A genuine, worthy sequel

[Tagaziel]

It's a fact, because, objectively, Van Buren has a lot more choices & consequences as well as a more complex structure than Fallout 3.

Do you mean the number of choices and consequences in the game? And give me an example the 'more complex structure' please, I haven't read any of Van Buuren's docs. I just watched the trailer and that's it.[/quote]

Here:

WHERE TO GO CONDITIONS
The player blew up the construction debris on the Rim, destroying the dam.
Goto 1
The player had the satellite fire on Hoover Dam
Goto 2
If the player brokered peace between Hoover and Mason's
Goto 3
If the player did not broker peace between Hoover and Mason's
Goto 4
Nothing done about the virus
Goto 5
PC distributes smooch through Dr. Yuri
Goto 6

1. Catastrophe! (WTG)
What took five years to build, only took seconds to destroy. In one fell swoop from a carefully placed explosive, millions of tons of water and concrete washed away the lives and ambitions of people who longed for a better future. Hoover Dam, in all its glory and engineering marvel, was no more.
Show crumbled dam face with green water cascading over jagged concrete and rebar.

2. SATELLITE DESTROYS Hoover Dam! (WTG)
Though the missiles of the Great War never touched Hoover Dam, the missiles of B.O.M.B. – 001 did. The atomic warhead incinerated everything. Now Hoover Dam is nothing more than irradiated sludge and scattered rebar, just like so many cities that fell victim to the Great War.
Show a smoldering crater.

3. Peace between NCR and BOS (WTG)
With peace came cooperation, and with cooperation came growth. Hoover Dam blossomed under the new peace between the Brotherhood of Steel at Maxson's Bunker and the NCR under Governor Joseph Dodge.
Show Hoover Dam's Rim with new housing and happy people mingling with power armor clad BOS soldiers and NCR soldiers.

4. No peace between NCR and BOS (WTG)
War, no matter how big or small, always has a high price. Governor Dodge and Hoover Dam could not maintain an extended war with the Brotherhood of Steel. Moral ate away at Dodge's men, and soon there was no one left to protect Hoover Dam. Governor Dodge shot himself as the BOS stormed through the front gates, and the NCR became a forgotten memory.
Show Dodge with a gun under his chin, an explosive exit wound on the top of his head, and a couple of Brotherhood soldiers busting through his office door.

5. Limit 115 goes unchecked (WTG)
Limit 115 takes its toll on Hoover Dam. Those who do not die from the plague, flee Hoover Dam when others perish. Half of those who choose to remain become sterile. Over time, the population of Hoover Dam dwindles, and no matter what mechanical or social successes came before it, the plague eventually wipes out another community.
Show ground perspective of the Rim; empty of life, with a child's doll crumbled on the ground looking at the camera.

6. PC distribute smooch through Dr. Yuri and never creates anti-toxin (WTG)
The impact that smooch has on te citizens of Hoover Dam is overwhelming. Soldiers, police, and the common citizens all succumb to the addictive pleasures of smooch. Soon, mechanical equipment shuts down, systems fail, people starve, and lives are lost. Hoover Dam eventually turns into a ghost town, complete with the rotting corpses of its former citizenry.
Show ground perspective of the Rim; empty of life, littered with clothed skeletons, with one skull smiling at the camera..

And that's just the ending. SIX possible outcomes all depending on player's actions (or inaction). Point me to a SINGLE instance in VB that has that many outcomes directly affected by you.

Having a good lockpick skill can open areas in the game where you can't venture unless you've got a lockpick skill, for example in Vault 106 (recent place I've explored).

Having a good science skill can yield you much extra information during the game. Mostly backstory and interesting stuff, such as getting to know that the Overseer in vault 106 knew about the release of the dangerous gas etc etc, and this could only be achieved with a science skill of 100.

So? It does not impact the game in any way.

Speech opens up quite a number of dialogue during the game, which can give better rewards, ending a quest differently, or getting more information out of someone. I've got no problem with speech other than the dialogue itself when you get a skill check, such as [intelligence], [strength], and [science] skill checks.

