A small mindless rant on games, graphics, brainwashed drones, and Fallout.

Dr Fallout said:
I wonder what @Greed thinks of Fallout 1?
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IIRC, it thinks 1 is flawed too and based on its nitpicking of in-game exploits & its lauding of 4's approach to story, it may think the game is poorly designed but that's my impression. I could be wrong.

Either ways, I do 'await' its response with this at hand:
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Dr Fallout said:
Why do your refer to @Greed as an it? He's a he.
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Habit, I guess. I referred to Greed as an it on a different discussion and so far, I haven't kicked the habit.

EDIT: Plus I do look down on Greed's dismissal of points raised by others & the amount of obssessive nitpicking Greed does for other games outside Greed's beloved games so it's not easy kicking the habit.
 
Okay...

Anyway, what's your favorite aspect of Morrowind's story? Mine's the century (?) long betrayal and conflict between the Nerevar, Vivec, Sotha Sil, Almalexia (?) and Dagoth Ur. It has so much history, mystery and legend surrounding it.
 
Dr Fallout said:
Anyway, what's your favorite aspect of Morrowind's story? Mine's the century (?) long betrayal and conflict between the Nerevar, Vivec, Sotha Sil, Almalexia (?) and Dagoth Ur. It has so much history, mystery and legend surrounding it.
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I think mine is more on how history in the setting was interpreted based on the dominant faction. As a result, dissidents and Ashlanders who do not believe in the history stated by said faction are persecuted and looked down upon. It's quite interesting to see this in the game and watch it actually take place (places like the Ministry of Truth bring up Orwellian notions on the setting and its dominant religion).

It is interesting to note that all this took place not because of the Tribunal but rather due to the people in the Tribunal who were attempting to maintain faith in the Tribunal IIRC. Though there could be some encouragement by the Tribunal.

The other thing I liked is the subversion of the Chosen One cliche; that a prophecy and its terms may exist but it can only be fulfilled by those who go out of their way to take up the role and said prophecy does not guarantee the success of said Chosen One. Anyone could fulfill the prophecy but the one that succeeds becomes the Chosen One of that prophecy simply because they completed every aspect of it.

I do agree with your point on the betrayals and conflicts, it's not my personal favorite but I understand its appeal and I do like it.

The fact that there is no real way of figuring out who is ultimately correct goes to show how much perspective & circumstance can taint recollections of history. It will probably remain a mystery to players and people in-universe. Even the most credible sources may be tainted by Vivec's (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Battle_of_Red_Mountain) or Alandro Sul's (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Nerevar_at_Red_Mountain) own perspectives and recollections (which makes me wonder what would happen if Almalexia, Nerevar, Dagoth Ur, Alandro Sul and Vivec ever ended up in a Rashomon-styled show).
 
I just like how the backstory of the Nerevar can shape your relationship with Vivec. You can fully buy into being his 'spirit' and hence dislike Vivec, even killing him for the betrayal or ignore it because the story suggests you're not actually a re-incarnation.
 
Dr Fallout said:
I just like how the backstory of the Nerevar can shape your relationship with Vivec. You can fully buy into being his 'spirit' and hence dislike Vivec, even killing him for the betrayal or ignore it because the story suggests you're not actually a re-incarnation.
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I think part of the reason why I like Morrowind is that the game expects the player to come up with these notions and allows them to play them out. It is smart enough to recognise the kind of players it may come across and addresses them.

For instance, Caius Cosades actually instructs you to go out and adventure more before coming back for the MQ if you are below a certain level, even giving spending money he suggests you use on supplies or training:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Caius_Cosades
[≤ Level 3; 200 Gold has been added to your inventory.] "First thing, pilgrim. You're new. And you look it. Here's 200 drakes. Go get yourself a decent weapon. Or armor. Or a spell. And second thing... you need a cover identity. Around here, 'freelance adventurer' is a common profession. Sign on with the Fighters Guild, or Mages Guild, or Imperial Cult, or Imperial legion, advance in the ranks, gain skill and experience. Or go out on your own, look for freelance work, or trouble. Then, when you're ready, come back, and I'll have orders for you."
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Which changes if you are of a higher level:
[≥ Level 4] "Well.. one look at you, and anyone can see you're an experienced adventurer. That can be your cover identity. Around here, freelance adventurers are thick as fleas on a guar. You'll want to keep active in that line, just to avoid unwanted attention. So. I have orders for you, whenever you're ready."
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In a way, it's like the game encourages the player to explore and get into the world first before coming back to the MQ. It appears to acknowledge the kind of players it has and how they operate. Even his other dialogue instructs the player to understand the world better:
[A Short History of Morrowind has been added to your inventory.] "Jeanette Sitte's little book is a good place to start. I have a copy here. Take it. You might also look for 'On Morrowind, the Imperial Province', by Erramanwe of Sunhold."
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Morrowind started a trend for rewarding the player (not directly mind) for doing inter-game research and reading. Reading books gave you a large level of understanding, and this is really applicable in Skyrim as well (though the Dragonborn legend isn't as well written), with Oblivion really breaking from it. You don't need to read to understand the plot.
 
