Bethesda's Fallout 4: Continuity Breaker

[Yamu]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I get you as far as that first bit goes. As to the rest though:

I agree with you in that you need to leave yourself a measure of flexibility in an ongoing saga, SMBC, but once something significant is down in the world, especially if it's a shared world that you profess to love and respect, suddenly and repeatedly altering the tone, changing established particulars, shifting core pillars, and "revealing" things that, while not retcons (per se) pointlessly clash with or fly in the face of what was previously established-- that's not exercising creative freedom in action, that's slipshod writing

A follow to the above comment. Considering that your biggest grippe was the power armor types, it is exactly the minor details that SMBComix eluded to.

Don't get me wrong, the power armor isn't my biggest gripe, necessarily, and certainly not a big gripe on anything but a very relative scale. It's just that the thread is about canon in the F4 trailer and that's the thing that was most noticeable to me as far as the topic's concerned. Don't ask me why. Maybe we've seen too many power armor discussions here over the years, and I guess I've gained too much awareness of the inflated importance it's taken on as a series necessity. Maybe it's just that it's indicative of a larger trend; power creep and pre- and post-war tech level creep have been an issue in the series, even as the armors themselves were made less and less potent.

What I'm talking about in the quote there is on a much larger scale. The small things do bear some notice, though-- it's a sort of Ship of Theseus issue. You can call any little point raised an insignificant complaint and you wouldn't necessarily be wrong, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that if you change enough little things, you've changed a large portion of the world. If you swap out most of the boards used to make a ship, is it still the same ship? Only in this case, they've not only swapped out boards, they've put the new ship together according to an entirely new blueprint. You might be able to change either the shape OR the substance of a thing and still call it the same thing, but it gets increasingly hard to do it if you alter both. Continually.

I'm not even really too zealous about any of this, just clarifying since the point was raised. I'm probably looking forward to F4 more than half the people here, but that doesn't change the facts, and as a committed fan of the old games there's nothing wrong with recognizing them.

(I'm going to apologize in advance if you're in the process of quoting this post, I put it together during a business call and had to fix it up once I was less distracted, so it's likely not going to resemble anything you're responding to.)

 

[The_Time_Master]

any ship of Theseus discussion gets my cock hard, so here I cum!

The simple answer is yes, it's the original ship if you factor in the history of it's component parts. Just like your vessel, the body that holds the identity of your username. Over the years cells have grown and mutated, even your OS has changed in it's view towards reality. You are still your username. After billions of cells have been replaced the vessel with the HISTORY of your username still remains your username.

The reality that people can't logically think about is if every discarded cell was used to build a replica of username, would that replica be username? I contest not, since it's the original growing and changing username.

An identity is about the history, not about the cells. History of the cells, sure but not of the physical cells themselves.

Replace your arm wiht a cybernetic implant, you are still yourself, now with the history of replacing your arm with a machine. If that arm is used elsewhere, it has a different history than your own, even if it is reunited will all of your replaced parts.

This is one philosophical argument that I can't comprehend why people still debate to this day. Items have history, and history define the object.

 

[Battlecross]

The thing is though, retcons happen all the time, and not just to Fallout. It's the one problem with fictional universes in general; their histories are always subject to minor (or major) changes depending on the stories that the writers want to tell. To have a fictional universe free of retcons, you'll need to either stifle any sort of creativity going forward, avoid doing sequels, plan out every last minute detail of backstory yourself (thereby effecting option one) -- which could quite possibly take many, many years -- or any combination of the above. Either way, retcons keep the series going and evolving from a story standpoint.

Precisely. If you stay beholden to some old piece of info forever it can get stale, and quite boring. There is no major franchise without tons of retcons or changes. Tony Stark didn't make Ultron, Hank Pym did but for movie purposes it makes sense why they changed it. Wolverine never had bone claws and that was later retconned in. The USS Enterprise 1701-D encountered the Ferengi first but then Captain Archer and the NX-01 did later, etc.

 

[Walpknut]

Tons of retcons is a sure way of removing any tension or consistency from a story.
The example with the movies doesn't work, because the movies are not in the same continuity as the comics, they are their own thing. So that's a pretty non sensical example. Also Superhero comics are like the worst example possible to show how retcons result in quality. That's like using Ube Boll Movies to claim Videogame movies are not bad.

 

[Hassknecht]

Couldn't there be similar types of tiltrotor aircraft prior to the Vertibird used by the Enclave? I mean, the concept of tiltrotors has been around since the '40s, I'd be rather surprised if they only started to develop tiltrotors in the 2070s...

 

[fred2]

What I'm talking about in the quote there is on a much larger scale. The small things do bear some notice, though-- it's a sort of Ship of Theseus issue. You can call any little point raised an insignificant complaint and you wouldn't necessarily be wrong, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that if you change enough little things, you've changed a large portion of the world.[...]

Generally speaking I agree, when FO3 first came with its realtime, FPP, open-world (and many of Oblivion design issues) such discussions had a lot of traction. However, the examples here... lets just say that no one will mention the specific date of Vertibirds introduction as being what is Fallout to them. And I feel that people who aren't come to terms with FO3 just nitpick to justify their unhappiness.

