A genuine, worthy sequel

Let's get one thing out of the way - VATS is NOT turn based. It's a superpower, similiar to Max Payne's bullet time.

I never said that VATS was turn based, but a good idea to blend first person gameplay with the older mechanics from rpg (pause the game like in baldur's gate, turn based, etc ...)
And yes I overlooked to speak about the almost god mode issue since I'm playing with a mod that change this. But yes this is console-easy poor choice.It's true that in its original form VATS is a cheating gimmick, but it is just a question of some variables to change, the core feature is nice. (most of the flaws in the gameplay are like that, the feature is here, but the numbers are dumbed down for the console crowd)


Why should they change? Fallout was from the beginning developed in the way it was, it's design is defined. A sequel should not discard core design principles. It's all basic logic, really.

Because they are not the same people ? Honestly I completely see your point, there are a lot of changes in the design, and maybe that for other franchise I would be that conservative, I don't know. But somehow I'm enjoying some of those changes and some others are not gamebreaking to me ... It's a question of feelings, most of modern games bores me and I'm mostly buying and trying them only to look at what is done and test a lot of things for my work, but FO3 is working on me, even with all the flaws, it's the only game since a long time where I'm eager to play when I stop working. The witcher didn't had this, Mass effect neither ...even with their obvious qualities. The only game that interested me that much in a near past was Morrowind. I guess that there is something in the way that Bethesda craft their worlds that works on me.
But I should have mentionned that FO3 is not a 10/10 for me, more like a 7,5/10 or something, I'm not blind and I can see how much better it could be. But that doesn't keep it for pleasing me as it is.


Then why take an existing franchise instead of creating your own?

Well they already have their own succes franchise. I'm pretty sure that they really like the fallout games and genuinely wanted to have theyr take on it and improve it. We can't deny that they put a lot of love into it. They did not made awful animation just in order to piss NMA off, in fact the animations are much better than from their previous games, but unfortunately they still sucks. They cannot suddenly change all the things that makes them being bethesda and not black isle or troika.


It's not a true sequel, and it's a fact. Nothing connects it to its predecessors, it could very well be a completely new franchise.

I know that a lot of things are different in term of gameplay/story/content , but again it was not enough for me to not feel in a fallout game. And the time that passed must help, it was obvious that there would be tons of changes, and in the end I was pleasantly surprised, when I was expecting something bad, considering Oblivion versus Morrowind.
Maybe it should be called fallout : DC or something. I can understand your gripe with this, but in the end I'm still playing the game and enjoying it :)


So it's basically "TES with Fallout elements"? If so, why do you claim it's a true sequel?

I said the opposite, it's fallout with TES elements.

Not to mention that the core of Fallout was always the emulation of the P&P RPG feel, your choices having consequences and an actual impact on the world, your character being a part of the world, not an overpowered god-like VATSman. Artistic design is merely a part of the Fallout feel.

I never played the P&P.
But this is clearly one thing I'm hoping mods will change, like they did for morrowind or oblivion. More consequence to your actions. There are good questlines and a lot of improvement in the vanilla version, compared to older Bethesda titles, but this is not up to FO1 and 2 qualities.

Even though SPECIAL was integral to the Fallout RPG gameplay? Look at Van Buren, as much attention was put to tweaking SPECIAL as was to other parts of the game, and the devs actually responded to fan queries.

I never looked into Van Buren, like I really never looked in FO3 before it was released. I don't speculate on unreleased titles, so much can happen or change (like being cancelled). I beleive you, but unfortunately the project was dropped ...

ow, explain to me, how do relatively miniscule changes from Fallout 1 to Fallout 2 justify the drastic genre reassignment operation in Fallout 3?

The years ?
How can you say for sure that if FO3 had been designed by the original team, they wouldn't have changed a ltons of things in a 10 years break ? (I am not saying that the changes are good or bad, this is up to anyone's own consideration to tell that, I'm just saying that changes aren't a bad thing)


Why fix something that isn't broken?

You should say : why change something that isn't broken. I'm not sure they were trying to fix anything, just change it to their way of making games. The franchise had been dead since a long time, the old developpers obviously were not able to work on it anymore ... i think it's normal that a new developper changes things and adapt the whole concept

What's your problem with turn-based anyways?