Dr Fallout said:
Morrowind started a trend for rewarding the player (not directly mind) for doing inter-game research and reading. Reading books gave you a large level of understanding, and this is really applicable in Skyrim as well (though the Dragonborn legend isn't as well written), with Oblivion really breaking from it. You don't need to read to understand the plot.
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I think the reason why Morrowind succeeded in that is because of its relatively poor dialogue system and its lack of voice-acting.

Since it was unvoiced and was more like a list of articles, the game was able to go into a lot of detail for up to several passages (though admittedly I think there could be better ways though none spring to mind at the moment). On the other hand, voice acting restricts how much can be said during dialogue while forcing some form of reliance on in-game texts to handle exposition and allow understanding of the plot (along with its themes and ideas). Nothing wrong with voice acting if the game is good enough to get you interested in the setting and provide incentives to read and research (like with Baldur's Gate and Planescape).

Try to imagine paying voice actors to say all those lines in Morrowind and needing to pay them based on the amount of lines available. Past Bethesda would become bankrupt long before they could announce the game.
 
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Yeah as much as the dialogue system is shit, it does have a couple things going for it.
a) Imagine a Morrowind dialogue system where you ask for a three keywords and get single line answers that are voiced. Yep, that's Oblivion and it's so much worse.
b) No other dialogue I know of conveys as much information as Morrowind.
c) The dialogue, while oft repeated isn't necessarily badly written. A lot of it is actually quite good.
 
Dr Fallout said:
c) The dialogue, while oft repeated isn't necessarily badly written. A lot of it is actually quite good.
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There are variations on certain topics based on the race of NPCs, quest specific NPCs aside.

Like how Imperials praise their Empire while others may not be as nice about it, the Dunmer look down on Nords, races outside of Dunmer do look down on slavery in Morrowind, Camona Tong NPCs treat you badly until you significantly raise your disposition (or have a very high Personality score).

And if all else fails, I think there are mods to work around the lack of variation like the Less Generic series (that I have problems installing).

Nothing wrong with voice acting if the game is good enough to get you interested in the setting and provide incentives to read and research (like with Baldur's Gate and Planescape).
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Admittedly, I just remembered that the two games here have little voice acting save for key moments.
 
CerberusGate said:
Like how Imperials praise their Empire while others may not be as nice about it, the Dunmer look down on Nords, races outside of Dunmer do look down on slavery in Morrowind, Camona Tong NPCs treat you badly until you significantly raise your disposition (or have a very high Personality score).
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Yeah the Dunmer basically spit on everyone. I tend to look for Dunmers and get their opinion on other races, because they're so snobby about it. The fact that disposition (while handled badly) changed the dialogue results was a good thing.
 
All right, just did the Navarro run, got myself some lovely APA, and a Plasma rifle.

Going to be honest, even with this gear, you WILL be killed by a pack of fire gecko, and you will be 2-4 hit killed by gauss pistols and plasma rifles.

Critical hits are a death sentence, even with power armour.
 
Dr Fallout said:
Which was...?

Azura/tribal medicine women (first ashland tribe you meet in the mainquest) even directly talk about how you're not necessarily the chosen one, and that there were others, difference being... they failed. It's directly talked about in the game.
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That Morrowind, due to its poor general quest design, and NPC design, had to directly tell everything to you, instead of just flowing it more naturally into the game's background.

In Morrowind, many NPCs do what you mention. They basically break the 4th wall, and constantly remind you of the "meta" plot/point of the game's narrative. Things like "there is no such thing as the chosen one" or "being the chosen one/having the signs of being the chosen one doesn't mean anything because you can fail". Its presented in a way that you literally can't miss it, but it also feels unnatural because so many NPCs seem to realize that they are in a game, thats making a point, and just sort of tell you the point.

