Projecting much?
A small mindless rant on games, graphics, brainwashed drones, and Fallout.
- Thread starter ThatZenoGuy
- Start date
ThatZenoGuy
Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism
You're truly an enigma, aren't you?
You wish for removing all freedom in a game, yet claim you don't want to railroad.
In the case of Fallout, there has always been exploits, and ways to get special items before you should reasonably get them.
And by the way, thanks for debating in bad faith, not even bothering to post anything of real substance.
How about you make your own thread, to discuss your inane topics?
Because the adults are talking.
I have never once suggested this, and I don't see why you feel the need to constantly try to claim I did.
Hilariously that you talk about posting in bad faith as well, given the above.
ThatZenoGuy
Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism
Not only did you utterly 'drop' the DT/DR topic, you dropped the Navarro run/Power armour topic.
Is this all you do? Just talk shit, and stop when someone beats you? Do you ever concede?
Because I'd love a concession on at least one of these topics, if not both.
I am willing to explain how DT is superior to DR, if you wish.
Guys, guys, guys, let us all stay friendly, mkay? It's fun bashing this Greed guy once in a while, but try not to cross the line.
Now, if Morrowind actually was less about making Dagoth Ur the evil force of Morrowind and giving you a chance to side with him, the game could have been really outstanding. In my opinion, even with the few informations you get in the game, You wouldn't even need to change THAT much to make Dagoth Ur a more 'gray' character, when you consider that Vivec, and the others aren't really saints. I don't remember all the details anymore, but what I really loved how the game was very ambigous about what 'really' happend to Nerevar. What Morrowind lacked in choices and consequences, it definetly had in debth, but it's not so obvious, as it doesn't hit you over the head with it like a club - as many modern RPGs do, oh? See this guy? He is the evil wizard you have to defeat! See this guy? He is the morraly gray hero/villain/what ever, he might also betray you in the end. And the rest of the fuckers are your companions, and you don't have to care about them anyway,as they can't day unless the main character dies, and so on. Morrowind actually allowed you to form your own opinion. I really loved that.
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I didn't drop it, I proved, mathematically, why DT was broken in Fallout 1/2/NV, and then everyone else moved on.
Your attempts to constantly resurrect it, without me taking the hook, doesn't mean I dropped it.
This is just like the DR/DT thing. YOU constantly attempting to resurrect an already finished discussion is your problem.
I would love to see you counteract hard math, and basic game design principles every game dev on the planet at least attempts to follow.
ThatZenoGuy
Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism
Nice argumentum ad populum right there.
First off...
Every game dev using X=/=X is good.
Lets just get that out of the way.
Now, you are fired at by a unit doing 10 damage (A VERY SMALL GUN).
You have two options.
Lets give the player 50%DR (High end armour.
You take 5 damage each hit, all the armour is doing, is doubling your health.
Now lets give him 10DT (Heavier leather armour, low tier metal armour(?))
No bleedthrough means you take no damage, because the armour is taking the blow for you.
Now lets say the damage is doubled, 20.
50%DR still only doubles your health.
10DT now absorbs 10 of it, meaning you take 10 damage, effectively doubling your health from this sort of hit.
Lets say its 100! damage!
Take a guess what DR does?
Now DT reduces it to 90 damage, meaning you are roughly 10% more durable to damage.
What does this show? It shows that DT is a more realistic, and overall more dynamic form of armour.
DR is lazy, nothing else.
DT means that armour actually matters against damage which it should by all means tank, and is penetrated by heavier arms.
Who the fuck wants their million dollar power armour to take damage from a fucking radroach?
Everything you just showed is exactly why no sane game developer would use DT as it was in Fo1/2, and why DT in New Vegas had a bleedthrough on it.
At no point in a game should you ever become immune to damage from any source because it trivializes the game's content.
Game balance is always more important then hardcore realism. Every, single, time.
Not even games that even try to have some basis in realism work like that, for that exact reason.
Jogre
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Except that you were quite literally the one who suggested that certain areas be cut off from the player until they reach a certain point in the story.
That is kinda the very definition of railroading.
Has it occurred to you that the reason no other game has done that, is because of the type of backgrounds games come from, and not because it's a good system.
The only games that really need to have high-level equipment are Roleplaying Games, and perhaps for a level of challenge First Person Shooters.
First Person Shooters are built entirely around balance, because the whole point in them lies in either creating a few basic challenges for the player to overcome, or to create multiplayer experiences.
Other Roleplaying Games often base there systems off of classical tabletop games, where having armor that powerful would be trivial.
A. If you are wearing a full-suit of Power Armor, you aren't going to struggle with low-level encounters anyway. Forcing you to take tiny bits of damage despite how weak the attacks are won't change the outcome of any combat, so much as just being a minor annoyance because you have to rest up after fighting Geckos in your Power Armor.
B. Your not fully immune to damage. Any creature can break through your armor with a well-placed critical hit.
ThatZenoGuy
Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism
Are you literally that fucking dense?