Btw, I am fine with explanation provided in the Vault:

Spoiler

When the Great War struck in 2077, the XVB02 Vertibird was still in prototype phase, scheduled to enter full military service in 2085.[1] Limited trial runs were developed and pressed into service, including winterized models during the last stages of the Anchorage Reclamation[2] and transportation models used on the home front near the city of Boston.[3]

Tons of retcons is a sure way of removing any tension or consistency from a story.
The example with the movies doesn't work, because the movies are not in the same continuity as the comics, they are their own thing. So that's a pretty non sensical example. Also Superhero comics are like the worst example possible to show how retcons result in quality. That's like using Ube Boll Movies to claim Videogame movies are not bad.

I might be wrong, but I think that Video games result in a lot more retcons by necessity of gameplay. Unlike books where most is left to the imagination, in games with high def game models you have far less freedom with under the ever watchful eye of fans. ( e.g. engine limits, motion capture, animation, physics, theme\style)

For example, I wouldn't rule out that the reason why the new PA armor was introduced in FO3 was because the designers thought that the old design didn't looked\moved well in FPP or possibly fit future plans like armor customization or the landing jets we seen.

 

[SMBComix]

Just look at DC/Marvel mainstream comicbook lines, they are so filled with retcons and bullshit that they are almost impenetrable for new readers and most people still reading them just get frustrated at the constant change, when a story starts just retconing things and the writter keeps pulling stuff out of their rear that cklashes with the rest any sense of tension, payoff and discovery is completely scrubbed off the game. Nothign really matters because it will get changed by some other dude next semester. Was the backstory rich? Well it won't be for long because we'll just reveal that half of it was a simulation or fake memories implanted by an alien, etc. DC has the sense to reboot it after it gets to a certain level of convolutedness but they still excercise so little quality assurance on tone and rules that it just invariably ends up becoming a mess again.

I hate to break it to you, but Marvel does the same thing, last I checked... at least outside of the cinematic universe. Fuck, a renowned sci-fi series called Doctor Who does the same thing on a regular basis, in ALL the mediums it's published.

In response to an earlier comment from you, I don't appreciate your remarks about the quality of my writing. You haven't read a single thing I've written, so you're in no position to judge. And no, speaking from personal experience, if you don't bend the rules you CANNOT craft a really creative story -- all you're doing is furthering someone else's vision. There's nothing there that's actually yours except events that transpire in the present. It's basically like writing fan-fiction as a serious work -- you can't do anything really big with it for fear that you'll accidentally conflict with something someone else (like the creator) writes later.

I understand your gripes, I really do, but as a guy who writes his OWN stories (as well as fan-fiction) on a regular, semi-daily basis, and does so SERIOUSLY, I can't take you seriously when you espouse things I know from first-hand experience to be false. As much as I'd love for it to be true, it just simply isn't.

Really, I don't see the point in trashing this stuff or even arguing about it -- it's a non-issue. If you want consistency in a narrative, you're much better off focusing on TRUE stories instead of fictional ones contributed to by numerous writers, because like war, and unlike fiction, reality never changes.

 

[fred2]

I think that the OP point about no "Warning of nuclear attack" exemplifies the point SMBComic is making.

It refers to the prior warning seen in Fallout 4 trailer, which conflict with POTUS comment in Fallout 2, that states that the 'Chinese launched first and there was no warning on the East Coast'.

If true, it will significantly limits the option for world building on the East Coast. Otherwise, it allows Beth more freedom to set a parallel story without interfering with the events on the West coast, it change nothing about FO1\FO2(or FO:NV) experience and we can come up with an easy explanation for that single comment. For example Propaganda: "those bastards they hit us first, without a warning!"

Btw that segment from FO4 intro, reminded me of this :

The Citizen's parents were reduced to ash, as they didn't believe the government's bombing raid sirens. The Citizen made their way to the relocation center and is escorted to a Vault by Corporal Armstrong of the 4th Armored Infantry Division. - Interplay, Van Buren​

 

[Walpknut]

I think people are misunderstanding Richardson's statement about "No warning", Beth's fallout have retconned a lot of things, but this isn't one of them. What he meant is that the CHINESE didn't give a previous warnning, they launched their nukes without telling the US, now this doesn't mean there were no siren raids for people to get into the Vaults, for a nuclear attack of such magnitude to happen, and for the US to retaliate in kind there is enough time for them to get prepared, the Chinese would eventually enter US Airspace if they wanted to attack, Nukes don't fly at the speed of light, and they could've even made attempts at alerting the populace at least as a last minute thing. If they didn't then there wouldn't be people in the Vaults at all. I mean it has been stablished that it was a 2 hour long Nuclear exchange, not all of the country was attacked at the same time, after the first hits Raid siresn would start go off and people would make it for the Vaults.

