A (Minor?) Case for Optimism?

Discussion in 'Future Fallout Game Discussion' started by Plautus, Jun 15, 2015.

  1. Plautus

    Plautus Angry Preacher

    75
    Nov 24, 2010
    I'm not sure how well-received this post will be given my audience; however, I'm still coming from the perspective of a skeptic. Despite the massive quality downgrade from Morrowind to Oblivion, we have evidenced Bethesda improving their general game making skills from Oblivion to the Dragonborn DLC, with each major title and major DLC release featuring noticeable improvements in level design, art design, and writing quality. For example, the political conflict at the center of Skyrim was more textured than the "political" "conflict" at the center of Fallout 3, with the Empire and Stormcloaks seeming more believable than the Brotherhood and Enclave (though admittedly that doesn't take much). Even from Oblivion to the Shivering Isles, there was a noticeable improvement in creativity in terms of both level design and art direction.

    Now if we compare the Dawnguard and Dragonborn DLCs to base Skyrim, we see significant improvements in level design and environment design, with more organic-feeling and engaging dungeons and memorable backdrops. The writing of Dragonborn (though it was still Bethesda writing) was also improved over Skyrim: Neloth, the wizard, actually emoted and exhibited personality and character traits; Hermaeus Mora had a genuine sense of menace as well. Additionally, the optional content in Dragonborn involved more exploration than the optional content in base Skyrim. What I'm suggesting is that despite their general ineptitude, Bethesda generally exhibits attempts at improvement from release to release, which suggests a genuine attempt at providing quality content (there's also the free patch content like horseback combat, which, while minor, was still an effort they didn't necessarily need to make) and an interest in the craft of game design.

    What I'm trying to say is that I think there's reasonable grounds to expect that Fallout 4 will be an improvement over Skyrim, which in turn was an improvement over Fallout 3. We can debate the extent to which this will be an improvement, but I genuinely and sincerely think that Bethesda exerts at least nominal effort to improve their products. This effort can only work in favor of the audience (I hope).
     
  2. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
    I can agree with all of that... However... What Bethesda improves towards is a better simulation... at the expense of a better RPG. Their handling of FO3 was at such a tangent, that it's impossible see FO3 as of the same series, without reading its name, and gasping in disbelief. FO4 seems to follow the pattern. It seems to be Skyrim 2.0 set in the Fallout world, with elements of Minecraft tacked on. It's like they held a survey of whatever seemed popular, to use as the basis for FO4.

    I do think that they've stripped out the last vestige of RPG in the once great RPG series.
     
  3. X12

    X12 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    172
    Jun 8, 2012
    So lets try to start enjoying modern Fallout for what it is. Im an optimist. I think Fallout 4 will be a great game. if im wrong, ok.
     
  4. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    The only bitof optimism I can summon up is either Obsidian is given the opportunity to make another Fallout game and fixes the shit Bethesda did or for a super cool mod that at least helps me ignore the rest of the Bethesda brand sludge and I buy it at 5 dollars, like I did with Skyrim.
     
  5. 3ntropy775

    3ntropy775 First time out of the vault

    3
    Jun 17, 2015
    I personally think they've stripped even more Fallout from the already bare Fallout 3. There has been no confirmation or concrete evidence of a skill system, the game seems extremely action heavy and a voiced protag places even more strain on role playing choices. I personally have no faith in Bethesda anymore, because their main goal is to appeal to as wide an audience as they possibly can.

    EDIT: I actually just wished that Obsidian could have handled it.
     
  6. X12

    X12 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    172
    Jun 8, 2012
    I think the voiced protagonist might just be an option you can turn off. As well as I think you will have the option of different voice actors/ actresses for your character.

    Though I dont see how having a voiced protagonist prevents choices.
     
  7. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Wouldn't count on that, Howard mentioned only having 2 actors for the protagonist and they made a big deal out of the "cinematic" conversations. They said how dynamic they were but never showed any of the things the ysaid, not even the "just shoot them in the face" option. So I am gonna bet the Robo Buttler is also an essential NPC.
     