Which is what Sander said - with one or two exceptions, Speech is only useful for getting moar cash. Compare that to Fo1 and Fo2 where Speech checks galore!

Yeah sure, others are willing to shell out $50 for that. I play games for escapism for example, I guess you don't. So you're right, don't fork out $50 for that, I will though.

Nice way to avoid the point.

Remember that this is a sandbox game, it's supposed to offer limitless freedom with no restrictions. There are no rules and you play the game as you see fit. Have you played Daggerfall or Morrowind? It's quite similar, there aren't really any ingame rules.

Oh, for fucks sake. If there are no restrictions (and by extension consequences), then how is it an RPG again?

Do you mean consequences later on in the game due to the character you've created? I've found none as of yet (I'm still halfway through the game I think in terms of the main quest).

Don't hold your breath - there are none.

I wasn't looking for this argument to be honest, if someone doesn't see FO3 as an RPG and a fallout sequel that's fine by me, it's just a game, it isn't something which will affect once I log off from here.

I sense butthurt. Do yourself a favour and don't log on for a week to let your emotions go away.

 

[thefalloutfan]

Here:

WHERE TO GO CONDITIONS
The player blew up the construction debris on the Rim, destroying the dam.
Goto 1
The player had the satellite fire on Hoover Dam
Goto 2
If the player brokered peace between Hoover and Mason's
Goto 3
If the player did not broker peace between Hoover and Mason's
Goto 4
Nothing done about the virus
Goto 5
PC distributes smooch through Dr. Yuri
Goto 6

1. Catastrophe! (WTG)
What took five years to build, only took seconds to destroy. In one fell swoop from a carefully placed explosive, millions of tons of water and concrete washed away the lives and ambitions of people who longed for a better future. Hoover Dam, in all its glory and engineering marvel, was no more.
Show crumbled dam face with green water cascading over jagged concrete and rebar.

2. SATELLITE DESTROYS Hoover Dam! (WTG)
Though the missiles of the Great War never touched Hoover Dam, the missiles of B.O.M.B. – 001 did. The atomic warhead incinerated everything. Now Hoover Dam is nothing more than irradiated sludge and scattered rebar, just like so many cities that fell victim to the Great War.
Show a smoldering crater.

3. Peace between NCR and BOS (WTG)
With peace came cooperation, and with cooperation came growth. Hoover Dam blossomed under the new peace between the Brotherhood of Steel at Maxson's Bunker and the NCR under Governor Joseph Dodge.
Show Hoover Dam's Rim with new housing and happy people mingling with power armor clad BOS soldiers and NCR soldiers.

4. No peace between NCR and BOS (WTG)
War, no matter how big or small, always has a high price. Governor Dodge and Hoover Dam could not maintain an extended war with the Brotherhood of Steel. Moral ate away at Dodge's men, and soon there was no one left to protect Hoover Dam. Governor Dodge shot himself as the BOS stormed through the front gates, and the NCR became a forgotten memory.
Show Dodge with a gun under his chin, an explosive exit wound on the top of his head, and a couple of Brotherhood soldiers busting through his office door.

5. Limit 115 goes unchecked (WTG)
Limit 115 takes its toll on Hoover Dam. Those who do not die from the plague, flee Hoover Dam when others perish. Half of those who choose to remain become sterile. Over time, the population of Hoover Dam dwindles, and no matter what mechanical or social successes came before it, the plague eventually wipes out another community.
Show ground perspective of the Rim; empty of life, with a child's doll crumbled on the ground looking at the camera.

6. PC distribute smooch through Dr. Yuri and never creates anti-toxin (WTG)
The impact that smooch has on te citizens of Hoover Dam is overwhelming. Soldiers, police, and the common citizens all succumb to the addictive pleasures of smooch. Soon, mechanical equipment shuts down, systems fail, people starve, and lives are lost. Hoover Dam eventually turns into a ghost town, complete with the rotting corpses of its former citizenry.
Show ground perspective of the Rim; empty of life, littered with clothed skeletons, with one skull smiling at the camera..