 

[SMBComix]

I think people are misunderstanding Richardson's statement about "No warning", Beth's fallout have retconned a lot of things, but this isn't one of them. What he meant is that the CHINESE didn't give a previous warnning, they launched their nukes without telling the US, now this doesn't mean there were no siren raids for people to get into the Vaults, for a nuclear attack of such magnitude to happen, and for the US to retaliate in kind there is enough time for them to get prepared, the Chinese would eventually enter US Airspace if they wanted to attack, Nukes don't fly at the speed of light, and they could've even made attempts at alerting the populace at least as a last minute thing. If they didn't then there wouldn't be people in the Vaults at all. I mean it has been stablished that it was a 2 hour long Nuclear exchange, not all of the country was attacked at the same time, after the first hits Raid siresn would start go off and people would make it for the Vaults.

At least those who didn't suffer from the "cry wolf" effect brought about by the numerous drills they had over the years. Don't forget about that bit! -- Not everyone who had a place in a vault actually made an attempt to go to the vault because they thought the sirens were just another drill; they didn't know this was really the apocalypse.

Most likely those are also the same people who didn't watch the news.

 

[Al C4pone]

Indeed, i appreciate all the work the people of the vault and keepers of Chronicles of other settings do (some of them treat those setting as if real life), but whats the first rule?

Spoiler

Gameplay comes first.

The reason you see the Vertibird this early on, is to establish it as a major gameplay element in FO4.(similarly the enclave appeared in FO2) The reason you need to confirm "registration" is because it fits well into their intro which IMO doesn't get enough credit.

well , the gameplay might be good . it might be an good futuristic 50s post apocalyptic sandboxy game ... but official lore and bethesda are 2 things which doesnt belong to each other ... all stuff ive seen so far from the game is way too much high tec stuff like the verti bird 6 or 7 pas , 700 weapon modifications , even more worse that u see one verti in the beginning , well u get to see many i think , verti bird minigun ive catched from the ingame footage also . it looks like some good shooter that focused on all that fancy stuff , but tbh its raping and breaking the whole lore from the previous titles ... it looks like some fun game to play but in the end to break it down as an fallout title it looks horrible , too muchh high tec stuff , same old factions , same old PAs , same old BoS , Enclace , just flyin around in verti bird is new but also meh , i mean look at the originals , look at new vegas ... fallout doesnt live from its high tec stuff , to me it seems like bethesda got a wrong vision of how fallout shud be ... juts more guns bigger the better , high tec stuff like candy everywhere ... where is da lone feeling when i have all that stuff around me ? oh wait collecting bobbleheads wtf , bethesda fuck you for turning such atmospheric world into some action skyrim mod (it feels like they really converted that ol skyrim into the next fallout just throw an flare and ur personal verti bird drops by with pilot hahaha or should i say better scream and your dragon will come to fly you around)

also back to your enclave introduction ,well as an old fallout fan u know them just by after all these years , but in fallout2 enclave was somethign totally new and when u look on the crashed verti bird in klamath u dont even know that its named verti bird plus u really meet them very late ingame if u dont go straight to navarro which i doubt at first playthrough ... some freaky encounters with horrigan , dam man ... u just cant compare this fo4 garbage shit to something classic ... im still waitng for something new ala new enemy faction but all i have seen is just old compiled stuff Enclave , BOS MEH MEH ... last game i played from them was skyrim and i never finnsihed it ...

 

[EnclaveKnight]

Honestly, I am going to play the game, like anyone else on here. Does it really matter right now what we think anyways?

 

[Walpknut]

Because forums are places to exchange ideas?

 

[EnclaveKnight]

Because forums are places to exchange ideas?

We do not make the game, so whatever Ideas we share are just our opinions. If we did, the game would never be made in the first place.

 

[Walpknut]

So? What does that have to do with a Forum being a place for people to exchange ideas? You are not even contributing to the thread, so are you asking people to stop saying their opinions? Kind of preposterous of you.

 

[EnclaveKnight]

So? What does that have to do with a Forum being a place for people to exchange ideas? You are not even contributing to the thread, so are you asking people to stop saying their opinions? Kind of preposterous of you.

You must have a very active imagination. I am not telling people to do anything. Just saying that I plan to play the game before griping about it.

 

[Walpknut]

So you are telling them to stop saying their opinions and sharing their theories and ideas just because you say so. No matter how you word it that's what you are saying.

 

[EnclaveKnight]

So you are telling them to stop saying their opinions and sharing their theories and ideas just because you say so. No matter how you word it that's what you are saying.

*facepalm* what i am saying is no "Fallout NV was better written and had a cooler story" or "no voices in my Fallout, it is not cool" but word it in a POSITIVE manner or of you cannot, don't say a thing. it is okay to share ideas, just do it in a way that is not sounding like you know better than everyone else.

 

[Walpknut]

So you come to a fallout focused forum to tell people to not talk about the newest piece of Fallout related news in a manner you don't like and you say so in three different threads..... Why are you even on the forum anyway?

 

[EnclaveKnight]

So you come to a fallout focused forum to tell people to not talk about the newest piece of Fallout related news in a manner you don't like and you say so in three different threads..... Why are you even on the forum anyway?

Sorry, continue with your regularly scheduled entitlement with the rest of the internet about a game that is almost out.