A genuine, worthy sequel

Which was the entire point: Fallout 3 may have many more location, most of them are nothing but empty shells or dungeon crawls.
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I can only hope those with the skill and the drive can turn some of these into true RPG worthy places to visit and enjoy. And perhaps find a way to clean up the juvenile speech choices :( Perhaps the later is a bit much to hope for.

Oblivion drove me nuts with the endless boring dungeons that somehow always seemed the same. And once I realized it scaled (after seeing brigands wielding daedric arms and armor) I was done.

I wanted an immersion into a dark gritty world where war never changes but perhaps man can and start fresh. Instead I got orcs, davey crocket rip offs, enough ammo lying around to stock an army brigade, and quests that left me going "wait, thats it, game over" No ending of what you did, why you where here :(

F3 was fun as FPS but as contender for the fallout crown not even close.


[/quote]
 
Sander said:
Bloody William said:
Meanwhile, on the Fallout 3 list, the "Wasteland Survival Guide" is listed as a single quest, though it has nine different, fairly complex parts with multiple ways to accomplish them and/or go the extra mile for a bit of bonus. Step-by-step based on the lists, it's no exaggeration to say that Fallout 3 has as many or more things to do than Fallout or Fallout 2.
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You misunderstand, this goes both ways.

Many Fallout quests are relatively intricate as well (Find The Water Chip, Destroy the Mutant Threat are single quests that are very, very involved and expansive), while many Fallout 3 quests are also very simple.

3 of Fallout 3's quests are supersimple quests in the first tutorial. The Main Quest is split up into 12 quests, all of which are very straightforward and simple. These 12 Fallout 3 quests are roughly equivalent to the 2 Fallout 1 Main Quest items, and are furthermore much more railroaded and straightforward.

Outside of those quests, there are a grand total of 17 more quests, excluding the 12 minor quests that are small (some of which are simply repeatable loot-trading).
Those 17 quests are indeed more intricate than Fallout's quests, but these 17 quests are all very local, and leave a large number of locations unmeddled.
Moreover, when you compare the number of locations in Fallout 3 and Fallout, Fallout has a much higher quest:location ratio.

Which was the entire point: Fallout 3 may have many more location, most of them are nothing but empty shells or dungeon crawls.
Click to expand...

I didn't count the three tutorial quests in the total for the reason you stated, and while you're right that the 12 plot quests are part of the overarching quest line, those individual parts tend to be fairly complicated and not entirely dungeon runs. At least, not more than Find the Water Chip (Necropolis dungeon run) and Destroy the Mutant Threat (essentially Cathedral and Mariposa dungeon runs). Meanwhile, besides the main quest steps, many if not most of Fallout and Fallout 2's quests suffered from the same case of being incremental steps or direct kill/fetch quests.

Beyond the specific, listed quests, there are plenty of other fun things to do and purposeful locations in Fallout 3. You can argue that many of them are dungeon runs, sure, but they're almost all unique. Vault 106 and Vault 108 don't have quests, but they're pretty darn interesting and amusing, and worth exploring. The Dunwich Building, Evergreen Mills, L.O.B., the alien crash site, the Bethesda ruins, all of them can be considered small things or dungeon crawls with little plot, but they're all unique and have good hooks, whether simply getting equipment or learning just a little bit more about the Wasteland.

Not all of the 17 side quests are entirely local, either. Moira has you shlepping across half of the Capital Wasteland for her book, and the Nuka Cola challenge is both a long-time scavenger hunt and an opportunity to both find the history of Nuka Cola and track down its distribution routes. Same with Mister Crowley's chore, which has you searching around the Wasteland for some people. Many of the other side quests don't start out local, and even when they're dungeon runs they're runs that have you trekking a bit before doing what you have to do (and hopefully finding some non-quest but still interesting locations along the way).
 
Bloody William said:
I didn't count the three tutorial quests in the total for the reason you stated, and while you're right that the 12 plot quests are part of the overarching quest line, those individual parts tend to be fairly complicated and not entirely dungeon runs. At least, not more than Find the Water Chip (Necropolis dungeon run) and Destroy the Mutant Threat (essentially Cathedral and Mariposa dungeon runs). Meanwhile, besides the main quest steps, many if not most of Fallout and Fallout 2's quests suffered from the same case of being incremental steps or direct kill/fetch quests.
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Er, neither of the Fallout main quests were as simple as you portray them. They consisted of finding out where you need to go, talking to the right people and they had multiple solutions and paths. None of which is present in almost any of the Fallout 3 main quests.

