Are you happy for Fallout to remain Post-post apocalyptic?

Discussion in 'Future Fallout Game Discussion' started by SomeBritishDude, Nov 8, 2010.

  1. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    I'm totally happy with that; I don't look at visual destruction as much as moral destruction. You know, no black and white, but all black or at least dark gray. All factions are bad, bad people all over the damn place, few good people willing to join the cause of helping humanity... that sort of crap.

    I don't mind NCR restoring train tracks and running trains with goods and soldiers over the few states they have. Besides, we all seem to be forgetting there's practically no oil. Without oil, there's pretty much no civilization, unless a few masterminds collect and think of new fossils. So to be honest, even if the NCR keeps on fighting and reaches DC, Canada and Mexico, kills raiders and mutants, they still haven't got ships (or only a few) or planes (only short distance ones) to advance. Hell, we probably wouldn't see cars. Only brahmin.

    Come on. Have you seen what the Republic controls, anyway? If we make games with little time in between them and set them in outer areas (such as my own idea is set to the North, near the Canadian border and even reaches out for a part of Canada, just above the Fallout 2 map) where there's still no law (or perhaps instead of Shady Sands, an equivalent of Khans prospered). Hell, we could even see a new Brotherhood-type group, except the fact that it wouldn't be so xenophobic and would come out there to kick more ass in Power Armor. Maybe they're set to kill everyone out there (Enclave), or maybe they're helping everyone instead (but see NCR as a bad choice).

    Lots of ideas. Millions. I made this up in 5 minutes and it sucks, let's brainstorm for 5 months and I guarantee you, it's not going to suck as much.
     
  2. Wintermind

    Wintermind Vault Senior Citizen

    Jan 21, 2011
    Actually, civilization is not entirely dependent on oil. Mad Max is certainly an influence on Fallout, but Fallout isn't Mad Max.
     
  3. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    I agree, but there's a reason they started a nuclear world war over it. So obviously, petroleum played a very important (if not the most important) role in the pre-war Fallout world. Otherwise they'd just continue kicking each other's asses with guns and making baseless threats. :wink:
     
  4. Krinkels

    Krinkels First time out of the vault

    20
    Nov 12, 2011
    I'd think it would help the setting if there wasn't so much futuristic weapons technology just lying around. Power armor, energy weapons, functional guns and plentiful bullets lie everywhere in the series. Furthermore, operational computers and edible pre-war foods remain in Fallouts 3 and NV.

    I would consider it much more post-apocalyptic if there weren't so many pre-war machines still working, so many guns still firing. Shouldn't most post-apocalyptic societies not have access to such loot? In such a society, should these things be repurposed for simpler uses once they quickly break down and none can repair it? Take, for example, the cars which have been halved and are now being drawn by beasts of burden, or the scrap metal on which Junktown was built. All of these have broken, and everything else, in time, should break. Shouldn't this principle apply for all things after the war? Since the settlements in Fallout are supposedly agrarian, why is all the research directed towards laser weapons and bullet casings and Jet? I would think that the efforts of the NCR and Brotherhood to preserve technology would be directed towards their survival. It's not as if raiders are the only problem to befall anything. What of starvation? Disease? Infant mortality? Drought? All of the things which have plagued society until the industrial revolution should apply in Fallout. That is why the main quests of the first two games made some sort of sense. They weren't concerned with making a better plasma rifle, or about fighting a war. They were concerned with logistics, and that should be the problem with which anyone deals with when considering postapocalyptia.

    It is because of the desire to include power armor and plasma weapons in Fallout 2 combined with the intention of setting it a whopping 164 years after the great war which led to this problem. To make that plausible, the Brotherhood had to be technology police, the Enclave needed to have better technology, and technology had to mean pre-war weapons. While this worked, it introduced the need for a date at which Fallout becomes Star Trek. In fact, Star Trek does take place after a nuclear war in 2053, and First Contact does deal with Hubologists building a spaceship and founding a space empire. If people keep on treating science fiction stuff as the only kind of technology, Fallout will become post-post-apocalytpic, if it hasn't already. What about gasoline engines or manufacturing or irrigation or the things which are never seen in the newer Fallouts but should be? I think that the setting has mostly been screwed up by the continued appearance of the Brotherhood, the move to new locations but the inclusion of the exact same factions, the lack of willingness to include very large settlements after 1998, the transition to an FPS series, and the consideration of weapons as technology. Another nuclear war or a location change is definitely not the solution. Think about what would become of the world if another nuclear war happens in Fallout. All elements of a functional society would be eliminated. It would go from a bunch of guys in power armor fighting with leet lazors for some three shack hamlets to a bunch of guys in power armor with nothing to do but shoot each other. All role playing elements would be gone with the blast wave, because everything interesting would be wiped out.

