Bethesda tires of spending money to support pirates

[UncannyGarlic]

When I see prices of games and music I just shake my head. Hey, but I can legally steal from musicans by buying used music CDs for 25 PGP.

Indeed. Music actually bothers me more than games, especially music that you have to import (paid $25-30 plus $10 shipping and handling for a gift for a friend), it's just not affordable at that price.

 

[Sorrow]

When I see prices of games and music I just shake my head. Hey, but I can legally steal from musicans by buying used music CDs for 25 PGP.

Indeed. Music actually bothers me more than games, especially music that you have to import (paid $25-30 plus $10 shipping and handling for a gift for a friend), it's just not affordable at that price.

Exactly. I thought yesterday that it would be great to buy an easily reproductible plastic disc with music on it - I entered an online store. I looked at the prices - 57 PGP for a disc. Of course I didn't buy it.
Some Polish bands like Behemoth and Vader understand this and sell their disks for 27-30 PGP - that's why I buy every new Behemoth's album.
Some bigger bands started to understand it too - for example Metallica's new album was sold for 40 PGP - 15-20 PGP cheaper than most of other albums. It's still a bit too much, but it's a step in the right direction.

Well put, Mord_Sith.

The shades of gray are the most important, as the stark contrasts are often just belligerent and misrepresentative minorities.

Yeah. Actually, in my country almost everyone is a "pirate", except for a loud mouthed fanatical minority (I'm not pirating anything, of course. I just think it should be legalized). And similarly, the "why should I buy it if I can have it for free." are another another end of the spectrum. These are just the two extreme black areas in the world of gray that for some weird reason dominate the public opinion and have the most influence on the ruling oligarchy.

And the thing that I'm most proud of - I love stealing books - i.e. read them without paying their authors - I have borrowed 3000 PGP worth of novels and scientific books from libraries. I just love the thrill of hunting books in the library and the sweet, sweet knowledge that I'm depriving the writers of their bread and butter

You sick bastard.

Heh .
I'm doing to mainly to demonstrate that "stealing" from authors or sharing is an integral part of the western civilization - I really enjoy such irony . On the other hand I know some people who actually buy books they have borrowed and really enjoyed. Personally, I prefer buying music, games and comics. I rarely buy a book, even if it's not available in libraries.

 

[Oakraven]

MMO's make money don't they? They also get pirated and they still make fat loot.

So... Bethsoft.. Go get a tissue and make a MMO.

do you honestly think forceing all game development into the MMOCrapfest where they feel compled to churn out "content" untill the game starts to choke on it is honestly a good Idea? Its bad enough that the only Fallout we have a hope of seeing thats not from Tod and crew is now defacto FORCED to be an MMO.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

So... Bethsoft.. Go get a tissue and make a MMO.

do you honestly think forceing all game development into the MMOCrapfest where they feel compled to churn out "content" untill the game starts to choke on it is honestly a good Idea? Its bad enough that the only Fallout we have a hope of seeing thats not from Tod and crew is now defacto FORCED to be an MMO.[/quote]
To be fair, Oblivion would have been much more interesting as a MMO. Hell, it already had most of what it needed, just take away being able to complete the main quest line and make it multiplayer.

 

[Tycn]

The material advantages of piracy are obvious and I'm not going to argue them. I don't pirate out of principle; that and I'm well off enough to afford buying a few games.

Sure, you can try to justify piracy by saying that games nowadays are devoid of good content. But no matter what happens, piracy will still exist. If games were perfect, that would be all the more reason for pirates to download them. People aren't going to pay for things that they can get for free.

The solution? I don't think there is any. People have been ripping each other off since the stone age and there's nothing we can do about it. Well, nothing we can do about it that doesn't end up punishing innocent consumers.

 

[scypior]

Some Polish bands like Behemoth and Vader understand this and sell their disks for 27-30 PGP - that's why I buy every new Behemoth's album.

Hey, and what about 'Foreign music - polish price' (or whatever this action is called)? Now that's a hypocricy. They are selling 'polish versions' of some albums in an nice affordable price - ~30PGP. But guess what? There is no inbook inside - only cover. It's like they say: 'don't pirate music - in that way you are stealing from artists', but on the other hand they are willing to lower the price, but only if they remove the booklet (printing of which should have nothing to do with the incomes of the artists...)

 

[aenemic]

Some Polish bands like Behemoth and Vader understand this and sell their disks for 27-30 PGP - that's why I buy every new Behemoth's album.