And that's just the ending. SIX possible outcomes all depending on player's actions (or inaction). Point me to a SINGLE instance in VB that has that many outcomes directly affected by you.

I guess there's nothing else to say than "you're right Mikael".

So? It does not impact the game in any way.

So Do you not like extra options just for fun, without having any big ties with the main quest? You know, something just being there as extra content? The stuff found in locked computers was interesting to read.

Which is what Sander said - with one or two exceptions, Speech is only useful for getting moar cash. Compare that to Fo1 and Fo2 where Speech checks galore!

Like I said, speech is also useful to gain more information and end quests. Like in the previous fallouts, though to a lesser extent.

Nice way to avoid the point.

What else is there to say? I enjoy escapism, and I won't try to justify this in any way.

Oh, for fucks sake. If there are no restrictions (and by extension consequences), then how is it an RPG again?

I edited my post. There are restrictions, but to a lesser extent.

I sense butthurt. Do yourself a favour and don't log on for a week to let your emotions go away.

Your senses are wrong. Funny you say this when it's usually you guys who get your panties in a knot eh? No need to be a smartarse, I haven't acted like one in this discussion.

 

[Herbert West]

I think thefalloutfan guy is another one, who doesn't understand what's a fact and what is an opinion.

Fact- Black Sabbath was a heavy metal band.

Opinion- Black Sabbath was a first and true heavy metal band.

A rather bad example, sadly

 

[Sander]

Having a good lockpick skill can open areas in the game where you can't venture unless you've got a lockpick skill, for example in Vault 106 (recent place I've explored).

Having a good science skill can yield you much extra information during the game. Mostly backstory and interesting stuff, such as getting to know that the Overseer in vault 106 knew about the release of the dangerous gas etc etc, and this could only be achieved with a science skill of 100.

Speech opens up quite a number of dialogue during the game, which can give better rewards, ending a quest differently, or getting more information out of someone. I've got no problem with speech other than the dialogue itself when you get a skill check, such as [intelligence], [strength], and [science] skill checks.

Again: none of this actually impacts anything in the game, almost anywhere. All it is, is small amounts of additional loot, and some hidden information that is usually nothing more than 1 or 2 very small paragraphs, and almost always this information can be easily found elsewhere.

Again: there are a few small exceptions, but overall your stats don't really matter, especially not considering the fact that you don't really need to make any hard choices as getting your stats to decent levels is very, very easy as well.

Also, that Vault 106 terminal didn't require 100 science in my playthrough if I recall correctly. Not that relevant, but still.

Yeah sure, others are willing to shell out $50 for that. I play games for escapism for example, I guess you don't. So you're right, don't fork out $50 for that, I will though./quote]
You are missing the point. Being able to play pretend isn't a quality of the game, you can do that with anything anywhere.
Hence, why are you pretending it is a quality of the game itself instead of just a quality of how your mind works?

So Shrug Do you not like extra options just for fun, without having any big ties with the main quest? You know, something just being there as extra content? The stuff found in locked computers was interesting to read.

Consequences on the world is not the same as being tied in with the main quest. It just means that the world actually reacts in some meaningful way to your choices, regardless of the main quest (which, incidentally, didn't feature many choices or consequences either).

Again: see Harold. Before you finish the quest it is presented as a tough moral choice, with possibly consequences for the development and rehabilitation of the entire wasteland.
Yet whatever option you go with (except burning Harold which isn't presented with such moral ambiguity but just as evil), everyone is completely fine with whatever you do, and no consequences for the rest of the world (or even that little peace of the world) are shown.

Look, this has been explained over and over and over again on this forum, and even in this topic. Fallout 3 does not show any consquences for your choices, other than variations in loot

Like I said, speech is also useful to gain more information and end quests. Like in the previous fallouts, though to a lesser extent.

Actually, no, the information gained is minimal, and almost always the 'ending quests' consists of just being able to skip a very small dungeoncrawl and getting the exact same end result.

 

[Lichbane]

No. "The Earth is square" is factually incorrect. "Fallout 3 is a good game" is a subjective opinion. There is no right. There is no wrong. Just because it differs from your opinion, it doesn't mean he's wrong. It merely means his opinion is DIFFERENT from yours.