As I said, the 17 quests in Fallout 3 are relatively involved and intricate, and some of them are really good (Mr. Crowley's quest, or the android quest come to mind).
But that wasn't the point. The point is that, given the size of the game, there is really very little to do, since most locations are nothing but dungeon crawls.

And, as I've explained before, Fallout 3's locations that aren't tied to quests are really disappointing. Some of them have at most one or two computer entries with minimal background information, but most of them even lack that. Deathclaw Sanctuary manned by Enclave scientists? No information whatsoever. Bethesda offices? Nothing.
I came across at least 3 full raider-stocked forts, which were again just dungeon crawls with a bunch of enemies in them and no interactivity or information. And almost all of the wasteland is like that, which is a shame and a real disappointment.
The first time I found a Vault I thought 'awesome, maybe this will be like Fallout, exploring a forgotten ruin with neat stuff and information everywhere'.
Instead, I got just another dungeon crawl with a grand total of 2 minor computer entries, no special reward at the end, none of which didn't come close to satisying my curiosity about the place. And this goes for every such location in Fallout 3.
 
I'll agree that Bethsoft should have added more information and "flavor" items/text to the unquested areas (though if you hack into the terminals, they often have useful information about what happened, like the explanation and reports of Vault 106). The game really should have had more audio logs or at least text reports/notes. Morrowind and Oblivion had a ton of extra text in the form of the games' many many books, and I wish Fallout 3 had something similar, like more "notes" (with more text in each note).
 
They had the basis there, all the damn "burned large book", "Destroyed small book".

Sigh.
 
Pope Viper said:
They had the basis there, all the damn "burned large book", "Destroyed small book".

Sigh.
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Yeah... I'll agree with that...even in TES:O every book was readable... which was always fun...to see what people read when you snuck into their homes at night...and watched them sleep... :roll:
 
Roflcore said:
Bloody William said:
like the explanation and reports of Vault 106
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Please tell me you are not serious.
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I liked it!

[spoiler:4611bfefe5]Tripping balls while wandering through a vault full of crazy people, and then breaking into the Overseer's office and reading the records of 106's place in the Vault Experiment and the creepy, dark story of public service advisories telling everyone not to worry about any of it while the psychotropic drugs built up. Okay, Vault 108 was similar with the whole white noise experiment, but it didn't have you hallucinating.

I'll admit that 106 should have been a specific quest with a bit more fleshed out information and more hallucinations. However, for what it was, a minor, non-quest-related Vault in the Wasteland, something to just add a bit of flavor? It was good.[/spoiler:4611bfefe5]
 
I haven't even found Vault 106 yet, where is that located? I did like the FEV Vault, whatever that number was. That Vault was awesome in that it practically said nothing about what happened; though the history there was palpable.
 
I have the strategy guide, so I can look it up when I go home. But my internet filter here at work won't let me view the main NMA website, just the forum. Thanks for the link though!
 
Crowley said:
Just thinking out loud here. Specifically, Fallout 3 has got me thinking about what exactly I enjoy in the first two games. First, I would have to mention actually making a difference in the world. Looking at the first two games, most of the population centers had three or more endings based on how you, the player, handled things in there. A hopeless dying world in my opinion is not Fallout. After all if that were the case, what would be the point in stopping the Master in the first place? People manage to eke out their own little corner of existence and they make a future for themselves. That's why killing children is so bad, since they are what the future is dependent on.
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Yeah, this is what I've come to realize too. The fact that you could actually change the history of the world as you went along, deciding who would rule over certain towns and which direction they would take is what I'm coming to realize as the number one thing that made Fallout great in comparison to Fallout 3 in my opinion. In Fallout 3 you can't change the way things play out, and for that it is even less interactive even for all of its supposed freedom and character choice. Once again, not just hating, I like Fallout 3 just fine, but I feel like it's pretty empty when compared to pretty much any other good RPG.
 
Sander said:
Which was the entire point: Fallout 3 may have many more location, most of them are nothing but empty shells or dungeon crawls.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of things that don't show up as quests at all that may have in the originals. I don't think a wiki entry is the be all end all judge of content, especially when one game is only a week old and most people haven't done nearly all there is to do.

And if you wanted to be ticky-tacky you could break down a ton of Fallout 3's quests into seperate quests.. but does the number really matter?