    Do we really want a location change, either? Did anyone commend Bethesda for its 'brilliant' move across America? No one will have the creative talent to do anything but to drag some elements from other games over there but leave behind their depth and purpose, sticking their peckers in the ol' howitzer along the way. I think the lore and world are well and truly fucked, and no remedy will solve them. We should absolutely, however, stop having decade long skips between the games, especially if the NCR is entering a period of explosive expansion. If it is to remain post-apocalyptic game, the designers should abandon the 'we should add cool things' policy which has persisted since Fallout 2. It should always take place at the NCR's border. Technological progress should progress the same way it did in the real world, not having science labs come up with things which don't exist, but recovering things which have been lost. Things like fire ant shrinking should not be researched. Things like what the Shi were researching should be. Space programs shouldn't exist until the world is rebuilt. The way to prevent post-post-apocalyptia is to build the setting upon consistency and logic.

    It will be tough, reversing the damage that every game since the original has done. I think that the continued appearance of towns which are built around farming, trading and occasionally mining will help. No more towns whose sole product is Jet and Rad Scorpion booty. No more favelas whose inhabitants do nothing but shuffle their feet, especially in a city which is supposedly overrun by super-powerful militias who prevent real settlements from forming. No more towns which are not towns, but are ships and craters and caves and hotels and have a dozen people at most. The focus on seeing and hearing everything has to go, too. Abstractions of larger settlements need to be reintroduced. Even using Gamebryo, it's not a mechanical problem. Observe the blocked off doors in the vault which is supposed to hold hundreds of people, or the division of Washington D.C. into dungeons and above-ground squares. It may seem like the city stretches into forever, but tcl reveals that there are parts of the city which are never modeled, and you never realize it. This can be made even easier by spacing these out, requiring use of a world map used like it was in the original.

    The setting needs improvement and is most likely beyond repair, but what I've just said may be a start.
     
  5. JackBurton

    JackBurton First time out of the vault

    19
    Dec 14, 2011
    First of all, hi to the nma community, im new here but a big fan of the Fallout series.

    Much has been said about the topic, but i want to give my 2 cents... Are you happy for Fallout to remain Post-post apocalyptic? ... hell no!!!!

    For me, and i'm sure for others too, Fallout is Fallout because of all its elements... so i'm not very happy for it being more and more post-post-post...-apocalyptic. So for me, the solution is not to make new fallouts happen in far away places (althought could be cool anyways!). I think that revising the time between games is the key to solve that. Let's see, by 2159-60 the first Fallout, the second, 2241-42 (80 years :shock: ), the others are set 2277 (F3) and 2281 (FNV). Also i read somewhere that Fallout's fallout was to disapear or disolve around 2330 (i think it is in-game info, i think you read it in a vault's computer, but can't remember the game... grrrr). Anyways, the main reading of that is the huge time loop it takes from 1 to 2, compared to 35 to F3, and FNV just 4-5 years more. I think that the loop between F1 and 2 was because they weren't planning to do so many games, and that's why F3 and NV are so close in tineline. I think too, it's logic that it's becoming more and more post-post-post-ap looking at that dates, but maybe it doesnt need to go on and on.

    Maaaaaybeee ( :mrgreen: ) they could set futute games in the... "past"? A few years after F1, between 1 and 2, just after or before 2... All of them look to me as easier dates to set the game to make them more Fallout-feeling again. It will help to with other discussion topics: "isn't the fallout to dissapear in 200 years?", "there must be regrowth and recivilization if 200 years passed", "there could be more armament developement in 200 years", and so on.