I don't really have a problem, I'm just more fond of the real time gameplay (baldur's gate or kotor for example with the occasionnal space to pause), and I think that FO3 is a good step in a direction that please me, it just needs much better VATS possibilities, and a better gestion of the AP that would be meaningful.


I'm a guy with standards. Valve can make their games incredibly refined, nearing perfection - why can't Bethesda, despite their budget and marketing?

I completely agree here, Unfortunately Valve is one of the very few great developper around. (even thought that the demo version of left 4 dead was a kind of deception in term of gameplay features to me, fun but a bit meaningless. I'll see with the full game)
Call me an idealist if you want, but when I see all the improvements from Oblivion to Fallout3 I'm still happy and have faith for TES5 and Fallout4

It's an educated guess - if visual and text cues in Fallout are not sufficent to immerse you and you consider FPP with pretty graphics more immersive, that indicates you might have trouble with purely written media like books. Hardly baseless.

I guess I didnt explain myself correctly then, maybe the immerse word is not the good word, but you'll have to try to understand what I mean with my level in english rather than pick me on every words then.
I never said that the visual and text informations in Fallout were not great, they are, and do a great job at bringing the world to life. Those parts are immersive and that's mostly what I loved when playing those games. And this applies too to Planescape Torment or the baldur's gate serie.
What I find not very "immersive" is the isometric view. It places me as a god directing a character, not in the character himself. This has NOTHING to do with me not beeing open minded enough to have immersion from small pixels and text descriptions (and have a look at my illustration works on my website if you want to see that I am not a completely stupid unimaginative moron) but simply by the fact that I find it better to see the world from you character's eyes rather than from a top view ... this is just a gameplay preference and a personnal feeling, and has nothing to do with beeing imaginative or not.

Note: In a book, you see what you want to see, basing on textual cues from the author.

Yes, that's what I meant, obivously the author only shows you words. But the point of view and the perspective is still directed by the author. If he doesn't write anything about what happens to a character at a time, you can imagine or guess, but don't know for sure.
With isometric view there is no space for guessing or imagination, you see your surroundings plain and simple. A good firest person view with surround sound is great imho in order to imagine what is behind you with the sounds.

Which was already present in the original Fallout - you had to have the awareness perk to be able to get the exact information about the enemy.

Yes, and I just said that this is missing in FO3, not especially made the exact same way than in the previous games, but for now it is severely lacking.

I'd also like to add that by your definition, Fallout 3 is not very immersive. Percentage chances of success in dialogue options?

Yes, this is one of the immersion breaking thing, I'm hoping for a mod that remove those percentage informations as well as the "failure" or "succes" hint after you say your line.
A lot of things need to be done with the dialogue, I never said the opposite. Most of the dialogue choices are toned down and you don't have enough possibilities, because of those stupid voice over. I think they should have only voiced some of the main quest NPCs, and et the other characters be text only and then have more fun with all their lines. But I can see that the producers and suits would simply not allow that :/
 
A few things:

Anyone who blindly supports Beth and ignores the gaping holes in the plot needs to seriously reconsider their position. Don't get me wrong, Fallout 3 is a good game (I would give it a 7/10), but the glaring inconsistencies INTERNAL to its own design are just painful! Its one thing if they made it inconsistent with Fallout 1,2, and Tactics (which in many ways they did), its another when complete absurdities pop up.

[spoiler:696670511b]Why the hell does the radiation at the very end kill me when I'm wearing Advanced Power Armor, have the Rad Resistance Perk, dosed up on Rad-X, and have a metric fuckton of Radaway in my inventory? Furthermore, why does my supermutant friend not turn on project purity with the code??? He already proved that he is RADIATION IMMMUNE earlier when he got the GECK for me out of the irradiated vault. I found that unacceptable. I think everyone was expecting a third ending for GOOD KARMA, where he went in for you and everyone went home alive. The current good karma ending is more of a neutral "non mutant/ghoul friendly" ending. [/spoiler:696670511b]

[spoiler:696670511b]The nuclear bomb in Megaton that only requires a 25 in explosives to disarm. LOL WUT? At least send me to find a component or something somewhere. I was expecting a quest for a replacement fuse or something. A town full of blithering idiots.. no wonder tenpenny wants to blow them up.[/spoiler:696670511b]


SPECIAL -

LOLWUT? Did anyone even bring up yet the fact that Beth BUTCHERED the use of the stats?