No, DT does not trivialise a game's content, DR DOES!
What is the point of DR, if even the mightiest power armour can be matched by some leather garbs and some chems/perks?
In FO3, I managed to get the cap of DR with some pretty shit gear, making power armour useless.
In FONV/1/2 (Modded for no bleedthrough), more DT is ALWAYS a good thing, and there will always be a big bad enemy to deal damage to you.
Even with the monstrous DT AND DR system which 1/2 had, enemies could damage you.
To make this clear, even with 90% DR, and 20+DT, enemies could still hurt you, by no means say it makes you invincible.
Just a few hours ago, I was torn apart by mere GECKOS, who managed to get some crippling critical hits which did insane amounts of damage, despite myself being in Enclave power armour.
In a purely DR system, armour isn't armour, its just making your healthbar bigger, why not simplify it more by simply giving armour a +health bonus instead? Its the same damned thing.
DT is armour, DR is just a bigger healthbar.
I honestly cannot comprehend how you think such lazy armour systems, which nearly every game uses, is the best thing.
No, being a drone who follows 'whatever everyone uses' is not a good thing, at all.
The best systems in games are thresholds, and they always will be.
Fallout used it, War Thunder tanks use it (On a more complex scale), and countless other games use a threshold system instead of a 'percentage resistance' system.
Balance is one thing, and 'hardcore realism' is another.
But don't you dare say that a raider with a .22 revolver should damage you in any way, barring a turnbased critical hit.
Well
1. Whats the point of power armor in DT if leather armor + chems and perks can match it as well? Its possible to achieve the same thing in NV.
2. The DR cap in Fallout 3 is 85%. The single suit of T-51b power armor in the game will only get you to 60, and even with the 1 rank of toughness(which adds + 10), and Barkskin(which adds +5) you will still wont reach the DR cap. And that is disregarding the fact no merchant can repair the suit to 100%, meaning you can never have it at max DR. The only way to reach max DR in Fallout 3 without power armor is to just spam Med-X(+25) all the time(and that requires massive hording, spamming the use of it, and seeking chem addition cures if you haven't taken the perk), or by exploiting Nerd Rage(+50). both of which are playstyles that require a lot of micromanaging.
3. Your point about Geckos only shows another flaw in your reasoning. If PA is supposed to be so great, how are Geckos damaging your at all? Even with critical hits, a Gecko just has small teeth, and some claws, and should be doing no damage to your PA. You went from "PA should be able to deflect all this damage because logic!" to "PA should allow you to be damaged by things it logically shouldn't if game magic is involved"
All you have really shown is that Fallout 1/2 had poor internal consistency(mechanics wise), and that Fallout 3 and later games needed to limit how much of a chem you could take in a certain amount of time to prevent things like Med-X spam, as well as introducing a timer on things like Nerd Rage that only let it activate once every X seconds.
Railroading is a game only letting you go down a single path.
Every RPG has certain areas you can't reach until a certain point in the story. That does not mean you only have one path in the game.
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BigGuyCIA
Yer fond of me Lobster!
Not having to use chems or invest in perks to achieve the same result.
Do you actually even play any of these games or do you just read/pore over wikia pages and think you have an idea of how everything works on paper rather than in practice?
Well it is a giant gecko. Something that large hurling itself at you would be enough to do some concussive damage or cause trauma. DT bleedthrough was intended to prevent character's with high DT from just running around and trivializing encounters.
DT wasn't just something that made the player tougher to kill. The player was issued the challenge of selecting the right ammo for the job because enemies with high armor were going to need the more uncommon AP bullets. Hollowpoints were fucking useless against high DT enemies unless you felt like blowing an entire pool of ammunition on killing 1 dude.
Fo4 trivializes every encounter with horrendous power creep that's only offset by blowing up the NPCs health power. DT = pick your ammunition. DR = get as much damage as you possibly can and overwhelm them with raw DPS. There's nothing remotely interesting about that.
That was the exact point I was making......
CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
In all fairness, some of the folks on Sugarbombed are not as thickheaded as Greed here. It's kinda insulting to them to associate Greed with Sugarbombed.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Only one example, only one fucking example which is only mentioned by two... one fucking person suddenly makes Morrowind breaking the fourth wall and having bad main quest design. Skyrim does the same thing, yet JUST because it's not said directly means it's okay! Well guess what? Morrowind doesn't say it straight and fast to your face. I fail to see how this...
aspect and uncertain parents: "If what you say is true, you are indeed born on a certain day of uncertain parents. This is part of the prophecy. But many have the same birthday, and many are not sure of their parents. It is interesting. But it does not make you the Nerevarine."
suddenly becomes 'hi, lel just because you're a chosen one doesn't mean you can't fail'. Or this...
pass the test: "You are not the Nerevarine. You are one who may become the Nerevarine. It is a puzzle, and a hard one. But you have found some of the pieces, and you may find more. Do you choose to be the Nerevarine? Then seek the lost prophecies among the Dissident priests of the Temple. Find the lost prophecies, bring them to me, and I will be your guide. And take these copies of the Stranger and the Seven Visions. Now. I have told you all I know. Go. Think on what I've told you. And do what must be done."
which weirdly isn't just 'lel, you're not Nerevarine cause, you know you might fail.' If you're not actively searching for it, or paying attention to it you will miss it because one person (maybe Azura too) says it in an enigmatic manner. Saying that many NPCs say it false, and if you mean the fact that once you're a Nerevarine they crow about the fact that you are the Nerevarine... how is that different to Skyrim and the Dragonborn?
