Bethesda planning to revisit Skyrim paid mods after Fallout 4's launch.

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by AgentBJ09, Jul 19, 2015.

  1. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Because Bethesda's games always require a shit ton of mods to be playable so they are basically charging extra for OTHER PEOPLE'S WORK just so people can actually have a decent game in addition to paying 60 dollars to even being able to mod it in the first place? Bethesda also has very little involvement in mod development, most of those people do that out of their free time, with no budget and just for passion, so for Bethesda to then claim they are entitled to receive money for that is preposterous. Also they offer no support to modders at all, a lot of them have to inject new scripts, patch the game so it actually uses more than 2 gb of ram and develop mod organizer tools, all of those things are ESSENTIAL to get a modded Beth Fallout game running, and they aren't found in the Steam Workshop.

    With all that lack of any real involvement, or even basic support they are still asking for 70% of the profits of the work of others. Tell me how is that even a good thing? If they actually wanted to help modders have a legal way to get money for their work maybe they could start by not treatening with legal action to those that try to set up donation campaigns? Nexus offers a more direct way for people to support modders through the Donate button while ALSO offering all the necessary applications and support for free.
     
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  2. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Abalutza oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    This is basically my point. I've seen numerous times were Bethesda has stopped simple things like that from being done. I think it should be easier to donate to modders if you desire to. I'm sure most people still wouldn't but it would be something. Mods like Project Brazil are good for portfolios at least as Snap mentioned.
     
  3. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    476
    Nov 2, 2013
    @Walpknut, I shall assume that you didn't read or understand my previous post. You certainly failed to answer my question (which was intentionally phrased in general terms) and don't seem to grasp on how IP work.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  4. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Your argument is comparing merchandise specifically paid for it's manufacturing by the company to amateur products made without their support. Which is a completely nonsensical comparison. Bethesda has never had any involvement in production of mods other than releasing a basic tool kit modders have to tweak a lot to get the better mods we have right now. Bethesda pays them nothing, hell they even have to pay Bethesda the 60 dollars to even being able to mod at all. So why does bethesda have any right to ask for EXTRA money out of the work of people that did it for free while also paying them to even have the oportunity to do the work in the first place? Does Unreal Engine get 70% of the profits off every batman Arkham Game? Does Microsoft get 70% off the money Valve makes because they provided the basic platform?
     
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  5. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    476
    Nov 2, 2013
    I repeat, you don't understand how it works.
     
  6. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    No, you are the one who doesn't seem to understand how it works at all if you think official t-shirts and fanmade projects are the same thing. Or that their 70% of the sell policy is even remotely sensible or reasonable.

    This would be akin to charging 70% on fan art commisions and convention art alley products like a douchebag.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
  7. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    476
    Nov 2, 2013
    *sighs* You probably heard of George R. R. Martin who wrote the 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series, or at least of the popular HBO tv-show 'Game of Thrones' that is based on his work. FYI his work spun a host of other products from rpg\board\card\video games to art\map collections and T-shirt, for all of which he receives royalties. This is no to say that he is (or should be) actually involved in their production, his level of involvement varies with each licence, so while he insisted on a considerable input on HBOs game of thrones, he has none to zero real input on much of the rest.

    Ignoring your idea about involvement. In modding, if you trying to make profit from a mod, soon you'll receive a formal legal notice, regardless of the game. As for Bethesda modding platform, an extra for its customers, which rather extensive compared to most, i'll bet my ass off that it comes with the standard licences agreement that yet again reinforce the above.

    As for what is fair, going by my rule of thumb, having an option to earn something is better then having no option. I am not sure what rate is fair, but quick google suggest that range of 30-70% is rather common in the industry. Also it should be noted that Beth\Steam involvement include hosting, updating and bandwidth.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
  8. AgentBJ09

    AgentBJ09 A Smooth-Skin

    697
    Jul 9, 2015
    I think it's worth noting however that nowhere outside of Steam can you activate Skyrim, or Fallout 4. The games live in a closed system that forces use of one platform, no matter where you buy them; a 40/35/25% split is better than the publishing house split for authors, which is usually 50/30/20, but Bethesda already takes 70% of each new game sold via Steam.