Hey, and what about 'Foreign music - polish price' (or whatever this action is called)? Now that's a hypocricy. They are selling 'polish versions' of some albums in an nice affordable price - ~30PGP. But guess what? There is no inbook inside - only cover. It's like they say: 'don't pirate music - in that way you are stealing from artists', but on the other hand they are willing to lower the price, but only if they remove the booklet (printing of which should have nothing to do with the incomes of the artists...)

still, the main reason I buy albums is for the extra artwork/booklet. that's what makes the huge difference between buying a new cd from your favorite band and simply downloading it.

personally I don't think the same rules should apply for music and games. being a musician myself, I wouldn't mind if all music was free. what bands mainly get money from are live shows, not cd sales. I'd love to see free music and more live shows that cover the artist's expenses instead.

games could never work that way since there is only one way to experience them. and I'm perfectly fine with paying for a game I think is worth buying. unfortunately there aren't many such games these days.

 

[Ausir]

http://xkcd.com/488/

 

[Public]

It is kind of moronic that people with cracked copies of the game will go to the devs website and ask for support.... It leads to unfortunate things like having to pay for support.

Yeah, I've seen that one.

"Yes...hello. I've downloaded your game from torrent, and was very excited that I finally got it, but it doesn't work! Why is that? You make a game which doesn't work??!!

I want a re-fund of my wasted time and space on my HDD, that I used to download this game NOW!"

 

[Sander]

People, this is threading dangerously thin to warez talk.

Remember, if you pirated a game *we don't want to know*.

 

[Joervol]

The thing is, i would totally agree with the talk about how piracy sucks (i am not supporting it, just arguing) IF you could tell if you wanted to buy it or not before you actually buy it.

When i go to an expensive restaurant, i know that i will pay 500% more cash than the food is actually worth. BUT i also know that they will cook it EXACTLY as i want it. If they don't, I'll keep telling them to recook it until they get it done right.

If fallout 3 hadn't been leaked and actually confirmed all the things we feared, how would i be sure that i didn't want to play it? And spend 60 euros on it? They promise everything, but deliver nothing. And i have no way of getting my money back, even if i erase the memory in my mind of me playing it!

It's like buying a goddamn ferrary only to see that it's engine it's that of a 2000$ worth used car and not being able to do anything about it. They want people to pay for the game they made. They want people to pay for their countless hours of making the game, of all the time they could have spent doing something else. I agree totally. They are worth it. They are worth their sweat, no argument here. But I also want to know where i spend my money! Give enough demos, show enough videos, anything then i'll agree to burn the pirates on the fire.

Take for example blizzard. Don't they want to make money? They do. But look on how they make starcraft 2, all the info they give, all the videos, they listen most of the times to feedback and but for a demo, I will probably know for sure if i want to buy it or not! Why shouldn't the same thing apply to FO3?

What i know is, that if for example i construct buildings for a living and get a contract to build a 10story building and I end up building only 2 out of the 10 stories and say to my customer: "hey **** off, you can still sleep in the first 2 floors" by law i would be forced to complete the building AND give compensation if the timeline wasn't held. Gaming industries demand to pay for their product without essentially knowing or at least ensuring that the description of the game is true! How is that fair or consistent with the rest of the world?

 

[jonnymstgt]

People, this is threading dangerously thin to warez talk.

Remember, if you pirated a game *we don't want to know*.

I agree with you 100%. I have seen comments of people saying they really dislike what has happened to Fallout so they will never buy the game. In the same breath they say, but still I will be playing it.

To me that is one of the most unfair statements you can possibly make. If you don't like it, if you don't accept what Bethesda has done to FO then don't buy it, don't support and make your point right there.

Unfortunately, there seems to be some people who want to make their point by saying, I hate what Bethesda has done to the game, I will not be supporting Bethesda but hey, I will be downloading a pirate copy to play.

I believe that is completely unfair and that is so contradictory to what anyone here believes. And the reason I feel this way is because in the future there will come a game that is really great, a game that deserves its accolades and it will not be this one. But in the future, such a game will be hijacked by pirates, its sales will be pathetic and you will have the same people out here who have no problem hijacking a game now trying to somehow make an excuse about why they had no problem hijacking another game but they do have a problem with it now.

You can't have it both ways. You can't wait for the ultimate game to then speak out and say, Pirating a game is bad.

You don't like the previews or leaked play? Don't play it.

It is what it is, but it is absurd that some of you say that you dislike it so much that you will play it but not pay for it. No one wins in that case.

 

[Ausir]

I agree with you 100%. I have seen comments of people saying they really dislike what has happened to Fallout so they will never buy the game. In the same breath they say, but still I will be playing it.

There are other ways of playing without buyin than piracy - e.g. renting or playing a friend's copy.

