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Deleted member 93956
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A small mindless rant on games, graphics, brainwashed drones, and Fallout.
- Thread starter ThatZenoGuy
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ThatZenoGuy
Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism
Wow, really? Gaming the system by savescumming a percentage based system makes you win?
Who would have guessed?
You can pass 99% of the game via getting 1 hit criticals on everything with your fists if you're willing.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Everybody knows that Fo2 is all about getting the best gear and kill everything. Oh wait, it's not, you can actually avoid most of the combat if you make your character right and even then the only action sequence, Frank Horrigan has several ways to approach it without you having to directly be built for combat....
Jogre
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Morrowind is also a bad game because if you have prior knowledge of the game you call kill Dagoth Ur in under 3 minutes, right?
Oh wait, no it isn't, because the point of the game isn't to kill the end boss as quickly as possible, the point of the game is the journey.
Same logic applies to Fallout. The charm of Fallout isn't in getting the best equipment as soon as possible, it's about going on a long journey, and interacting with a post-apocalyptic world.
If you want to go, and exploit the freedom the game gives you by obtaining the most powerful armor in the game right away, go on ahead. It's not the games fault that you can do that, the game's designed in such a way that if you didn't know it was possible, you'd be strongly discouraged from it.
Just because you can use metagame knowledge to exploit a game, doesn't make the game bad. If you had actually played the game without reading up on it first, or if you were actually enjoying the adventuring part of the game, you wouldn't really have used that exploit.
ThatZenoGuy
Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism
Going to be honest, I just got fallout 2...And am doing the Navarro run... XD
Hell, what can I say, I like APA.
Hell, what can I say, I like APA.
Morrowind being tied as my favorite TES game, I can safely say yes, that part of Morrowind is bad game design. Which is why future games fixed that problem.
Yes it is, if the game wasn't so poorly designed you wouldn't be able to do it.
Yes it does, because a good game would have had the devs actually think enough about possible ways players could break, and would have fixed all the obvious major exploits like that.
Jogre
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Isn't it a little ironic that in the other thread you complained about New Vegas "Level-Locking" you from content, but in this thread you are complaining about being able to get armor too early in the game.
But there was literally no other way they could have done that.
There is no logical reason why a character wouldn't be able to infiltrate a military base until a certain point in there adventures.
If your so keen to criticize, name a better way that the devs could have done that?
Why though? Surely a dev should trust there player to play the game how they see fit. If the player wants to exploit the game, power to them, if they don't, that's fine too. Why are you so keen on dev's blocking people from exploiting the game?, it's those people's choice to play like that.
ThatZenoGuy
Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism
I find it hilarious he actually wants developers to railroad players into a single way of playing the game.
No, because those are two different things, that aren't mutually exclusive.
Sure there is, they could have made it to where the base couldn't be found until a certain point in the sotry ebcuase it was so well hidden. They don't have done something like fo3, NV, and 4 where the base simply has been set up until a certain point in the story.
Because that is basic game development? Your asking what amounts to asking "why should people who code things like websites not leave sloppy code people can exploit!"
Its called having pride in your work? wanting to make a functional product? Being good at your job? Wanting to make a game that's actually challenging?
This entire question just doesn't make any sense.
Not being able to get the best armor at level 1 =/= being railroaded to play the game only in one way.
What a fucking god-awful misrepresentation.
Jogre
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I don't know, but to me it seems like they have more pride in there work by not doing so.
"Let's give the player the freedom to interact with our world at the pace they choose" seems to show a lot more pride and maturity than "Let's completely block off a certain path from our players until certain points in the story, because we're scared that they may not play it in the way we intended them to"
Let's not forget that the story for Fallout 2 is very nonlinear.
There is not a fixed point they could have made the base visible, simply because there is no natural point where it would blend in, so either they'd have to make the story more linear(Which is not what they want to do), or keep it the way it is.
Except that if you don't know about the exploit, the game actually is challenging.
Just because there's a way to get through the game with relative ease, doesn't mean the game isn't challenging.
You could potentially cheat your way through Fallout 3/NV/4 by typing in console commands that make you invincible, but you don't do that, because it's breaking the trust the Devs give you to play the game responsibly. Same counts with the Power Armor Run, the devs trust you not to exploit the amount of freedom the game gives you.
Prone Squanderer
A bit of a Sillius Soddus.
I may be remembering this wrong as it's been a while since I've played Fallout 2, but I thought Navarro didn't show up on the map until you talk to Matt in San Francisco.
D
Deleted member 93956
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@Greed You are saying that challenges and content reachable out of the "suggested" progression, only by skilled and veteran players are bad game design?
Well Dark Souls is designed like shit apparently
As I see it, rewarding knowledged players is the best thing to do.
Otherwise, you have to stick to forced progression and have do the exact same shit every single time, and that's why Skyrim and Fallout 4 are a pain to replay, not even for bad role-playing and story worthy of the lowest fanfictions. You HAVE to level (grind if in a rush) and go around a while to make high-level gear to spawn, and the Damage-Armor system in that game is unnoticeable and unexplained anyway.