Strength - No longer a requirement for using any weapons
Perception - No bearing on your ranged attacks beyond the skill point bonus
Endurance - Nothing really wrong here I can see.
Charisma - One NPC limit makes this a useless stat
Intelligence - Overpowered if you don't know where to get books and bobbleheads. Otherwise, its useless since you can easily get 100's in every stat with the right perk. Also, there are barely any dialog options effected anymore by INT.
Agility - Overpowered. The only thing you need 10 of since it effects Godmod.. I mean VATS
Luck - Nowhere near what it used to be. Where are my crit failures damnit?

Some people might say "but thats just a stat thing, not the core of the game". I say, bullshit! What made Fallout 1 and 2 so challenging was a careful balance of stats and the genuine feeling that they had purpose. There were a few imbalances, IE STR was largely useless endgame thanks to the generous heap that power armor gave us, but overall it contributed to making each character feel unique. Thanks to 100 point skill caps, easy 100 point to all skills, easy heaping piles of stats (there is a bobblehead for every stat), Bethesda reinvented the SPECIAL character. We now have four classes:

Male Evil
Male Good
Female Evil
Female Good

Due to budget cuts, the Male Neutral and Female Neutral had to be cut out. Sorry guys. Only two endings instead of three.


I'm not even going near the humor. Someone in this thread already nailed that one comparing FO3 humor to Jackass and a "diamond in a dung heap".


Last, but not least, Godmode.. er VATS. Unmodded the biggest disappointment in the game. I think we were all kinda hoping something more along the lines of a real time auto-aim type thing. Woulda been nice if VATS just forced your crosshair over the selected body part or something similar.
 
I don't even want to think about how SPECIAL has been...raped...it's...it's too painful...
 
Mimezu said:
I never said that VATS was turn based, but a good idea to blend first person gameplay with the older mechanics from rpg (pause the game like in baldur's gate, turn based, etc ...)

What does it take from older games? What mechanics? Do tell. Currently, it's just a superpower that mysteriously increases your rate of fire to extreme and so does it do damage. And it's not the godmode alone that's too fault.

And yes I overlooked to speak about the almost god mode issue since I'm playing with a mod that change this. But yes this is console-easy poor choice.It's true that in its original form VATS is a cheating gimmick, but it is just a question of some variables to change, the core feature is nice. (most of the flaws in the gameplay are like that, the feature is here, but the numbers are dumbed down for the console crowd)

Unless speed in VATS equals the speed outside of it, it will be a cheating gimmick.

Because they are not the same people ? Honestly I completely see your point, there are a lot of changes in the design, and maybe that for other franchise I would be that conservative, I don't know. But somehow I'm enjoying some of those changes and some others are not gamebreaking to me ... It's a question of feelings, most of modern games bores me and I'm mostly buying and trying them only to look at what is done and test a lot of things for my work, but FO3 is working on me, even with all the flaws, it's the only game since a long time where I'm eager to play when I stop working. The witcher didn't had this, Mass effect neither ...even with their obvious qualities. The only game that interested me that much in a near past was Morrowind. I guess that there is something in the way that Bethesda craft their worlds that works on me.
But I should have mentionned that FO3 is not a 10/10 for me, more like a 7,5/10 or something, I'm not blind and I can see how much better it could be. But that doesn't keep it for pleasing me as it is.

Replay Fo3 again. I was like you the first time through, only to realize how bad the gameplay is when trying it again. Especially now, after reading Van Buren design docs.

It's like comparing a bicycle (Fo3) to a Ferrari (VB) in terms of raw RPGness.

Well they already have their own succes franchise. I'm pretty sure that they really like the fallout games and genuinely wanted to have theyr take on it and improve it. We can't deny that they put a lot of love into it. They did not made awful animation just in order to piss NMA off, in fact the animations are much better than from their previous games, but unfortunately they still sucks. They cannot suddenly change all the things that makes them being bethesda and not black isle or troika.

