AR's or FN FAL's?

[Muff]

Don't know about the Ka-Bar dude but i know quite a few people in the British army buy one as a private purchase.

As for ww2 battle rifles Enfield an Mauser where commonly considered the best battle rifle by quite a few army's but some say it was the Russian Mosen-Nagant (don't know if i spelled it right) and others say the M1 garand.

I say there wasn't much between the Enfield an the mouser an If I had to chose it would be the Enfield.

 

[SuAside]

Ah so the topic has been moved back to WW2. Il defenetly ask what was the best rifle in those ages.

Mosin-Nagant (russian/belgian design )
Mauser 98K (reliable, accurate & to influence later weapon designs)
m1917 Enfield (for it's relation to the later Rem 700)
SMLE Lee-Enfield

it's pretty much impossible to say which is best, since not all were made for the same purpose.

 

[Muff]

One weapon I left out from WW2 is the MP44 the world first assault rifle, Before the west got its hands on a AK47 they thought it was a Russian Copy of a MP44,

MP44

AK47

The MP44 had some odd attachments available such as a bent barrel extension to allow it to fire round corners an a Periscope sight attachment I doubt either was used much an where most likely abandoned by troops in favour of more food or ammunition.

I would love to try out a MP44 but they are so rare to find an you cant own a working one in the UK

 

[SuAside]

the AK47 is far from being a copy. it might look similar yes, but it surely isn't.

 

[Muff]

That's what I said the west thought That the AK47 was a Russian MP44 only when the got there hands on one did they realise that it is mechanically different.

Just been reading about how in the Khyber Pass region of Afghanistan the they are famous for making direct copy's of Firearms some are nearly Factory produced quality while others would be dangerous to fire, I think under some circumstances in a PA world skilled people could reproduce copy's of the more basic pre-war firearms. The hard part would be the ammunition I guess.

 

[iii]

I would go for the FN Fal.

I would argue that the combat conditions in a post apoc world would be quite different... Really, I wouldn't act like a bad mofo stormtrooper and engage the enemy with bursts out of a 5.56mm weapon. Better option is to behave like a sniper (or hunter) - find a good position and take advantage of the higher range and stopping power of the Fal. Besides ammo is scarce and the wastelands are full of dirt. Therefore I want my weapon to be reliable.

Anyway if I had another choice I would take the ak47 (or AKM) since its reliability is just perfect for a post apoc scenario.

Anyway whats that all about the SCAR programm? Is it any good?

 

[Muff]

British army policy is and has always been & will always be single aimed shot's (with the added benefit that you get extra pay for the more accurate you are) the only time you burst or full auto is in FUBA or FISH for rifles or you are supposed to limit yourself to 4 round bursts with the GPMG. and i think this is the best policy in fallout and real life.

One thing I have been looking into is the NBC (the US calls it WMD) regulations about what would would happen to the British army if a nuclear war happened would there Combat and defence role would be I think I would have to make a new thread for this subject but lets just say it's VERY interesting while at the same time being shocking .

 

[Magus Zeal]

i don't care much about 'penetration of ballistic gelatine' or 'energy transfer'. while it packs less 'punch' in those stats, when squared away against real life bodyarmor (instead of gelatine & 'power' tests), the P90 offers better penetration of said armor. and on top of that, stops after penetrating the first target. dont ask me how the bullet knows the difference between a thicker plate of armor or a 'meatbag', the bullet is unlikely to exit the first target and cause colatteral damage, unlike the MP7's ammo. i might also want to point out that terminal ballistics of the P90 are better than the MP7 (which is critisized for it).
in other words: yes, terminal penetration of soft tissue is less, but it is intended that way, smartypantz.

Ok, do you have some sort of proof of better penetration? I provided proof, which comes from HKPro.com, and right now you're just giving opinion, which frankly, seems to come from observations of video games. Also please note that those tests are taken against gelatin, which has just about the same consistency as human flesh. They're also given under titanium and kevlar, the consistency of some body armors.

the reload of a P90 is easy as pie, just another aproach, but no worse. the higher capacity is more important than the split second you loose reloading it.

Sure, 10 round difference. Next you're going to be telling me that a P90 is superior to all 30-round rifles since it goes longer without reloading. Or that Beta-C drum magazines, while problematic, are better since they hold 3x as much ammo.

P90 has indeed much better accuracy, how could it not? check the barrellengths. effective range of the P90 is also better.

Effective range of both weapons is 200m. No more, no less. Barrel length can be irrelevant in regards to accuracy as well. Superior rifling and stabilized ammunition can provide better accuracy than a meter-long barrel.

 

[EvgeniBuzov]

Well AK-47 and MP-44 are quite similar I think, but there are some differences. Both guns are kick ass though.

BTW, SuAside, what was Mosin's main role in WW2? You said that each rifle had it's own purpose.

 

[iii]

Well AK-47 and MP-44 are quite similar I think, but there are some differences. Both guns are kick ass though.