It's all opinion what you think about the locations in Fallout 3, but if you go in thinking it has to be a quest or it sucks then you are missing the point.
 
betamonkey said:
Sander said:
Which was the entire point: Fallout 3 may have many more location, most of them are nothing but empty shells or dungeon crawls.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of things that don't show up as quests at all that may have in the originals. I don't think a wiki entry is the be all end all judge of content, especially when one game is only a week old and most people haven't done nearly all there is to do.

And if you wanted to be ticky-tacky you could break down a ton of Fallout 3's quests into seperate quests.. but does the number really matter?

It's all opinion what you think about the locations in Fallout 3, but if you go in thinking it has to be a quest or it sucks then you are missing the point.
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Nice mouth-stuffing there.
Where, exactly, did I say something has to be a quest or it sucks?
I didn't.
 
Bloody William said:
Roflcore said:
Bloody William said:
like the explanation and reports of Vault 106
Click to expand...

Please tell me you are not serious.
Click to expand...

I liked it!

[spoiler:f7d17196b0]Tripping balls while wandering through a vault full of crazy people, and then breaking into the Overseer's office and reading the records of 106's place in the Vault Experiment and the creepy, dark story of public service advisories telling everyone not to worry about any of it while the psychotropic drugs built up. Okay, Vault 108 was similar with the whole white noise experiment, but it didn't have you hallucinating.

I'll admit that 106 should have been a specific quest with a bit more fleshed out information and more hallucinations. However, for what it was, a minor, non-quest-related Vault in the Wasteland, something to just add a bit of flavor? It was good.[/spoiler:f7d17196b0]
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[spoiler:f7d17196b0]
forcing the player to search a vault which looks all the same just to find two notes which only contain "we use gas on people" adds a bit of flavour? Nope, its doesn't, it sucks. The whole place is empty. Not even explained why there are still people alive after the plays is been deserted for years. guess those insane guys just go out in the wastes every once in a while for food and water, just like everybody else does. in the supermarkets which magically refill themself. Or something like this. all in all you have to imagine some sort of story or logic in all this nonsense. not exactly my thing.
[/spoiler:f7d17196b0]
 
I'd also like to know how the folks in 106 reproduced, I guess they weren't so crazy as to forgot how to deliver babes.
 
Roflcore said:
[spoiler:75a44ecf86]
forcing the player to search a vault which looks all the same just to find two notes which only contain "we use gas on people" adds a bit of flavour? Nope, its bad. The whole play is empty. Not even explained why there are still people alive after the plays is been deserted for years. guess those insane guys just go out in the wastes every once in a while for food and water, just like everybody else does. in the supermarkets which magically refill themself. Or something like this. all in all you have to imagine some sort of story or logic in all this nonsense. not exactly my thing.
[/spoiler:75a44ecf86]
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Forcing? See.. that's just it. You aren't FORCED to do anything.

And please, let's not get into 'omg how can they survive' debate because you can nitpick the entire franchise to death if you chose.

And how do you even know those suriviors are real? I mean.. isn't it full of hallucinogenic gas? ;)

Nah, they must be real.. it must be illogical and Bethesda must suck.
 
Pope Viper said:
I'd also like to know how the folks in 106 reproduced, I guess they weren't so crazy as to forgot how to deliver babes.
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If I remember right there is no female survivor :/

@betamonkey
none of your points make any sense. if they are not real, how come I can sell there loot? Must be bethesda extending this illusion to everybody in the gameworld.

all in all you just have to face it: vault 106 is the example for the empty world of fallout 3.

if you like you can nitpick about fallout 1 and 2, but be prepared that it is about a thousand times harder then fallout 3. I wish you good luck and I admire your level of comitment. Spending a lot of time to find (real) flaws in Fallout 1/2 to cover up all the mistakes of fallout 3 does take a lot of courage.
 
betamonkey said:
Forcing? See.. that's just it. You aren't FORCED to do anything.

And please, let's not get into 'omg how can they survive' debate because you can nitpick the entire franchise to death if you chose.

And how do you even know those suriviors are real? I mean.. isn't it full of hallucinogenic gas? ;)

Nah, they must be real.. it must be illogical and Bethesda must suck.
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For one, because the vault creates a very clear distinction between hallucinations and non-hallucinations. Secondly, because that crippled arm remained crippled when I left the vault.

Also, you are ignoring the point again: the place is empty and a dungeon crawl, and it is far from fleshed out.
 
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