Usually, if technical quality is lacking, you fire those responsible for lacks and hire competent people.

Love? Hardly. I wouldn't call an internally inconsistent world "crafted with love". It's more like "people throwing concepts they like in a bin that's passed to programmers who mash it together".

I don't care about love. I care about having a good game to play.

I know that a lot of things are different in term of gameplay/story/content , but again it was not enough for me to not feel in a fallout game. And the time that passed must help, it was obvious that there would be tons of changes, and in the end I was pleasantly surprised, when I was expecting something bad, considering Oblivion versus Morrowind.
Maybe it should be called fallout : DC or something. I can understand your gripe with this, but in the end I'm still playing the game and enjoying it :)

Yes, exactly. Don't market it as a sequel, and we won't hold it to the standards of a Fallout game.

I said the opposite, it's fallout with TES elements.

Point Fallout out to me. No, aesthetics don't count this time (they actually look good... as one of my friends put it, if the same amount of time, effort and thought went into gameplay and story, it'd be a great game).

I never played the P&P.
But this is clearly one thing I'm hoping mods will change, like they did for morrowind or oblivion. More consequence to your actions. There are good questlines and a lot of improvement in the vanilla version, compared to older Bethesda titles, but this is not up to FO1 and 2 qualities.

Read through Van Buren design docs to see how C&C should be handled.

I never looked into Van Buren, like I really never looked in FO3 before it was released. I don't speculate on unreleased titles, so much can happen or change (like being cancelled). I beleive you, but unfortunately the project was dropped ...

Regardless, it's an example of how a Fallout sequel should be made.

The years ?
How can you say for sure that if FO3 had been designed by the original team, they wouldn't have changed a ltons of things in a 10 years break ? (I am not saying that the changes are good or bad, this is up to anyone's own consideration to tell that, I'm just saying that changes aren't a bad thing)

Because they would still go for a P&P RPG-emulating cRPG? Now, do tell why would they change?

You should say : why change something that isn't broken. I'm not sure they were trying to fix anything, just change it to their way of making games. The franchise had been dead since a long time, the old developpers obviously were not able to work on it anymore ... i think it's normal that a new developper changes things and adapt the whole concept

It should've stayed dead.

I don't really have a problem, I'm just more fond of the real time gameplay (baldur's gate or kotor for example with the occasionnal space to pause), and I think that FO3 is a good step in a direction that please me, it just needs much better VATS possibilities, and a better gestion of the AP that would be meaningful.

KOTOR is continuous turn based.

I completely agree here, Unfortunately Valve is one of the very few great developper around. (even thought that the demo version of left 4 dead was a kind of deception in term of gameplay features to me, fun but a bit meaningless. I'll see with the full game)
Call me an idealist if you want, but when I see all the improvements from Oblivion to Fallout3 I'm still happy and have faith for TES5 and Fallout4

I lost any after Oblivion - they can't even treat their own franchise properly.

I guess I didnt explain myself correctly then, maybe the immerse word is not the good word, but you'll have to try to understand what I mean with my level in english rather than pick me on every words then.
I never said that the visual and text informations in Fallout were not great, they are, and do a great job at bringing the world to life. Those parts are immersive and that's mostly what I loved when playing those games. And this applies too to Planescape Torment or the baldur's gate serie.
What I find not very "immersive" is the isometric view. It places me as a god directing a character, not in the character himself. This has NOTHING to do with me not beeing open minded enough to have immersion from small pixels and text descriptions (and have a look at my illustration works on my website if you want to see that I am not a completely stupid unimaginative moron) but simply by the fact that I find it better to see the world from you character's eyes rather than from a top view ... this is just a gameplay preference and a personnal feeling, and has nothing to do with beeing imaginative or not.

I don't need to see the worldthrough my character's eyes. Whenever I play Fallout, I truly am there. The games are internally consistent (Fo1 especially) and make sense, they convince me. Fo3 does not - the NPCs are forgettable, lifeless husks I don't feel anything towards.

Especially beggars. You'd think they'd instill pity in you. For me, they're three less bullets.

