According to The Escapist's Extra Credits...

[C2B]

If only Bethesda did something interesting with the growing up thing, instead of the whole, "Your dad loves you, Amata likes you, Butch hates you" shit you're stuck with. It would've been cool if you picked on Amata when she was younger, she wouldn't tell you that her father was trying to kill you and you would walk into like 3 security guards or something. But nope, apparently it's super-IMMURSHIVE just the way it is= according to game journalists.

You know. "Interesting" would not even be a requirment for me. Making SENSE is.

Because the entire beginning is just a big case of not making sense at all. At least to me. I'm still trying to make logical sense what happened when you left the vault. I just can't fit the pieces together. Or what in the world happened at your 10? birthday where you got to shoot some mutated cockroach? Really? Wouldn't that be some serious breach?

 

[Jasan Quinn]

F:NV did have a weaker story as far as I'm concerned. I've heard every kind of argument to justify it (my favourite being "you've never been to the Mohave before". Riiight...), but every attempt falls short. New Vegas' "story", such as it is, never egaged me beyond the 'will there be loot?' level. I felt the location and factions were really well done, and the various motivations were believable, but I always felt as if my presence was so horribly forced, as if Obsidian had written the game to play itself, then reluctantly let me get involved.

I think the best way for me to explain it is to compare the two games; Fallout 3 felt like everything revolved around you, to the point where nothing happened unless you made it happen.

Fallout: New Vegas has a world that carries on without you, but because it doesn't need you, you don't matter.

 

[Ravager69]

In response to the oirignal post - I think having to have an one-hour long prologue just to be able to immerse yourself means you don't have a good imagination or resolve to go into to the game on your own. New Vegas gives you freedom in how you want to immerse yourself - nobody is forcing you to do things you may not care about only because the devs thought you would. Goodsprings, provided you walk around, talk to everyone and do all the quests, is a good introduction to the world and I couldn't help but to like people there. Honest, decent folk caught up in a conflict which is of no real interest to them, yet may end up with their demise. Will you help them fend off the bandits and end up getting attacked by powder gangers all the time or do you work in their spite to gain the gangs favor? I don't know about you, but things like this actually make me care about the game's world and the people in it - it let's me immerse myself.

In Fallout 3, there's the vault. You first experience your birth, Yeah, well I don't know how it is of any consequence to the game and I'm kinda able to imagine my character had to be born at some time, no need to make a reconstruction of it. Not that I remember my own birth by the way. Then there's growing up. Who would like to play a 3 year and then 10 year old kid just to have a couple lines of dialogue and fake choices\consequences situations is beyond me. People in the vault are pretty much cardboard models, with nothing interesting to say and with which you can do anything and it won't change a thing. At the end there's the escape sequence which makes no fucking sense at all - your dad leaves you in a locked up place ruled by a fanatic to keep you safe? Is he retarded? I had no desire to have anything with him after that, but was railroaded into finding him. As far as I remember immersion is not forcing you to do things you find utterly devoid of sense.

Since no matter what course of action you take in the vault nothing changes in the game itself, I'd say the whole sequence is badly designed, time-consuming and simply disallows you to do what you really want in the game. To be honest, it makes me immerse myself in the game even less, because why would I care about anything that happened there? I leave the vault and nobody knows or give a damn about it, so why bother?

 

[Atomkilla]

Fallout 3 felt like everything revolved around you, to the point where nothing happened unless you made it happen.

Fallout: New Vegas has a world that carries on without you, but because it doesn't need you, you don't matter.

Well, that's a good thing. World shouldn't revolve around you, you should find a spot and make something of it in the revolving world.
Both in the game (at least in an RPG) and in real life.

 

[Jasan Quinn]

Fallout 3 felt like everything revolved around you, to the point where nothing happened unless you made it happen.

Fallout: New Vegas has a world that carries on without you, but because it doesn't need you, you don't matter.

Well, that's a good thing. World shouldn't revolve around, you should find a spot and make something of it in the revolving world.
Both in the game (at least in an RPG) and in real life.

That CAN be a good thing. The problem is that New Vegas has painted this wonderful picture of a world on the edge of war... but that's all it is, a painting.

What New Vegas needed was a game clock. Day 7, the Powder Gangers raid Goodsprings. Day 31, a Deathclaw runs rampant through a trade caravan. Day 366, Caesar's Legion invade. If it actually felt like the major events of this game WERE happening without me, I'd be happy. As it is, New Vegas just sits there impatiently tapping its foot and demanding I finish a series of quests for it so it can get on with things.

I think that is primarily why games don't try for the whole "living, breathing world" thing anymore; the sheer amount of additional complexity it puts in place is a nightmare to deal with.

 

[White Knight]

Fallout 3 felt like everything revolved around you, to the point where nothing happened unless you made it happen.