    Talking about Krinkels arguments... i support you in believing the setting would gain if there wasn't SO much futuristic technology unless it's "logical" or hard to gain (that's why i love F1 over F2), BUT i think it's absolutelly necessary to have it. Fallout is not only a post-ap game. Fallout is a sci-fi-pulp post-ap game, with a huge ap consecuence of aberrant McCarthyism, "hot" cold war and a world resource conflict. For me, without any of this elements, the falloutfeeling starts to disappear (and have to admit i'm in love with t51 & laser rifle) . That's how it was born and that's how i'd like to see it again. 8-)

    As it's my first post i'd like to thank the comunity for maintaining alive the Fallout spirit and thank FO modders for his work. Sorry if the text is too long or confused, english is not my home-language.

    This is Jack Burton in the Pork Chop Express, and I'm talkin' to whoever's listenin' out there... regards!
     
  6. JackBurton

    JackBurton First time out of the vault

    19
    Dec 14, 2011
    PS: On Sub-Human's comment... although i have to agree with the first part, it was the reason to begin the war... the second is your own view :wink: According to my main source (FOwiki), it's clear that the resources war itself make America (american military) view it's own dependance on the oil:
    "Fuel becomes too precious to waste on automobiles, so alternatives are explored - electric and fusion cars begin to be manufactured, but factories can only make limited amounts while conserving fuel" (2060),
    And the starting prototipes of power armour helped that:
    "These prototypes pave the way for future advances in military, construction, and fusion technology" (2065),
    "The first crude fusion cell is unveiled, one of the results of the power armor project. Devices designed for the fusion cell begin to be manufactured. Incorporating fusion power into the general U.S. infrastructure begins" (2066),
    "The first of the Chryslus Motors fusion-driven cars are developed. Reassuringly big and American, the limited models carry a hefty price tag but are sold out within days" (2070)
    With that in mind, it is also said "the process is too slow to supply power to the regions that need it. Nearly eleven years later, few sections of the United States were supplied with fusion power" (2066). So, we can be sure war begin for oil resources, but the fact that "fusion sollution" was nearly ready that soon makes difficult for me to believe that it was its main goal to put hands on oil. As the U.S. was "winning" the war i can see that the real targets were anexionating Canada, Mexico, reconquer Alaska and invade China with tha oil/resources argument. Remember they were reaching those goals in many cases thank to fusion powered armours, energy weapons, and so. The fact that the military didn't allow or highly control/retain the "fusion sollution", doesn't mean they vastly used it to take advantage in war (and makes lots of sense looking at real world... scary thing :twisted: )

    This is Jack Burton in the Pork Chop Express, and I'm talkin' to whoever's listenin' out there... regards!
     
  7. orville1

    orville1 First time out of the vault

    7
    Dec 13, 2011
    Perhaps, Perhaps. Just maybe perhaps that.wait no, yes perhaps, wait yes,no,yes, yes .anyways...Everyone knows how fallout is an alternate universe which branched off in the 60s right. Well what if This universe also branches off at the beginning of fallout 1. It has rampage mutations, independent towns, trading hubs, organized raiders, and basically everything that made fallout 1 great.So a new fallout is made and branched off sometime before 2161. Or like people said end it and create a new post-apocalyptic game.
     
  8. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign ⛧卐⛧ Staff Member Moderator [REDACTED]

    Apr 1, 2005
    Anyone want to translate?
     
  9. orville1

    orville1 First time out of the vault

    7
    Dec 13, 2011
    Fallout is an alternate universe of our universe. Well what if there was a new fallout series that branched off in a new universe just after the war.Thereby restoring all the old post-apocalyptic feel fallout 1 had. Or maybe just end it and create a new series that could fill the void fallout will leave.
     
  10. DevilTakeMe

    DevilTakeMe Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    463
    Sep 12, 2011
    Avellone's idea was just to nuke everything a second time. And that's really not conducive to game or story development.

    Of course, he's also married to the California area, rather than imagining what could have happened to other locations.
     
  11. orville1

    orville1 First time out of the vault

    7
    Dec 13, 2011
    The Reason why people survived the first time was because thousands of people are in vaults. But now there is very few (if any) that are still operational. So another nuclear war would kill off humanity.
     