Wrong. The design of Fallout 3 can be compared to the design of Van Buren, yielding a very clear result: Fallout 3 is a bad RPG. And it's a fact.

That is simply a matter of opinion. If I was to say Van Buren sucked dogs balls, that would be my personal opinion. It doesn't mean my opinion is right or wrong. It just means it's different from yours. If you "a want very clear result", you just need to look at the various reviews around the place on Fallout 3 .... most of which are very high scores. However as those differ from your opinion, does that make them any less valid ... or does it make your opinion any less valid. No to both cases!

That's the problem with this world. People are too damn judgmental of others opinions. You need to respect that other people have a different standpoint than you. You may not like it. You may disagree. But it does not make their opinion any less valid than yours on purely subjective and non-quantifiable issues.

And none of your subsequent posts can convince me otherwise. I could simply say "you are wrong" .... but I respect your opinion.

 

[marko2te]

No. "The Earth is square" is factually incorrect. "Fallout 3 is a good game" is a subjective opinion. There is no right. There is no wrong. Just because it differs from your opinion, it doesn't mean he's wrong. It merely means his opinion is DIFFERENT from yours.

Wrong. The design of Fallout 3 can be compared to the design of Van Buren, yielding a very clear result: Fallout 3 is a bad RPG. And it's a fact.

That is simply a matter of opinion. If I was to say Van Buren sucked dogs balls, that would be my personal opinion. It doesn't mean my opinion is right or wrong. It just means it's different from yours. If you "a want very clear result", you just need to look at the various reviews around the place on Fallout 3 .... most of which are very high scores. However as those differ from your opinion, does that make them any less valid ... or does it make your opinion any less valid. No to both cases!

That's the problem with this world. People are too damn judgmental of others opinions. You need to respect that other people have a different standpoint than you. You may not like it. You may disagree. But it does not make their opinion any less valid than yours on purely subjective and non-quantifiable issues.

And none of your subsequent posts can convince me otherwise. I could simply say "you are wrong" .... but I respect your opinion.

If you read the whole conversation you would see that it was not about is Fallout 3 being a good game butif it is a good RPG and Mikael compared F3 design of C&C to Van Buren C&C which are far superior and that is not a matter of opinion.

Its like saying that Volvo is faster car then Ferrari when its factually incorrect, opinion is to say that Volvo is a better car than Ferrari.

 

[Sander]

That is simply a matter of opinion. If I was to say Van Buren sucked dogs balls, that would be my personal opinion. It doesn't mean my opinion is right or wrong. It just means it's different from yours. If you "a want very clear result", you just need to look at the various reviews around the place on Fallout 3 .... most of which are very high scores. However as those differ from your opinion, does that make them any less valid ... or does it make your opinion any less valid. No to both cases!

That's the problem with this world. People are too damn judgmental of others opinions. You need to respect that other people have a different standpoint than you. You may not like it. You may disagree. But it does not make their opinion any less valid than yours on purely subjective and non-quantifiable issues.

And none of your subsequent posts can convince me otherwise. I could simply say "you are wrong" .... but I respect your opinion.

This has nothing to do with opinion, but with an evaluation of the term RPG.

Which could be argued is somewhat up for debate/subject to opinion, as some people consider anything with stats in it to be RPGs.

But, when you look at the qualification for RPGs usually used around here (which is the amount of choices and their consequences), Fallout 3 certainly doesn't do well.

Note that most magazines do not classify Fallout 3 as an RPG but as an Action RPG, nor do they review based on how well it fits the criteria of RPG, so the argument that it's a good RPG because it's getting high scores is nonsensical.

 

[thefalloutfan]

On your last point, I classify FO3 as an action RPG. I didn't think leaving the word "action" out would make such as a difference. aRPG, cRPG, dungeon crawlers, rogue like etc are all subgenres of RPGs, so I thought saying just "RPG" without including "action" would be ok. For next time...

Also Lichbane, I agree with what you said.