Fallout: New Vegas has a world that carries on without you, but because it doesn't need you, you don't matter.

Well, that's a good thing. World shouldn't revolve around, you should find a spot and make something of it in the revolving world.
Both in the game (at least in an RPG) and in real life.

That CAN be a good thing. The problem is that New Vegas has painted this wonderful picture of a world on the edge of war... but that's all it is, a painting.

What New Vegas needed was a game clock. Day 7, the Powder Gangers raid Goodsprings. Day 31, a Deathclaw runs rampant through a trade caravan. Day 366, Caesar's Legion invade. If it actually felt like the major events of this game WERE happening without me, I'd be happy. As it is, New Vegas just sits there impatiently tapping its foot and demanding I finish a series of quests for it so it can get on with things.
I think that is primarily why games don't try for the whole "living, breathing world" thing anymore; the sheer amount of additional complexity it puts in place is a nightmare to deal with.

I don't get it. Your berating Fallout New Vegas for doing it, but Fallout 3 did this as well.

 

[Atomkilla]

I understand how you feel about the game "demanding you to finish a series of quests for it so it can get on with things", but in reality, many games work that way, and Fallout: New Vegas and Fallout 3 are no exceptions.
What I don't understand, like White Knight pointed out, is why you don't like that in New Vegas, while in Fallout 3 same things happened, lot more.

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

What New Vegas needed was a game clock. Day 7, the Powder Gangers raid Goodsprings. Day 31, a Deathclaw runs rampant through a trade caravan. Day 366, Caesar's Legion invade.

They could but they won't because RPG players for the most part hate that kind of thing.

 

[C2B]

(my favourite being "you've never been to the Mohave before". Riiight...),

Yes, why should you?

The Mojave by any means is a war zone/frontier that is filled with raiders. Its perfectly reasonable that you would not have visited before even as a courier.

And even then to what argument does this matter? Also, "every attempt falls short". Could you elaborate what "falls short", or do you just dismiss the arguments?

 

[Jasan Quinn]

I guess it's because it happened differently. My first playthrough of FO3 I was on the side of the Brotherhood and wanted to help them. As such, I was not "forced" into the quests, because I was happy to go along with it.

In New Vegas, I was forced to wipe out the Brotherhood despite the fact I wanted them on my side. I had already befriended the Boomers, and I could find no other way to progress in the game. Also, EVERY SINGLE FACTION makes the same demands of you.

What Obsidian should have done was put in Option 4 for every single one of these subquests; "No." You want me to help you fight Caesar? Fine, but I won't fight anyone else for you. Do it yourself and die trying, or move on.

 

[C2B]

I guess it's because it happened differently. My first playthrough of FO3 I was on the side of the Brotherhood and wanted to help them. As such, I was not "forced" into the quests, because I was happy to go along with it.

So,..... its totally ok because you wanted to go along with it. And... that makes it somewhat open. Or in any form relevant, since someone else could have a different opinion than you? (For once, I had no desire to find or help my dad in Fallout3)

 

[Crni Vuk]

I guess it's because it happened differently. My first playthrough of FO3 I was on the side of the Brotherhood and wanted to help them. As such, I was not "forced" into the quests, because I was happy to go along with it..

There is a way in Fallout 3 to NOT end on the side of the Brotherhood ? Please elaborate. Fallout 3 is pretty close to a rail-road shooter with only very little in "choices".

In New Vegas, I was forced to wipe out the Brotherhood despite the fact I wanted them on my side. I had already befriended the Boomers, and I could find no other way to progress in the game. Also, EVERY SINGLE FACTION makes the same demands of you.

Maybe you should have chosen your allies better then. Or your skills. I was able to side with the NCR and pacific them with the Brotherhood (more or less ...). I have no clue what the boomers have to do with that since I had no trouble to get them as allies with the NCR either. Are you sure you did not simply just run in to some kind of bug ? If you had the Legion as friends. Well sorry. But It is no surprise that they would not negotiate with the Brotherhood. Seriously. This sounds more like you made some decisions which have now consequences and you blame the game for it that you can't have it all. But that is just my idea. Vegas sure gets pretty boring sometimes and I hated the fight over Hoover dam because it was in my eyes pretty anti-climatic (maybe 10 years ago I would have accepted it. But now ?). Though when it comes to the factions and the interaction with them Vegas did a splendid job here.

 

[Jasan Quinn]

So,..... its totally ok because you wanted to go along with it. And... that makes it somewhat open. Or in any form relevant, since someone else could have a different opinion than you? (For once, I had no desire to find or help my dad in Fallout3)

Well here's the thing; whether or not something is forced, or railroading, or whatever, entirely depends on personal perception. I think I only actually completed the entire Fallout 3 storyline twice; the rest of the time I went off and did my own thing and all but ignored the plot. As such, it does not feel forced to me because the first time I was happy to go along, and the second time I was just blitzing the endgame to unlock Broken Steel's additional story segments.
The result? My memory of that segment of the game is fairly positive.