  12. orville1

    orville1 First time out of the vault

    7
    Dec 13, 2011
    The Reason why people survived the first time was because thousands of people are in vaults. But now there is very few (if any) that are still operational. So another nuclear war would kill off humanity
     
  13. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    Not really.
    Only a small percent of USA population had actually lived in the Vaults. Not to mention that Vaults were actually experiments, and majority of those were a failure, often deliberately. And that's USA only, we don't know if other countries had similar projects.
    Greater percentage of people survived on the surface, by hiding in basements, standard nuclear shelters, bunkers and other places where they were relatively safe from the blast and radiation. Later they'd move out, seeking for other shelters, where they could find food, fresh water and be able to procreate.
    All this was evident and explained in Fallout, and here and there in later games.

    As for another nuclear war, it is just a concept and nothing more.
    A 'reboot' of sort, with another cataclysm may occur, be it nuclear war or something else, but even that wouldn't destroy humanity as a whole.
     
  14. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    I myself had this idea that 'uncontrolled' Caesar's Legion (one in which Caesar and Lanius were killed) wreaked havoc across Arizona and New Mexico as weaker leaders attempted to assume control.

    Lots of the rebuilding that had been done since the Great War was destroyed by the Legion as they went around looting, plundering and murdering with only a few regional powers being able to resist them.

    The Legion was weakened in the end but not before they dragged most of their former territory and adjoining regions back to the level it was just after the War.
     
  15. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign ⛧卐⛧ Staff Member Moderator [REDACTED]

    Apr 1, 2005

    I would prefer a new faction in a sequel, but this sounds interesting. I would rather have Legion than Enclave.
     
  16. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    Legion can be exploited in many ways.
    I'd like to see them more, though as a better developed faction, not just a standard villain faction as in NV.
    Though not something that falls far from it, I don't want it to be contradictory.
     
  17. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    Oh its not as if I want to take the Legion to such a goal again that they would be the main antagonists again in Fallout 4.
    Rather I came up with this to explain what they had been doing since Fallout New Vegas and why the world beyond the Colorado is such a ruined place again. (Legion pillaging and burning almost everything that was rebuilt since the Great War)

    At some point they basically headed East were they ran into powerful city states in former Texas that managed to resist them and drive them back, forcing the Legion to head Southwards as the NCR 'behind' them started to move into Arizona, Utah, New Mexico and Colorado, pushing the Legion out.

    Eventually the NCR also started sending expeditions past the no man's lands into Texas where they 'discovered' the city states that managed to repel the Legion which was quite a surprise for the people back West.
    Suddenly they are confronted by pockets of civilization that are nearly as well organized and industrialized as the NCR, surpassing them even in some fields.

    For the big city states this was a surprise as well, first the Legion with their slave culture, and now a major power that nearly controls two states and is expanding into four other ones that also has its foundations in the Pre War world.
    Save to say this troubles the leaders of these settlements as they themselves have never really expanded outside some additional outposts, let alone every tried to unite Texas under one banner, and they are now wonder what to do next?

    Eventually allowing the NCR to absorb them?
    Or find some common ground amongst each other and stick together to repel NCR expansion and assimilation?

    While this all would take place, some mystery faction (not the Enclave) would be moving in the shadows, working on its own agenda that could eventually alter the balance of power in the Midwest and perhaps even on the North American continent.

    (sorry to be so mysterious but I really worked hard on this idea and I don't want anyone else to run off with it. All I can say it does not involve yet another major army)
     
  18. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    That's a brilliant concept, Dutch Ghost.
    I just had to say that.
     
  19. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    Thank you, it is appreciated.

    Like many here I am also sick of armies popping up everywhere (or being recycled), I wanted to do something that did not involve an army or armies clashing as its getting tiresome.

    There would be of course armed groups and militias the player could work with or fight against but I did not want a possible storyline to revolve around their plans to take over the wasteland.

    I could not leave out the possible use of a super weapon but it would serve as a plot device rather than the focus of a story.

    As for the Enclave, well the player could run into their remains, power armor, equipment, and such, but outside the stories of the NCR and other people that came from the West the Enclave is pretty much dead and forgotten.
    They play no active role anymore.

    Some thanks go to Hassknecht for listening to me and giving me advice and suggestions.
     
  20. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign ⛧卐⛧ Staff Member Moderator [REDACTED]

    Apr 1, 2005
    I agree. They seem to focus on making one enemy army, instead of multiple factions with shades-of-grey. The Legion deserves more attention in one of the sequels. I don't want to see them around(like the Enclave)four games from now though.

    You always have modding as a possibility Dutch.