Yes, that's what I meant, obivously the author only shows you words. But the point of view and the perspective is still directed by the author. If he doesn't write anything about what happens to a character at a time, you can imagine or guess, but don't know for sure.
With isometric view there is no space for guessing or imagination, you see your surroundings plain and simple. A good firest person view with surround sound is great imho in order to imagine what is behind you with the sounds.

I consider Fallout's approach better. True, it could've used a fog of war system, like Arcanum, but in the end, it's much more tactical than Fo3, which is "run'n'gun".

Yes, and I just said that this is missing in FO3, not especially made the exact same way than in the previous games, but for now it is severely lacking.

It's kind of a moot point, since you own everything with VATS :)

Yes, this is one of the immersion breaking thing, I'm hoping for a mod that remove those percentage informations as well as the "failure" or "succes" hint after you say your line.
A lot of things need to be done with the dialogue, I never said the opposite. Most of the dialogue choices are toned down and you don't have enough possibilities, because of those stupid voice over. I think they should have only voiced some of the main quest NPCs, and et the other characters be text only and then have more fun with all their lines. But I can see that the producers and suits would simply not allow that :/

As I said, look Van Buren up.

And then grab a pitchfork, we're gonna picket Interplay.
 
In the end I think you're stuck with a Mac v PC problem, Mikael. You're not going to win. It isn't 1997. I have a hard time finding a tabletop game that isn't D&D idiots. Fallout 3 is clearly very profitable for Bethesda. On the other hand... old school roleplaying (like the Mac in some folks's eyes) has a definite cool factor. You can hope to influence the evil corporate monstrosity some at least.
 
Mikael Grizzly said:
Mimezu said:
I never said that VATS was turn based, but a good idea to blend first person gameplay with the older mechanics from rpg (pause the game like in baldur's gate, turn based, etc ...)

What does it take from older games? What mechanics? Do tell.

It...It...It uses the same sounds !!! The "tic tic tic" when you choose which body part to fire at and the "ting" when you launch the sequence... :D Does it count ?
 
'A genuine, worthy sequel'! Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!

The funniest thing I've heard in years!
 
Unless speed in VATS equals the speed outside of it, it will be a cheating gimmick.

The enemies havd the same speed than you have in VATS. The only issue with the vanilla settings is that you only take 10% of the damage while in VATS. SO if you use some of the mods that ramp up the damages to 100% it isn't cheating anymore. It is just a way to pause the action and target some precise areas (targetting grenades is fun for example).
On the opposite, with 100% damage to yourself, this is quite hard since your character is exposed during the VATS time.


KOTOR is continuous turn based.

Yes, in the end it is still quite near the real time you have in FO3. You are limited by your weapon rate of fire, the need to reload ... this isn't completely free continuous autofire you seem to think it is. But the vanilla values and costs for actions are so low that it is almost is.
But that's some of the things I want to mod, adding AP cost while in real time mode for actions such as stmpack or reloading, having to plan better what you do both in real time than in VATS (right now you cannot have your AP go down while in real time because the regeneration rate is much higher than the cost for any action, but all the mechanics are here to change that in the game engine, it is just a matter of tweaking numbers)
 
Mimezu said:
The enemies havd the same speed than you have in VATS. The only issue with the vanilla settings is that you only take 10% of the damage while in VATS. SO if you use some of the mods that ramp up the damages to 100% it isn't cheating anymore. It is just a way to pause the action and target some precise areas (targetting grenades is fun for example).
On the opposite, with 100% damage to yourself, this is quite hard since your character is exposed during the VATS time.

Excuse me? Same speed? What are you smoking?

Shoot a charging supermutant in the head with a Chinese AR. Note when he ends up when you kill him and how much ammo you have.

Now, do the same in VATS. Notice the difference? You shoot nine rounds of ammunition FASTER in VATS than you do in RT.

Yes, in the end it is still quite near the real time you have in FO3. You are limited by your weapon rate of fire, the need to reload ... this isn't completely free continuous autofire you seem to think it is. But the vanilla values and costs for actions are so low that it is almost is.

I've finished Fo3 twice. I know my shit. Do you?