 

[aenemic]

People, this is threading dangerously thin to warez talk.

Remember, if you pirated a game *we don't want to know*.

I agree with you 100%. I have seen comments of people saying they really dislike what has happened to Fallout so they will never buy the game. In the same breath they say, but still I will be playing it.

I'm pretty sure you're mainly refering to my post in another thread where I said I cancelled my pre-order but I will still play the game. if you had bothered to also read my reply to your post there, you'd realize I never said I wouldn't buy it at all. my friend has an Xbox 360 and will probably get it, so I might just try his copy and then decide wether to buy it or not. all I said was I didn't want to pay 100 bucks for the CE based on what I've seen of the game recently. maybe the anticipation will get the best of me and I'll just go out and buy it on release day. unfortunately Beth will still get my money, but not nearly as much as was first intended.

 

[jonnymstgt]

The thing is, i would totally agree with the talk about how piracy sucks (i am not supporting it, just arguing) IF you could tell if you wanted to buy it or not before you actually buy it.

When i go to an expensive restaurant, i know that i will pay 500% more cash than the food is actually worth. BUT i also know that they will cook it EXACTLY as i want it. If they don't, I'll keep telling them to recook it until they get it done right.

If fallout 3 hadn't been leaked and actually confirmed all the things we feared, how would i be sure that i didn't want to play it? And spend 60 euros on it? They promise everything, but deliver nothing. And i have no way of getting my money back, even if i erase the memory in my mind of me playing it!

It's like buying a goddamn ferrary only to see that it's engine it's that of a 2000$ worth used car and not being able to do anything about it. They want people to pay for the game they made. They want people to pay for their countless hours of making the game, of all the time they could have spent doing something else. I agree totally. They are worth it. They are worth their sweat, no argument here. But I also want to know where i spend my money! Give enough demos, show enough videos, anything then i'll agree to burn the pirates on the fire.

Take for example blizzard. Don't they want to make money? They do. But look on how they make starcraft 2, all the info they give, all the videos, they listen most of the times to feedback and but for a demo, I will probably know for sure if i want to buy it or not! Why shouldn't the same thing apply to FO3?

What i know is, that if for example i construct buildings for a living and get a contract to build a 10story building and I end up building only 2 out of the 10 stories and say to my customer: "hey **** off, you can still sleep in the first 2 floors" by law i would be forced to complete the building AND give compensation if the timeline wasn't held. Gaming industries demand to pay for their product without essentially knowing or at least ensuring that the description of the game is true! How is that fair or consistent with the rest of the world?

If you don't like it don't buy it. But what does piracy have to do with the issue. Don't buy it, don't play it.

How can you possibly justify playing a game that you dont like and saying that you dislike the game so much that I will download it play it, hate it and then say, well I downloaded and hated this game so much as I played it that it deserves it.

Don't like what you have seen, then don't play it.

Don't like what you have seen but still you will pirate it, play it and then justify playing it by saying "I played it, I didn't pay for it but it's ok, because I hated it."

You should not do that.

Use the reviews and previews to make a decision in regards to spending your money on a game. You can't possibly make your decision on paying for a game based on PLAYING the game and then deciding you didn't like it. Your attitude will bankrupt the entire game industry if we all thought that way.

Think then act. If you think these people programming stuff for your enjoyment, whether it is a hit or miss, are doing this without risking their livelihoods. Then you are wrong. You must realize that for every turd put out there by a gaming company, there are those who have worked to bring you this turd, guess what they failed. But there are still those who try hard to bring you entertainment.

Even if they fail, there is a big difference between you stealing their work because somehow your expectations were not met and simply realizing that human programmers had something to offer.

So get off your high horse. The people offering you entertainment arent gods or infalluable. If you don't agree with what they offered, then fine, don't buy the product. If you believe that you can steal and not pay for the work they have done because you consider it so beneath you. Then go ahead and do that. It does not make it any better or does not make it any more right.

 

[Joervol]

If you don't like it don't buy it. But what does piracy have to do with the issue. Don't buy it, don't play it.

How can you possibly justify playing a game that you dont like and saying that you dislike the game so much that I will download it play it, hate it and then say, well I downloaded and hated this game so much as I played it that it deserves it.

Don't like what you have seen, then don't play it.

I didn't like it, i won't buy it, i won't download it and i won't play it. I did actually saythat i didn't support piracy in the beginning didn't i?

Don't like what you have seen but still you will pirate it, play it and then justify playing it by saying "I played it, I didn't pay for it but it's ok, because I hated it."

You should not do that.