 

[Brother None]

On your last point, I classify FO3 as an action RPG. I didn't think leaving the word "action" out would make such as a difference. aRPG, cRPG, dungeon crawlers, rogue like etc are all subgenres of RPGs, so I thought saying just "RPG" without including "action" would be ok. For next time...

This is kind of a touchy subject, because of the way RPG is defined...that is to say, it isn't.

If I walk into a video game store, pick up a random game and ask the clerk "what is this", if he says "FPS" I immediately know what kind of gameplay it has. If he says "RPG" what do I know? It probably has stats, but even Space Siege is called an action RPG and it has no stats, so even that's not assured. It will likely have a main plot, but Mount & Blade is called an RPG in its official PR yet it has no main plot at all.

That's why it's irrelevant to say Fallout 3 belongs to the RPG genre. Fallout 1 and 2 belong to the pen and paper RPG genre, Fallout 3 belongs to the action RPG genre. As an action RPG, pretty graphics and fun combat is more important than quality dialogue and quality storylines. In that sense, it's pretty important to make clear from what angle you're judging that game, because if you try to crowbar it into Fallout 1/2's genre, it's a miserable failure (which says nothing on game quality an sich, just about its quality as a sequel).

 

[Lichbane]

This is kind of a touchy subject, because of the way RPG is defined...that is to say, it isn't.

I agree with your statement. Herein lies the crux of disagreement.

It all comes down to the definition of what makes an RPG. If one was to get truly anal about it, you would find it very difficult to define ANY CRPG as a true RPG because of the lack of options available. You are still being channeled down a particular path that the game allows, despite the illusion of freedom of choice. Personally I think of Ultima VII as the pinnacle of CRPGs, but even there, choice was limited by what the programming allowed. You could say that the only TRUE RPGs are those that involve interaction with other people where you play a role that you have adopted .....

..... but lets face it: CRPGs, regardless of whether you like it or not, are evolving. Definitions have become more broad, encompassing whole sub-classifications including aRPG, MMORPG, and so on. They are still RPGs, but they have differing elements.

Soul, Jazz, Pop, Rock are types of music ... you may not like some of them ... but they are still music. Even when you get into individual Genres like Rock, you have Hard Rock, Indie Rock, Pop Rock ... it's still Rock.

Perhaps we need to be a little more flexible in our viewpoints.

 

[Brother None]

Perhaps we need to be a little more flexible in our viewpoints.

Who's unflexible? You're not making any sense, just because the word RPG is a broad term we need to be more flexible?

Fallout 1/2 was a specific subset of RPGs that Fallout 3 does not belong to. There's no being flexible or unflexible about that, it's the truth. And no, that isn't evolution or change, the same was true when Fallout 1/2 came out, you already had plenty of subsets of RPGs ranging from the action-RPG/hack 'n slash Diablo to the free-roaming action-RPGs Arena and Daggerfall.

 

[Lichbane]

Who's unflexible?

I think you just need to go back through the various conversions to see who is being inflexible ... especially when you consider some of the posters (even moderators) are declaring their opinions regarding what is a good or bad game as pure fact.

 

[Roflcore]

If you "a want very clear result", you just need to look at the various reviews around the place on Fallout 3 .... most of which are very high scores. However as those differ from your opinion, does that make them any less valid ... or does it make your opinion any less valid. No to both cases!

Wrong. Its paided advertisment. If it would be an opinion, people would write about stuff they do not like. they would write about the many bugs and flaws of fallout 3. characters disappearing because of bad pathfinding, railroading and an empty world is not something you can have a different opinion on. At least not if you want to be serious. If I say Quake 3 has a great story because I am right in the middle of it, you would say "this is your opinion"? No, this is bullshit I made up.
Bad programming is bad programming, and it simply can't be excused via "It's my opinion".

 

[Viliny]

I don't get why people have so much trouble defining these games.
It's pretty obvious that Fallout 3 is a action adventure game with stats and the possibility to skip or not skip some of the content.

F1&2 gave you the option of truly playing the game several times as a different person.

so Fallout 3 = AA-RPG and F1&2 = RP-RPG
with real roleplaying games taking a little damage to their genre because of broad labeling.