BTW, SuAside, what was Mosin's main role in WW2? You said that each rifle had it's own purpose.

The only things that are quite familiar are the looks of those 2 guns... the mechanics are what really separates them.

Anyway the MP44 wasn't that good... well, who cares Call of Duty portrays this gun to be good, so be it!

 

[SuAside]

Anyway whats that all about the SCAR programm? Is it any good?

it's a rifle designed for US SOCOM (special forces). it is has different versions and different calibers. most common are SCAR-L in 5.56mm NATO and SCAR-H in 7.62mm NATO. there are CQB versions, sniper versions, 7.62x39 (Russian) battle pickup, etc. all parts are 90% interchangeable between versions. it's designed for absolute reliability in SOCOM commissions.

if you do some research, don't get turned off by the color of the samples. it is often colored in the basecolor that is most used and easiest to repaint to SOCOM wishes.

Ok, do you have some sort of proof of better penetration? I provided proof, which comes from HKPro.com, and right now you're just giving opinion, which frankly, seems to come from observations of video games.

how nice of you to call me an internet gamer gunnut wannabe.

actually, most of my info comes from 3 people:
1) the head of the Flemish Krav Maga Federation (of which I'm member). he happens to be a belgian paracommando that has extensive training with the P90 and has toyed with the HK PDW as well.
2) a belgian army captain in the testing team for the board of weapons acquisition for the belgian army.
3) a retired paracommando ("Adjudant-chef", i guess that's sergeant-major?), that is still member of a military only shooting club which is allowed to use military shootingranges and on occasion get to take a few 'new' trinkets for a testrun.

Also please note that those tests are taken against gelatin, which has just about the same consistency as human flesh. They're also given under titanium and kevlar, the consistency of some body armors.

i know full well how ballistic gelatin behaves...
you are talking about pure armor or pure gelatin.

i'm talking armor + gelatin, without relation to penetration length or pure power (your Joules). that would be stupid anyway, since the P90's ammo is specifically designed NOT to overpenetrate and stop after the first 'soft' target.

Sure, 10 round difference. Next you're going to be telling me that a P90 is superior to all 30-round rifles since it goes longer without reloading. Or that Beta-C drum magazines, while problematic, are better since they hold 3x as much ammo.

comparing rifles with SMG/PDW's? will you stop being an asshat? you know full well you're raping my words, so i'm not even going to explain this...

i'll only add that see-through mags on top of a weapon can be very handy, when compared to normal bottomfeed black mags.

Effective range of both weapons is 200m. No more, no less. Barrel length can be irrelevant in regards to accuracy as well. Superior rifling and stabilized ammunition can provide better accuracy than a meter-long barrel.

yeah, according to wikipedia or world.guns.ru, right? dude, don't make me laugh, you critic my sources, but yours don't seem very reliable at all...
wikipedia is out to date as fuck when it comes to weapons and guns.ru is a semi-decent site but his sources are mostly thirdhand and just as out of date as the wiki.

also, when talking about same generation weapons with almost the same role, it is likely barrellength does factor into the equation.

BTW, SuAside, what was Mosin's main role in WW2? You said that each rifle had it's own purpose.

in WW2? in the Mosin's case: being cheap, tested/reliable and easy to handle for the average farmerboy.
don't forget the weapon's design was started in 1880s and completed in 1891. later design upgrades were pretty minor.

yet it is worthwhile to note, one of the finnish national heroes was a farmer with no military training whatsoever, simply picked up a Mosin-Nagant and became one of the most lethal snipers of his era. (over 500 confirmed kills i believe & a shitload of unconfirmed)

 

[iii]

Anyway whats that all about the SCAR programm? Is it any good?

it's a rifle designed for US SOCOM (special forces). it is has different versions and different calibers. most common are SCAR-L in 5.56mm NATO and SCAR-H in 7.62mm NATO. there are CQB versions, sniper versions, 7.62x39 (Russian) battle pickup, etc. all parts are 90% interchangeable between versions. it's designed for absolute reliability in SOCOM commissions.

Well, this sounds like that Scar H would be my weapon of choice in a world like Fallout.

Edit: Yeap, your right!

Actually I hated it when they incuded all the real life weapons in FO2.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

 

[SuAside]

in a postapoc world perhaps, but not fallout. doesnt fit at all.

 

[Magus Zeal]

actually, most of my info comes from 3 people:
1) the head of the Flemish Krav Maga Federation (of which I'm member). he happens to be a belgian paracommando that has extensive training with the P90 and has toyed with the HK PDW as well.
2) a belgian army captain in the testing team for the board of weapons acquisition for the belgian army.
3) a retired paracommando ("Adjudant-chef", i guess that's sergeant-major?), that is still member of a military only shooting club which is allowed to use military shootingranges and on occasion get to take a few 'new' trinkets for a testrun.