    As such, I have to agree with TB's warning about the potential of anti-trust when it comes to Steam, because of the dominance of the platform and the existence of paid mods for games that can't be claimed anywhere else.
     
  9. Daemon Spawn

    Daemon Spawn Old Warrior of the Wastes

    354
    May 15, 2003
    The party that owns the intellectual property is free to do what they wish with it.

    The consumers are also free to speak their minds and speak out against it, or form boycotting campaigns, to modify it, or even buy the product in order to throw it on a fire in protest.

    I expect that we will see protests similar to what happened last time.
     
  10. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Uh...

    Pray tell, HOW do they "allow" them to be compensated in ways that the current system doesn't? You're completely misusing the word "allow", here. They aren't trying to "allow" ANYTHING. They're trying to FORCE a thing. They're not forcing us to be considerate and pay modders because they deserve the payment. You're naive if you think that's what's going on. They're trying to force us to pay them more money, based on an absurd precedent that has been shot down several times in prior posts.
     
  11. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    476
    Nov 2, 2013
    I am afraid I don't follow, can you further explain your point. Couple of notes:

    1. Yes Fallout 4 and mods for it, will be available on Steam\PS3\Xbox, are you arguing against their choice of platform in general, or something specific to this ?
    2. Yes the IP holder takes Royalties for each product i.e. Beth takes for each FO4, for each DLC for FO4 and once available for each horse armor DLC/mod sold for FO4..
    3. we still don't know what terms Beth will be able to negotiate. Steams DOTA2 give modders only 25%, while Sonys player studio gives 40%.
    4. I'll note once again, that the added option for modders to get paid, doesn't effect those who want to make free mods. And If you been around NMA, you probably seen at least couple of guys who looked to get paid (donation quotas :rolleye: ), the acid response they got is the reason why I doubt that paid mods will be very successful.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
  12. AskWazzup

    AskWazzup Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2008
    Fred2 of somwhere, i hereby charge thee with the sinning against all gamerkind... For thy heresy, thy account shalt burn at the mod banfire. Repent your sins now heretic, until it's too late!!
     
  13. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    476
    Nov 2, 2013
    Commie bastard, are you saying that I am on the wrong side of this cold war?!
     
  14. Makenshi

    Makenshi Ahoy, ye salty dogs!

    Jul 28, 2006
    Man you can't go passing judgement without a heresy stamp! Here, use this:

     
  15. Lexx

    Lexx Background Radiant
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Wasn't it so that with the introduction of paid-mods for Skyrim, even for a normal non-paid release you still had to give Steam your bank account data?
     
  16. AgentBJ09

    AgentBJ09 A Smooth-Skin

    697
    Jul 9, 2015
    Anti-Trust is a huge concern to me; Bethesda, among many others, has a tendency of taking their games away from other sites retroactively and forcing use of one platform, even if the service does nothing for the game beyond activating it. That same platform is the only one where paid mods can be sold.

    #1 - As of now, we only know of the Skyrim mods coming back as paid. The Fallout 4 mods, where possible, are only useable on the XBOX One and PC, as per the E3 showing. (I don't trust Howard's word that mods in F4 will never be sellable.)

    #2 - Since I used to work for Gamestop, I found out how new game sale numbers break down, and publishers always get at least 70% of a new game sale. And like I said, this was part of why I so highly doubted that the 40/35/25 split was designed to support modders versus put more money, post-sale, in Bethesda pocket.