With New Vegas, I beat the game four times. In my initial playthrough I was forced to make a major plot choice I didn't want to, and I didn't particularly want to the next three times either. By the end I was doing it for lulz rather than plot.
The result? My memory of that segment of the game is overwhelmingly negative.

Generally speaking, these specific instances mirror my entire experience of both games; I rarely felt irritated by FO3's plot, whilst if anything F:NV seemed hindered by it. The rather weak notion of "You have amnesia. Some guy shot you in the face. Go get revenge!" was enough to carry me through the wasteland, and I honestly did enjoy plotting my revenge (I was really, really happy with how I resolved that encounter. Extremely satisfying!) but the problem is the game carried on.

In Fallout 3, when your father dies you have a clear goal - to continue his legacy. In New Vegas, you have no goal. Your goal was to kill the son of a bitch who tried to murder you. You've done that. Hell, you might have eaten him if your Perks were picked appropriately. Job Done. Why, then, am I supposed to care about Mr House, the NCR, Caesar's Legion and their three way battle for power? I didn't feel invested in that, and so when I was not only dragged into the middle of the war that didn't involve me, but forced to wipe out factions I had previously been trying to befriend, if not outright join, I felt cheated.

That is what I meant about New Vegas being badly done story wise. I loved that all this stuff was going on around me, I just resent the fact that I'm forced to take a central role in it without motivation, or even a particularly convincing plot hook.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I really don't see what you mean actually with your criticism. Vegas is doing more or less the EXACT same like Fallout 3 (roaming around, blowing up shit, without doing any quests etc.) but actually offers you STORYLINE to it as well ! (Rocket facility with the ghouls). There is so much stuff to do in that game which has nothing to do with the plot at all that I am baffled how one can complain about the "forced plot" in Vegas when it really is not forced ...

 

[Jasan Quinn]

I really don't see what you mean actually with your criticism. Vegas is doing more or less the EXACT same like Fallout 3 (roaming around, blowing up shit, without doing any quests etc.) but actually offers you STORYLINE to it as well ! (Rocket facility with the ghouls). There is so much stuff to do in that game which has nothing to do with the plot at all that I am baffled how one can complain about the "forced plot" in Vegas when it really is not forced ...

I think you misunderstand here; I'm not talking about subplots and stuff like that.

Fallout 3's Plot is, more or less, as follows:
You begin as a Vault Dweller, oblivious to the wider world. You learn your father has somehow left the Vault (an impossibility to your mind) and are forced to go after him. You find yourself in a world you know nothing about, desperately seeking the only person left in the world you can rely on.
Eventually, after encountering various groups and individuals, you are reuinited with your father and learn of his plans with the Purifier. However, your efforts are ultimately thwarted by the appearance of the hitherto unseen Enclave. It now falls to you to complete your father's work, and with the aid of the Brotherhood of Steel, the Enclave are ultimately thwarted and the Wasteland saved (assuming you're the good guy...).

The game has a clear narrative throughout. Whether or not you buy into the motivations, that is what the writer is going for. Honestly, I tend to agree with the people who were more than happy to give Dad a shotgun enema when they found him, and I was firmly in that camp myself initially, but for me, personally, the overall narrative of FO3 flowed together nicely.


With New Vegas, it wasn't so clear cut. The meta-crisis of whether or not I was supposed to have prior knowledge of the Mohave aside, NV is a short and simple tale of personal revenge, and that tale ends halfway through the game. I rarely encounted Caesar's Legion prior to the Endgame, and when I did I hadn't done enough to make them overtly hostile so I rarely HAD to fight them. The NCR were often trying to kill me though, so I must have done something to piss them off...
I didn't experience ANY of the Kings plotline, because I got filthy rich in the Casino playing Blackjack and bought my way into New Vegas proper. Once there I promptly found my mark, got flirty to lure him into the bedroom, and beat him to death with my bare hands.

End Of Story.

So, having completed what we set out to do... where is the motivation for the rest of it? I had set out to do an Evil playthrough, but along the way I had found myself neither sadistically sociopathic enough to want to burn New Vegas down for the evulz, nor had I undergone an altruistic epiphany and devoted myself to the good of the common man. No, I was a woman (well, my Character was. I'm pretty sure I am still male) just trying to make her way in the Mohave, and for reasons I cannot really remember getting picked on by NCR rangers a lot. I didn't really see where the motivation to get involved in the Grand Scheme came from... and I still don't.

That is why I don't think New Vegas has a good story. It has a brilliant SETTING, but the actual plot that steers you through it is badly done.