In later games, like Oblivion and Skyrim, those things are just woven into the game's lore/background. Miraak for example doesn't constantly talk about how you are basically him, a dragonborn sent by Akatosh to slay Alduin, only he decided no, and went to gain personal power, and how you could do the same as him. Those are just parts of his background, and you, the player, are left to see the parallels, and the point those parallels make.

The closest Skyrim gets to Morrowind in that regard is when you talk to Parrthunax, and he makes his comments about what reasoning you are using to justify your pursuit of Alduin. But even then, its framed in a personal context of your specific justification. If that conversation was done in Morrowind, Parrthunax would instead be making generalized comments like "all heroes have a habit of blindly following destiny!", just basically telling you the point.

In later games it's far more naturally woven into the background and conversations. No one in Skyrim is so directly telling you "being a dragonborn doesn't mean you should fight Alduin, or that you have to fight Alduin, or that even if you did fight Alduin, the prophecy doesn't mean you would win!" like you get from NPCs in Morrowind.

Dr Fallout said:
I wonder what @Greed thinks of Fallout 1?
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Its a really good game.

Dr Fallout said:
I just like how the backstory of the Nerevar can shape your relationship with Vivec. You can fully buy into being his 'spirit' and hence dislike Vivec, even killing him for the betrayal or ignore it because the story suggests you're not actually a re-incarnation.
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According to Michael Kirkbride, the guy who wrote large parts of Morrowind, the canonical version of events is that the Battle of Red Mountain, in which Dagoth-Ur, Vivec, Sotha Sil, and Almelexia, supposedly betrayed Nerevar in one way or another, took place inside a dragon break, a period of time in which time become non-linear, and multiple parallel timelines happen simultaneously, only to get merged down into one once Akatosh recovers.

Meaning all variations of the story, and who betrayed who, are equally true.

Dagoth-Ur, Vivec, Sotha Sil, and Almelexia, all did and didn't betray Nerevar, and all contradictory telling of the events of the battle are all 100% true.
 
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Greed said:
That Morrowind, due to its poor general quest design, and NPC design, had to directly tell everything to you, instead of just flowing it more naturally into the game's background.
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So... In a menu and through Quest Markers? Much natural, wow organic, such immersion

Greed said:
In later games it's far more naturally woven into the background and conversations. No one in Skyrim is so directly telling you "being a dragonborn doesn't mean you should fight Alduin, or that you have to fight Alduin, or that even if you did fight Alduin, the prophecy doesn't mean you would win!" like you get from NPCs in Morrowind.
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Please kill the dragon! he is totally just about to eat the world! For realsies! By the way, can you go fetch me some Mammoth Tusks?
 
Skryim has a whole number of problems.

Apparently some bandit chief in steel armour is capable of out DPS'ing and out-tanking my level 30+ character who did nothing but buff his own health, while wearing full Daedric gear.
 
Arnust said:
Please kill the dragon! he is totally just about to eat the world! For realsies! By the way, can you go fetch me some Mammoth Tusks?
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An ancient quasi-immortal being is unleashing hordes of ash monsters into the wilderness and only you might be able to stop it!.... can you go kill some skeletons in this totally unimportant tomb for me!?

Welcome to RPGs.
 
Arnust said:
So... In a menu and through Quest Markers?
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Now you're doing it wrong! Through optional to read books and exposition barely woven into the main quest that you have to search for on your own! That's how Skyrim tells a superior story to games like Planescape: Torment!
/s

ThatZenoGuy said:
Skryim has a whole number of problems.

Apparently some bandit chief in steel armour is capable of out DPS'ing and out-tanking my level 30+ character who did nothing but buff his own health, while wearing full Daedric gear.
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That's why the only way to play Skyrim is as a stealth archer. I am not even kidding. Every player character in the game is a potentially perfect stealth archer regardless of background, race or gender:
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Greed said:
Welcome to RPGs.
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No, YOU are welcome
I see that you praise Skyrim's excellent storytelling while nitpicking problems of games better on the subject or talk down developers allowing outside-the-box thinking.

You can enjoy games that are mediocre all you want, but if you feel alone on your interest on them, don't go to talk shit of other games for petty things in comparison to feel better with yourself about the time wasted. Go to Sugrabombed or something. Away with you
 
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