Ohhh really... so, do tell how you find out about them. Because you can find 'parallels' in Morrowind too, even though the term is vague and might encompass literally anything. But apart from that, how do you learn about the lore and background of Skyrim? Oblivion, fair enough. That game has a simple story and enemy which basically amounts to a magical daemon.
So you haven't actually proven it's more woven into the story in later games, apart from stating that it is. Because no, you don't get that from NPCSSSSS but from an NPC.
Good!
Kirkbride doesn't decide canon, especially as he only wrote a lot of books in Morrowind (that's all I can find so far).
You know, just because a game tells you that you can chose now to go down Hallway A or Hallway B, doesn't mean that it can't be also heavily railroaded with the narrative and content. See Fallout 4, which is the best example. What ever if you chose the Institute or the Brotherhood, you are still heavily 'guided' by the game to chose a certain path here, you just have a very rough illusion of choice here. Role playing, is virtually non-existant - not only because the game always, makes you the whimpy, grieving spouse that just steped out of the refridgerator and lost his wife and child.
CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
Plus he's not in development of any Elder Scrolls games so his input on canon can't actually count regardless of what Kirkbride lore obsessed folks may say.
Only his ideas are being used (like with the Thalmor & their plans to break Mundus that his CODA mentions) and superficially, I might add, since I have a feeling that the games will never reach the point of the 'evul' elves successfully destroying the world.
I wonder if he is miffed that the writers at Beth are appropriating his work as their own?
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1000 posts!
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-I was using the example you provided because you provided it.
-Yes
-Except nothing you posted is in the least big enigmatic. Nor is it hard to miss because its part of a main quest NPC who you have to talk to too advance the MQ.
By reading the books, notes, listening to the NPCs, taking note of the design of statues and paintings, and noticing patterns, similarities, and parallels between what they say, and other myths.
There is a reason why pictures like this are often passed around in discussions about TES lore
He is not the only person no. But it is mentioned in-game.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Five_Songs_of_King_Wulfharth
"And the Ash King, Wulfharth, hoary Ysmir, went and made peace with the Orcs in spite of his Nordic blood, and they brought many warriors but no wizards at all. Many Nords could not bring themselves to ally with their traditional enemies, even in the face of Red Mountain. They were close to desertion. Then Wulfharth said: “Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?” And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed."
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/michael-kirkbride-irc-qa-sessions
"Then Wulfharth said: "Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?" And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed." What did they really know? [From Five Songs of King Wulfharth]
They were inside the Dragon Break of the Red Moment.
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Dr Fallout
Centurion
-Yet suddenly that example transformed to multiple NPCs.
-So there's no real reason to complain about it.
-
1. She merely mentions that you're not the Nerevarine unless you go and fulfill the prophecies. She doesn't go outright and say you're not actually the chosen one, and leaves that for you to guess.
2. Wrong, you can miss it because you have to actually click on the topic, otherwise she doesn't say it. And you'll never know about it... unless you read books, listen to others and make your own conclusions.
The same fucking thing happens in Morrowind as well. By reading books, notes, listening to NPCs, taking note of the design of the architecture and etc, you will find out more about the world, it's lore and learn about various aspects of the story. That's not unique to Skyrim or Oblivion, it's literally done in all the games (apart from... maybe, the first two).By reading the books, notes, listening to the NPCs, taking note of the design of statues and paintings, and noticing patterns, similarities, and parallels between what they say, and other myths.
There is a reason why pictures like this are often passed around in discussions about TES lore
By the books he wrote, though I don't have a problem with it, let me remind you that not everything in legend is... true.
1. It was an example about Morrowind's atlas/encyclopedia style dialogue system in general.
2. To complain about Oblivion/Skyrim? No, because they do it well. There is plenty to complain about Morrowind's god awful handling of dialogue and the meta-point.
3. What you just said is contradictory "She doesn't tell you that your not the chosen one, but she says your not the chosen one unless you do these things!". Like, do you honestly not see the contradiction there?
4. Actually, IIRC, you have to click on that dialogue option to progress the MQ, making it unmissable.
This whole conversation was about Morrowind spoonfeeding you the meta-point, not the general lore.
Except the entire point of TES lore is that all myths are true, and that all contradictory versions of the gods exist simultaneously.