
To you. No offense, but that's how feelings work.
Yes, to me. The whole point I'm making is that "TO ME", a Fallout game set in Europe will not be a Fallout game because Fallout is more than a game, it's also a feeling when you play the game.
I don't know why you keep trying to tell me, what Fallout should be FOR ME. Quite rude to be honest
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And I also know I'm not unique in this Fallout feeling, because there are others around NMA that already expressed the same opinion, so it's not like I'm weird and unique in this aspect.
Nostalgia? Since you're talking about the qualia of your experience, which is entirely unique to you and not actually a facet of the game, I'm pretty sure this has something to do with nostalgia.
It has nothing to do with nostalgia, I play the classic games regularly, Fallout once every two years (will play it again today) and Fallout 2 every year (will play it around June).
And again, you finally seem to understand what I always said, and why I first posted on this thread about if Fallout in Europe would be a Fallout game, because "FOR ME", it wouldn't. And explained why. Again and again.
But this is the last time. There's no point in debating personal experiences and feelings. At first I was explaining why I said what I said, because it was my opinion. So I was explaining it to you, but I had enough and I already said the same thing over and over anyway. if you still don't get it, then I can't do anything about it. Just don't think I'm being rude when I don't reply anymore.
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