Use the reviews and previews to make a decision in regards to spending your money on a game. You can't possibly make your decision on paying for a game based on PLAYING the game and then deciding you didn't like it. Your attitude will bankrupt the entire game industry if we all thought that way.

Think then act. If you think these people programming stuff for your enjoyment, whether it is a hit or miss, are doing this without risking their livelihoods. Then you are wrong. You must realize that for every turd put out there by a gaming company, there are those who have worked to bring you this turd, guess what they failed. But there are still those who try hard to bring you entertainment.

Even if they fail, there is a big difference between you stealing their work because somehow your expectations were not met and simply realizing that human programmers had something to offer.

So get off your high horse. The people offering you entertainment arent gods or infalluable. If you don't agree with what they offered, then fine, don't buy the product. If you believe that you can steal and not pay for the work they have done because you consider it so beneath you. Then go ahead and do that. It does not make it any better or does not make it any more right.

That wasn't my argument. My argument was that people who use piracy, most of the times they are not willing to "risk" their money while having virtual NO idea on what they will get. And some of them actually if they like it they go and buy it. That doesn't make it good or just, but they do have a point. The point is that ETHICS runs BOTH ways. I will give you 60 bucks for a product with has [product info here], risking that in the end it won't give me satisfaction. But you will provide me with enough ACCURATE info to make my mind on whether i want to risk it or not. In the examples i used in my earlier post, let's take the ferrary. I could buy it, then realize that after all, i wanted a different car. That won't make it any less of a ferrary, it will make it a bad call on MY part. In the restaurant, i may end up not enjoying the food, but as long as it isn't due to bad cooking, it was MY call.

I will probably buy starcraft 2, 100% legit for example. Like i said, I don't condone piracy. But it will be because i think that the info i have got until know justify the buying. I may end up not liking it, but it won't be due to the game itself, but due to my tastes. Why? because in my opinion i had enough info on it when i bought it!

Oh, and about the reviews you mentioned, with today's marketing from the companie's part, we all know that most of them are just hype without real value. The info should come directly from the gaming company and be 100% reliable and not be like "hey, this game is fantastic, buy it!!!!!"

 

[Wooz]

Use the reviews and previews to make a decision in regards to spending your money on a game.

Oh, yes. Because they always present the game in an objective way. Fat chance.

You can't possibly make your decision on paying for a game based on PLAYING the game and then deciding you didn't like it.

...

Are you really this dense? Why do you think demos and samples exist in the first place?

Your attitude will bankrupt the entire game industry if we all thought that way.

Blindly trusting bad reviews won't get the industry far, either.

 

[Tigranes]

jonny's just misunderstood joervol.

Honestly, I feel sorry for the individual Beth devs who are sitting there now looking at the idiots playing the leaked versions.. but as a whole, the consumer is better for it, because the reviews aren't doing their job and Bethesda has refused to release a demo.

You release a demo, you support your game before selling horse armour, you use DRM and methods that do not criminalise your legal consumers - then you can complain and get sympathy for piracy.

 

[Bernard Bumner]

Use the reviews and previews to make a decision in regards to spending your money on a game. You can't possibly make your decision on paying for a game based on PLAYING the game and then deciding you didn't like it. Your attitude will bankrupt the entire game industry if we all thought that way.

So, rather than playing the game to decide whether or not they enjoy the game, they should just trust reviews? They get to gamble money on a product that they haven't tried, and pay for the (at best, subjective) reviews, as well? Don't you think that buying disappointing games, games which don't run well on their machine, also informs the level of expenditure of gamers? Not only can money spent on one game not be spent on another worthier title, but it may also discourage further spending. Forcing people to buy expensive games is generally damaging.

People who just want to try before they buy aren't the ones harming the games industry, other than that their cash remains unspent on a game they didn't want. If the industry is reliant on selling unwanted games to remain viable, then it is a worse shape than I'd realised. The real problem is the people who have no intention of ever paying for a game.

As it is, Bethesda fails to offer any alternative to people who don't want to spend their cash without first previewing the game. Not everyone has access to rentals, to friends and family who are buying the game. Still, Bethesda insists that demos are too much trouble, too expensive. By taking that line, they aren't addressing at least one cause of piracy, albeit probably the least damaging.

Save your vitriol for the people who are simply thieves, not those people who just want to be able to make an informed choice. The music industry is adopting new marketing models, and this includes much greater distribution of free downloads and free-to-listen streaming content (even entire albums). This is because they have realised that the old model, whereby one tries to extract every last buck upfront and unheard is a good way of channelling people into seeking out pirated content.

The thieves will never stop and must be punished, but there are pragmatic routes to minimise casual piracy.

 

[aenemic]

where the hell do you rent pc games anyway?