That's why it's interesting in Fo2 to force save scummin' for the APA, in Fo3 doing Operation Anchorage early for gear, going North from Goodsprings in NV, and that's only in Fallout.
It's not something a newcomer could make out or do naturally (0,001%) without walkthroughs, and encourages replayability.
Well Dark Souls is designed like shit apparently
As I see it, rewarding knowledged players is the best thing to do.
Otherwise, you have to stick to forced progression and have do the exact same shit every single time, and that's why Skyrim and Fallout 4 are a pain to replay, not even for bad role-playing and story worthy of the lowest fanfictions. You HAVE to level (grind if in a rush) and go around a while to make high-level gear to spawn, and the Damage-Armor system in that game is unnoticeable and unexplained anyway.
That's why it's interesting in Fo2 to force save scummin' for the APA, in Fo3 doing Operation Anchorage early for gear, going North from Goodsprings in NV, and that's only in Fallout.
It's not something a newcomer could make out or do naturally (0,001%) without walkthroughs, and encourages replayability.
Yup. And of course before the high-level speech checks, IIRC you have to talk to 2/3 of the BOS guys on their respective bunkers too.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
If you need to railroad people in your game so they play only how you like, it isn't pridewhat you have, just a very fragile ego.
CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
Plus what Greed wants is the exact opposite of good game design for Fallout where players are railroaded into a single role. It could work in a specialized RPG where you are supposed to play a role well (like in Witcher 3 where you are supposed to be a Witcher rather than a mage or archer etc.) but Fallout provides the freedom for any kind of build or role to be successful since the game is meant to allow for any PC's build to succeed. Why else would there be no roles in its 'beloved' Failout 4?
Here's an actual quote from a certain Fallout developer that effectively counters it's arguments on good game design requiring railroading:
(http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Chris_Avellone)
Also:
That's not bad game design. That is an exploit you can choose to take of your own free will and resorting to calling it bad game design is quite misleading. No one is telling you to use it.It's like blaming the restaurant for your extreme weight gain, it was still your decision to order half the menu every day for a year.
In fact, I still follow the normal flow of the main quest of Morrowind even with all my knowledge of Morrowind's exploits because it is interesting and has depth that no future Elder Scrolls games has reached. It has replay value that keeps me following the main quest to its very end.
I want nothing of the sort. Whats with this constant false equivalence argument that not want exploits = wanting to be able to play the game only one way?
>Morrowind MQ
>Depth
Morrowind barely had a MQ. And its MQ was easily the worst of any of the TES games sans those phone games or the Battlespire/Redguard spinoffs.
CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
Tough luck then. There will always be exploits in games, anyone can come up with exploits if they are creative enough with any game mechanics whether it be something as simple as walking around faster by constantly rolling or creating a broken, unbalanced build. No game can ever truly remove exploits from them (since some are tied to game mechanics like Deus Ex 1 or are too fun to be rid off), so you're being unrealistic and irrational then.
Now I know you never played the game, only read its wiki page. Or you were so deluded/misguided back then that you misinterpreted everything on purpose so that it can suit your narrative and agenda here.The game actually goes into detail on ideas like the nature of prophecy, reinterpretation of history by a dominant faction, deconstructions of the Chosen One idea (since the player may simply be someone who fits the superficial aspects of the prophecy and then fulfills them out of necessity rather than some mandate by prophecy like the Dragonborn for instance), differing recollections of history tainted by perspective, inquisitorial religions and more. All that was in an older game you claim to lack depth when compared to the other MQs in the same series so whatever drug you are on, I would like a sample or ten to forget how poorly you misinterpreted the game's MQ.
Plus there were actual substantial reactions and changes in-universe due to the PC's success in completing Morrowind's MQ (which so far, only Oblivion has successfully replicated).
Compare to Skyrim where the Civil War was too boring and too insignificant to care about, the dragons were not that much of a threat, Alduin was bland and unmemorable, and every side was trying to have graying morality to seem more complex when in reality, it did not amount to much.
Here's a video comparing Skyrim and Morrowind's MQ (and yes, I used the video's points to better articulate my points here):
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Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
If you don't want exploits you can always.... not use them? Unless you have some compulsory disorder that prevents you from doing anything differently.
CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
It probably has such a disorder based on how vehemently it does not want any exploits.
It must have used every exploit in its beloved Fallout 4 and probably blamed the game design for having them rather than itself.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Doesn't FO4 have an exploit right at the beginning where you can get all your SPECIAL stats to 10 by asking your dog to pick up a book and then clone it by the magic of the Gamebryo engine?
CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
Not sure, I never used such an exploit (nor did I ever intend to).
There are plenty of game breaking exploits in 4 listed here (along with other worthier Fallout games):
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/GameBreaker/Fallout