    #3 - For DOTA, only Valve has their name on the game, and it's a multiplayer game where everything you can buy is cosmetic/unnecessary to own. Skyrim, on the other hand? SkyUI is essential to have for so many mods, plus it makes the game function better with a mouse and keyboard, something Bethesda did not take the time to implement on PC and still has yet to. And I mentioned this before: No buyer of any game should spend a cent on a fix/optimization mod for a game. Doing so has many implications, even if the practice doesn't spread beyond Bethesda's games.

    #4 - It won't be successful for Bethesda's games because of the way they make their games, their history of releases, and how so many mods daisy-chain off each other. (SKSE - SkyUI - Enhanced Economy, or Unofficial Skyrim Patches - (Place mod here).) Plus, if Bethesda is going to take money from modders who optimize their games, I would hope some, if not all, gamers would call BS on them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
  17. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    476
    Nov 2, 2013
    I understand that you are unhappy with majority of developers choosing steam as their sole digital distributor, but it not really the topic. Also steam support for mods shows that they offers something more than just activating games.

    I thought it went without saying that Bethesda want to make a buck (who isn't), nevertheless they give modders a legal option to earn money. So for example modders for Sony games made 57 million dollars from Player Workshop, which is 57 million dollars more then modders made from making mods for fallout... so even if you consider this to be a bad option, having any option is better than having non. Also while I doubt that it will effect the current free modding community, as you will always have the "open code" community effort, this might attract professional modellers\coders\writers who otherwise would have never wasted their time on it.

    As for what is fair. To my knowledge, 10% is a common royalty fee, this number grows considerably if there are additional production costs. Considering that Mods\modders will be using Beth Engine\Dev tools\assets and steam workshop hosting\content management\bandwidth which is integrated into one easy to use platform - than 70% isn't a big stretch.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2015
  18. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Again, no. They're not "giving" ANY method for modders to monetize their efforts. They're TAKING AWAY the freedom to mod unless you do so under their sanctioning. Policies can't get implemented without a very rigid structure being applied as their foundation, and just like all their legal shafting of anyone and everyone who TRIED to make something beautiful using the Fallout name, this is another grab at controlling everything under the sun. This time, Skyrim mods. I'm not even a fan of Skyrim, and by extension I don't give a shit about ANY of its mods. But that doesn't matter. This policy will make them OWN any attempts to mod their game. But they DON'T own these things! They aren't conscripting programmers. They aren't outsourcing animators. They aren't financing freelancers. They're roping the mods under one blanket that they control, and then "generously" paying them EXTREMELY unfair ratios, which they cannot negotiate, because they all fall under this blanket policy.

    Again, knock it off with this "allowing ways for modders to make a buck" bullshit argument. It's just NOT true! Modders ARE allowed to make a buck right now. The golden rule of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" still applies.
     
  19. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    476
    Nov 2, 2013
    They can't take away something you never had. And yes, they are giving a legal means for modders to make a profit. Which doesn't impact those who wish to continue to make free mods, who keep getting better tools\support.

    Modders are allowed to make modifications, within limits e.g. if you try to include game files withing your mod (as a standalone) or try to make money out of it, soon you'll get a legal notice, and claiming status que will be a bullshit legal defense. It is why Beth stopped donations campaigns, which are basically an attempt to work around the you not allowed to make profit. If it were true then I could make a fallout 3 "mod" for fallout 2 using donation goals (sounds familiar? ..kickstarter) ignoring the IP holder..

    Just because so far Beth hasn't thought (or had streamlined technical means) to monetize mods, doesn't mean that modders were allowed to make money excluding the IP holder. And saying it AGAIN! doesn't make it so.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  20. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I just can't see this working well in the long run. Mods have been free content for such a long time, and I would assume that many people will continue to offer awesome free content for games - at least on the PC, that I just can picture the majority of modd users suddenly feeling well with paying for content that was previously free to download. And without any safety behind it. We all understand the fact that people want to be compensated for their hard work. But on the other side, mods are just that. Content made for fun by people that love to change things. The fact that it's free means that a large number of people can enjoy the work. Like if I demand from people money to look at my paintings.