Source #1 can be biased. Source #1 is also the head of a close combat and self defense system. Not really relevant to the subject at hand, which I guess is supposed to impress myself or you. Source #2 also contains the capability for bias (since buying weapons made in the country of purchase is much cheaper), as does #3. The key linking factor here is they're all Belgian -- and guess who makes the P90? Why, Belgian Herstal Fabrique-Nationale. Three people, with opinions, versus hard facts -- which, by the way, are compared using gelatin AND armor, please re-read that to clear up any clarity issues.

comparing rifles with SMG/PDW's? will you stop being an asshat? you know full well you're raping my words, so i'm not even going to explain this...

Of course I was being facetious. You were practically beating me over the head with the fact that since the P90 has 10 rounds more in it's magazine it must be incredibly superior. So therefore higher-end magazines must be "wtfpwners".

yeah, according to wikipedia or world.guns.ru, right? dude, don't make me laugh, you critic my sources, but yours don't seem very reliable at all...

I don't see your sources being very reliable either. I've got two sources that agree, whereas you have three potentially biased sources. Numbers, not opinions. Opinions are largely flawed, no matter who they come from. Numbers can be biased, yes, but when several sources come together with roughly the same statistics, that shows something, doesn't it?

 

[SuAside]

Source #1 can be biased. Source #1 is also the head of a close combat and self defense system. Not really relevant to the subject at hand, which I guess is supposed to impress myself or you. Source #2 also contains the capability for bias (since buying weapons made in the country of purchase is much cheaper), as does #3. The key linking factor here is they're all Belgian -- and guess who makes the P90? Why, Belgian Herstal Fabrique-Nationale.

i mentioned Krav Maga because it is how i know him... sjeezes. ofcourse a hand to hand combat technique isn't relevant. what fucking drugs are you on?

as for being biased... i dont see the point... not during casual conversations amongst gunnuts.

Three people, with opinions, versus hard facts -- which, by the way, are compared using gelatin AND armor, please re-read that to clear up any clarity issues.

how about you take your own advice & try to reread what i've been saying all along.

Of course I was being facetious. You were practically beating me over the head with the fact that since the P90 has 10 rounds more in it's magazine it must be incredibly superior. So therefore higher-end magazines must be "wtfpwners".

will you stop being a moron?

is said that the 0.3 seconds longer it takes to reload a P90 is offset by the fact it has 10 more bullets than it's HK counterpart...

I don't see your sources being very reliable either. I've got two sources that agree, whereas you have three potentially biased sources. Numbers, not opinions. Opinions are largely flawed, no matter who they come from. Numbers can be biased, yes, but when several sources come together with roughly the same statistics, that shows something, doesn't it?

yeah, because HKpro would NEVER EVER be biased...

ever thought about the fact there your 'several sources' that report the same statistics would probably be because they have the same source?

anyway, you're talking about statistics, i'm talking about real fieldtests. excuse me for not being convinced at all...

 

[Muff]

Ok just thought you might like to see the British SLR with a SUIT attached which is the for runner of the SUSAT

I also found this:-

DSA-58OSW - a select-fire "sawed off" FAL clone made by DS Arms (USA) for police use

I don't know how accurate that information was because i have seen other weapons that look quite smiler to this claiming to be M14, AR18, and various AK's. But it still looks cool.

Oh and on thing on my wish list is a M1 carbine I like the way it looks, what's your opinion?

 

[EvgeniBuzov]

Defently pretty cool muff. I had a thing for WW2 weapons a year ago too. Thompsons especially or M1 Garands.

The one with the wooden butt looks a bit coolder IMO, but since Paratroopers needed everything in compact they used the second variant.

 

[SuAside]

if you wanna go WW2, take a Mosin-Nagant (cheap as dirt & if you look around a bit you can get a very accurate one. a bitch on the shoulder though, but it'll turn you into a man ), a Mauser 98 or a M1 Garand (not M1 carb)


(if you really want an M1 carb, stay THE FUCK away from Erma replicas)

 

[Muff]

I have said in a previous post I have a HUGE thing for WW2 weapon's, sadly I can't own most of the really cool weapons like the M1 carbine due to really bad firearms law's, in the UK bolt actions are the only full bores you can own and the only semi automatic weapons you can own are in .22 cal this also means no handguns.

EvgeniBuzov I like the paratrooper model just looks a hell of a lot better than the wooden stock on the standard one.

SuAside what have you heard about the Erma M1's? Erma has always been recommended to me as a good brand, Oh and you are spot on about the Mosin-Nagant they are well built and damm cheap, Only problem with them is the only gun shop in easy distance of my house has to order in 7.62R rounds just for me and it costs a arm and a leg.

EDIT: This is also why I got rid of my Mosin-Nagant over a year ago the cost was to high for me sadly if I could find a Mosin in any other cal than 7.62R I would defiantly get one.

 

[SuAside]

Erma's look good, but the internals are cheap crap (compared to the real deal anyway). for example, they use pretty weak alloys, which means the removing and locking of the magazine starts to eat away at your rifle after a while...

not to mention it's damn near impossible to find replacement parts for it.