And of course, this is just my oppinion.

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

Ignoring semantics and whether the series was an RPG, FO3 and FPS and all that, the core of the argument boils down to:

FO3 is a good game (the scores of positive reviews cannot be ignored), but FO fans wanted more. Wether it is an RPG or not is besides the point.

Heck, I think it Bethesda had put the effort into it they could have made FO3 a fully fledged FPS and most people wouldn't have complained.

 

[thefalloutfan]

Wrong. Its paided advertisment. If it would be an opinion, people would write about stuff they do not like.

Not really, an opinion is just someone's views about a particular game. He doesn't have to list down the negative aspects of something for it to be an opinion.

Of course I'd rather read an article which lists down the pros and cons rather than just one of the aforementioned. And we refer to something as a "that was a good review!" if the reviewer shares the same opinion as us. When he doesn't, we'll say that he's wrong. Well a lot of people do this at least.

 

[Patton89]

Wrong. Its paided advertisment. If it would be an opinion, people would write about stuff they do not like.

Not really, an opinion is just someone's views about a particular game. He doesn't have to list down the negative aspects of something for it to be an opinion.

Of course I'd rather read an article which lists down the pros and cons rather than just one of the aforementioned. And we refer to something as a "that was a good review!" if the reviewer shares the same opinion as us. When he doesn't, we'll say that he's wrong. Well a lot of people do this at least.

Ok, so what makes it different from an paid advertisement if there is no real assesment of the games good sides and bad sides. and NO criticism ? That means it is not a review. It makes it worthless waste of time and energy. i want to see reviews with, i don't know , an actual opinion ? Review IS supposed to be a evaluation of the game, not advertisement by the games developer. This is one of the reasons why i really don't read reviews anymore, they are pure garbage these days. No game deserves 10/10. That is supposed to be the ULTIMATE game. Oh well.

Edit: the review isn't usefull at all, thats the main point. again i give Fallout 9/10. NO game gets 10, every game has its faults. In Fallout it was the graphics repetative nature and some minor bugs and crappy AI friends who shoot you in the back. Oh and the time limit. And some skills didn't have much impact in the game. And melee was not as usefull as it could have been.

Unless its AC/DC in a game form. With old metallica and slayer sprinkled on top. Then it should rule the world.

 

[thefalloutfan]

It's still a review, just not a well-thought out review. And a game gets 10/10 if someone really really likes it. I'd give FO1 10/10, and no one's going to change this. Doesn't mean I'm wrong, it means I absolutely love this game, and even though it's got its downsides, it's just so good (for me).

 

[Lichbane]

Wrong. Its paided advertisment.

Just keep saying that. One day someone else may believe that myth your pushing. I'm good mates with one of the reviewers from a high profile magazine, and not a red cent changed hands.

By your logic, EVERY review that gets a good score is simply a paid advertisement? That is one sad cynical view of the world.

 

[Patton89]

Wrong. Its paided advertisment.

Just keep saying that. One day someone else may believe that myth your pushing. I'm good mates with one of the reviewers from a high profile magazine, and not a red cent changed hands.

By your logic, EVERY review that gets a good score is simply a paid advertisement? That is one sad cynical view of the world.

Most reviews tend to be, i don't know , bit bland these days. They all scream about fallout 3 being the best thing that has happened this year. 10/10 ? no way, the sheer amount of bugs should make that 9 and the fact that its animation and dialogue are bad should drop it to 8.5, and theres the issue of the easy combat.
Not to mention the point that it is bad sequel to Fallout 2, they named the game fallout 3 and the developers kept saying that its a sequel.
So why are most of the reviews simply ignoring that ? there as to be some financial reasons, or at least some reasons to just ignore it. Sure it deserves some good scores but as far as i have played it, it doesn't deserve those number 9s and 10s. Just seems that almost every game gets number 10s and 9s. Its just stupid.

i really would't be suprised if the developers bought some of those reviews, or pressured some of the magazines to give good scores. Gaming is big business these days, and all big businesses have corruption of some form or type.