But that's some of the things I want to mod, adding AP cost while in real time mode for actions such as stmpack or reloading, having to plan better what you do both in real time than in VATS (right now you cannot have your AP go down while in real time because the regeneration rate is much higher than the cost for any action, but all the mechanics are here to change that in the game engine, it is just a matter of tweaking numbers)

What? Where did you pull that out? From what I know, APs don't matter in RT, they aren't deducted for any action.
 
I'm pretty damn sure it'll be fun. I'll probably play the hell out of it.

Some people will hate on the Havok there too I imagine.

I also bet it'll be much better point and click than RPG.

What Fallout 3 could absorb from something like that would be smoothness. Even though I don't detest F3 as much as most of you do I could only imagine Fallout 3 writ Diablo 3.
 
What? Where did you pull that out? From what I know, APs don't matter in RT, they aren't deducted for any action.

Well I'm lousy at coding stuff so I can't check it out, but in one dev interview where they were explaining VATS and AP, they were saying that every action cost AP, even in real time, just that cost was so low in real time that you would not really notice it.
But it should be easy to check

Just look if it takes the same time to regen full AP while doing nothing and while shooting. If the devs were not lying if should regen a bit slower when firing.

And if it is true it should be easy for good modders to change the values and have a more meaningful impact of your actions toward AP even in real time.


Excuse me? Same speed? What are you smoking?

I'll have to check it again, maybe the mod I added changed things other than the damage you take, or maybe you are completely right, but in my game I can get killed while in VATS often if I don't plan what I do.
 
In the game I play, VATS is actually relatively useless. It comes in handy in a pinch, can be useful for taking out grenades, and is great if you want to pause to think for a second, but I've found that sometimes I do lousy when I shoot enemies while in it, versus when I shoot them outside of it. Maybe I don't have enough AP or something, but usually I can only get off maybe four shots (depending on the weapon, for example with the hunting rifle I get three, with the assault rifle I get three, but sometimes two? With grenades three, with the missile launcher two, but with the 10mm I get four) and they don't always do any more damage than they would outside of it.

I still think it's a bit cheap. I could be down to almost no health, at the edge of death, face to face with my enemy, toggle it on, aim directly at their head, and shoot off four shots that kill them just in the nick of time.
 
I'm looking for the the chat where I read this thing about AP while in real time but I don't find it anymore. It would be cool to be able to mod those values (if they exist) and have your AP be completely drained when you take a stimpack for example, and then have to wait a very short time before being able to shoot again, things like that. i'm pretty sure the engine allows for it, but maybe I'm wrong :/

Excuse me? Same speed? What are you smoking?

Ok, my mistake, I just tested it while paying real attention. I admit that I never really noticed it since your character doesn't move in VATS. I assumed that everyone was in slow motion in the same way. Obviously you are right and the enemies a much more slowed down than you are. it would be great to be able to mod this and have the enemies speed upped a bit. Maybe not exactly the same as yours since you cannot move, but somehow evening things out.
 
VATS reduces incoming damage by 90% or so. Its more useful than you think. Close range its amazing, long range its kind of a liability. You are actually MORE accurate manually lining up a head shot with the Sniper Rifle, for example, than using vats with it.

Sneaking + Manual aimed head shot (any rifle weapon) for long range

VATS + Combat Shotgun to the head for melee
 
Not to mention you can circle strafe and head to your foe face to face, enter VATS then pump anything you got to his/her/its face.
That's how I kill every Enclave soldier, with a 10mm SMG. 10mm SMG able to kill an Enclave soldier! :evil:

Mimezu said:
SO if you use some of the mods that ramp up the damages to 100% it isn't cheating anymore. It is just a way to pause the action and target some precise areas (targetting grenades is fun for example)
Now why do I have to install mod to 'fix' this problem? Shitty design is forever once it is compiled. Mod is suppose to add fun element not fixing the crappy design.
 
Fallout 3 is dissapointing in the ways of the main quest. it does not require you to do anything really special and dangerous. you can sweet talk your way to the end, and even the ending is NOTHING fallout. my fears came true when i bought that piece of crap expecting many many hours of shooting at annoying kids, gambling, and hookers. but no, Bethesda is only interested in rating, and making safe moves that wont hurt sales. shame on you bethesda
 
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