 

[Szadou]

With New Vegas, it wasn't so clear cut. The meta-crisis of whether or not I was supposed to have prior knowledge of the Mohave aside, NV is a short and simple tale of personal revenge, and that tale ends halfway through the game. I rarely encounted Caesar's Legion prior to the Endgame, and when I did I hadn't done enough to make them overtly hostile so I rarely HAD to fight them. The NCR were often trying to kill me though, so I must have done something to piss them off...
I didn't experience ANY of the Kings plotline, because I got filthy rich in the Casino playing Blackjack and bought my way into New Vegas proper. Once there I promptly found my mark, got flirty to lure him into the bedroom, and beat him to death with my bare hands.

End Of Story.

So, having completed what we set out to do... where is the motivation for the rest of it? I had set out to do an Evil playthrough, but along the way I had found myself neither sadistically sociopathic enough to want to burn New Vegas down for the evulz, nor had I undergone an altruistic epiphany and devoted myself to the good of the common man. No, I was a woman (well, my Character was. I'm pretty sure I am still male) just trying to make her way in the Mohave, and for reasons I cannot really remember getting picked on by NCR rangers a lot. I didn't really see where the motivation to get involved in the Grand Scheme came from... and I still don't.

Even after getting revenge on Benny you're still the courier hired to deliver the platinum chip to Mr. House... So if you can't get motivated to do stuff without also having to look for a middle-aged looking guy, how about simply doing the job you're getting paid for in the first place and delivering the chip?

Or is that too hard to figure out despite everyone you meet constantly yapping about it?

 

[Jasan Quinn]

Even after getting revenge on Benny you're still the courier hired to deliver the platinum chip to Mr. House... So if you can't get motivated to do stuff without also having to look for a middle-aged looking guy, how about simply doing the job you're getting paid for in the first place and delivering the chip?

Or is that too hard to figure out despite everyone you meet constantly yapping about it?

Yeah, there is that... but honestly the Platinum Chip had lost its importance to me by that point.

Don't misunderstand me, I had hardly thrown up my hands and declared "why the fuck do I still have to play this game!?" but my motivations were no longer story driven.

That said, as my post elsewhere here proves, I did take a lot of pleasure in both the subplots, and creating my own narrative. Fighting the Van Graffs on behalf of a woman I'd accidentally fallen in love with was a real high point of New Vegas for me. Shame it wasn't part of the main plot.

 

[C2B]

Even after getting revenge on Benny you're still the courier hired to deliver the platinum chip to Mr. House... So if you can't get motivated to do stuff without also having to look for a middle-aged looking guy, how about simply doing the job you're getting paid for in the first place and delivering the chip?

Or is that too hard to figure out despite everyone you meet constantly yapping about it?

Yeah, there is that... but honestly the Platinum Chip had lost its importance to me by that point.

Don't misunderstand me, I had hardly thrown up my hands and declared "why the fuck do I still have to play this game!?" but my motivations were no longer story driven.

That said, as my post elsewhere here proves, I did take a lot of pleasure in both the subplots, and creating my own narrative. Fighting the Van Graffs on behalf of a woman I'd accidentally fallen in love with was a real high point of New Vegas for me. Shame it wasn't part of the main plot.

You know what I read and hear a lot from you?

Me. Me. Me.

It's pretty sad you can't seem to find the motivation or anything else. Doesn't matter anything for objectivity or is any relevant to anything.

F3s and New Vegas Main Plot are differently structured to begin with. You can't compare them like you do. F3s main plot isn't automatically better structered or written because your railroded.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

I guess it's because it happened differently. My first playthrough of FO3 I was on the side of the Brotherhood and wanted to help them. As such, I was not "forced" into the quests, because I was happy to go along with it.

And if you hated them? Or were playing an evil character? You are forced to side with them regardless of everything. Isn't it better to have the choice NV gives you?

By the way, as the others have said you can avoid destroying the BoS.

The rather weak notion of "You have amnesia.

Can you tell me why you believe that? Why do you think that the idea that he never was in the Mojave area before is ridicolous? He doesn't know anything of the area so the possible explanations are:
a)he lived in a cave (or Vault )
b)he has amnesia
c)he was never there before
We know it's not A, we have been told by the developers it's not B, so why do you think it's not C?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

With New Vegas, I beat the game four times. In my initial playthrough I was forced to make a major plot choice I didn't want to, and I didn't particularly want to the next three times either. By the end I was doing it for lulz rather than plot.

Are you trolling? Really that's the whole fucking bloody point of roleplaying games, you make a choice it has consequences. Your actions affect the game world if you open door a it locks and bolts door b, the narrative should be loose in a good roleplaying game. There shouldn't be any essential characters, if you fail a quest that should be just as valid as completing it. Stats and skill points don't make a roleplaying game, neither does and inventory or character customisation the developers shouldn't need to give you any motivation, personally I thought the game didn't really need the courier subplot, but then Obsidian just love their chosen one tropes.