  8. Battlecross

    Battlecross Banned

    730
    Jun 17, 2015
    There are skill bobbleheads, so there must be skills.

    All this "appeal to a wide audience" stuff is nonsense, that's the goal of nearly every game. It's not to make tiny niche games for a subset of purists who will not financially support the project enough. I mean come on.
     
  9. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Bobbleheads probably only give you perks. Science is even listed as a Perk and there is no tagged skills in character creation nor a Skills tab on the Pipboy.
     
  10. Battlecross

    Battlecross Banned

    730
    Jun 17, 2015
    Doubtful, since Science! is a perk in the game and skills like Barter and such still exist as bobbleheads.

    Forum isn't letting me post the link, but there are Charisma, Barter, Explosive, and presumably every other bobblehead there have been in previous. No tab doesn't mean they don't exist, it's likely somewhere else or it's a different system.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2015
  11. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    They aklready turned Science into a perk and there is no hint of Skills in the UI,there were no tagged skills on character creation and crafting has perk requirements rather than skill reqs. Like I said those bobleheads will probably give you special perks.
     
  12. Battlecross

    Battlecross Banned

    730
    Jun 17, 2015
    Science was a skill, Science! was a perk. You might be right, but it's just speculation for now. If a Barter bobblehead gives you 10% off prices, it's really not much different than the skill.
     
  13. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Except if it just gives you discount it means no Barter skill checks in Quests. So it's very different from it.
     
  14. Battlecross

    Battlecross Banned

    730
    Jun 17, 2015
    Yes, but it's speculation. Skills may still exist and if Charisma and Speech still exist I guarantee it'll have an effect on speech options.
     
  15. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Charisma states that it increases the chances of charming others in conversation, so Charisma has been turned in the generic stats for dialogue options, and it's back to the percentage based statements rather than the skill based ones. So it's back to the Jedi mind tricks.
     
  16. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Fallout 4 will be an "improvement" only because Fallout 3 set the bar so incredibly low, that we can talk about anything being an improvement. Poop tennis is an improvement to FO3.
     
  17. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Well "they have nowhere to go but up" is not always true, they can just get a shovel and dig deeper in.
     
  18. TheGreatCornholio

    TheGreatCornholio First time out of the vault

    96
    Jun 16, 2015
    I liked FO3 despite its problems. Im hopeful that they learned and will do better with the story and dialouge this time around. I will reserve judgement unfil more info is available.
     
  19. 3ntropy775

    3ntropy775 First time out of the vault

    3
    Jun 17, 2015
    Highly unlikely. They didn't spend a small fortune to hire two voice actors and make it such an integral part of the game, just so you can turn it off. My biggest problems are that the dialogue system doesn't give you full detail on what you're character is about to say(the same system bioware uses in which you get a completely unexpected result from what the dialogue choice indicated), for example you might pick "Busy" which then results in your character saying "F*** off". Then there is the case of the voice not fitting your character's appearance or the type of personality you want to play. By having two voice actors record a few lines as replies to every single NPC's lines, the voice acting budget spent would have more than doubled, which could have been better spent adding more dialogue to existing NPCs or adding more NPCs for that matter.

    EDIT: It's confirmed that there is only one voice per gender.

    I digress on the skills then, but until there is more elaboration on whether the skill system changed I remain skeptical. By purists I assume you're referring to the original fanbase that supported them to get their first game off the shelves. It's not nonsense, a lot of games have alienated their fans or "purists" as you call them by stripping and changing features which made the original game great in the first place to draw more fans with different tastes. Dragon Age 2 is a shining example, so much so that it divided it's fan base into 2 camps. It lost what tactical gameplay it had in favor for more action packed combat, it's voiced protag was so awful that me and a lot others wanted to cave Hawke's face in with a brick at times and the companions became flat and one dimensional. The list goes on. I understand that the gaming industry is a business and that they want to expand their fanbase and increase revenue, but if the game ends up selling it's soul, what's the point?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
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  20. Centurion 101

    Centurion 101 First time out of the vault

    38
    Jun 16, 2015
    One case for optimism:
    The artwork in Bethesdas Fallout 3 was a lot better than in new vegas. A lot of things looked really poorly designed in NV. So I look forward to Bethesdas superior artist team at least.

    For example, this is what the legion should have looked like in NV (a FO4 concept art piece)
     

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