Bethesda's Lore Recons

[Askorti]

Even in New Vegas, which made a massive deal about how House deflected most the nukes, keeping the area clean, many towns, such a Nipton, have their water supply, which comes from the local water tower, contaminated with radiation, it even has a small radioactive pool forming below the nozzle they get water out of. Even in pristine areas such as the Mojave, radioactive water is still a problem to many.

Yup, lets just conveniently forget about Lake Mead which is pure, clean and fresh water. And the fact that NCR has built/fixed up pipes that carry this water around the Mojave. In the Mojave rads-free water is not an issue at all, most people have relatively easy access to it on a daily basis. And it wasn't even explained how come the water is clean, because it simply *should be*. It should've been the responsibility of Fallout 3 to explain why the Potomac is so irradiated, which I don't think they have done.

Also, using real-world science is perfectly fine as long as the game/book/show doesn't actively state otherwise. Yes, radiation is magic, when it comes to mutations, but it's stated. Nowhere in the fallout lore is it said, that it also stays longer in the ground/water and why.

 

[Someguy37]

Yup, lets just conveniently forget about Lake Mead which is pure, clean and fresh water. And the fact that NCR has built/fixed up pipes that carry this water around the Mojave. In the Mojave rads-free water is not an issue at all, most people have relatively easy access to it on a daily basis. And it wasn't even explained how come the water is clean, because it simply *should be*. It should've been the responsibility of Fallout 3 to explain why the Potomac is so irradiated, which I don't think they have done.

Also, using real-world science is perfectly fine as long as the game/book/show doesn't actively state otherwise. Yes, radiation is magic, when it comes to mutations, but it's stated. Nowhere in the fallout lore is it said, that it also stays longer in the ground/water and why.

-Yes, lets forget that if everyone got their water from the lake, it would mean they would have to march 50+ miles through the desert both ways every time they needed a glass of water, because that's realistic.

-And the NCR's pipes only go to Vegas proper, none of the southern settlements are connected. Lets not forget that the NCR only showed up 7 years before the game began, which means for the 197 years before they showed up, not even Vegas itself had easily accessible clean water.

-And no, its explicitly stated the whole reason why the mojave has clean water is because House deflect most of the nukes. Its literally one of the games major plot points. I don't see how you could get that wrong.

-Except for the fact it was stated as far back as Fallout 1 and 2 that radiation stayed around far longer then it should, hence why there are many mentions of it still being around when it wouldn't.

 

[Crni Vuk]

-Yes, lets forget that if everyone got their water from the lake, it would mean they would have to march 50+ miles through the desert both ways every time they needed a glass of water, because that's realistic.

Been to some parts of Africa/Arabia lately?

 

[naossano]

Can someone update the original post ? That Retcon list seems pretty interesting, but i doubt many people would want to scroll the whole 34 pages to gather it.

It doesn't matter if some of them are minor retcon. It is up to the reader to make up is mind about the retcons he accept and those he doesn't.

 

[Someguy37]

Been to some parts of Africa/Arabia lately?

No, but I know what its like there, I do keep up on the news.

And they are far below even the primitive civilization we see in NV, so... thanks for proving my point!

 

[Askorti]

-Yes, lets forget that if everyone got their water from the lake, it would mean they would have to march 50+ miles through the desert both ways every time they needed a glass of water, because that's realistic.

-And the NCR's pipes only go to Vegas proper, none of the southern settlements are connected. Lets not forget that the NCR only showed up 7 years before the game began, which means for the 197 years before they showed up, not even Vegas itself had easily accessible clean water.

-And no, its explicitly stated the whole reason why the mojave has clean water is because House deflect most of the nukes. Its literally one of the games major plot points. I don't see how you could get that wrong.

-Except for the fact it was stated as far back as Fallout 1 and 2 that radiation stayed around far longer then it should, hence why there are many mentions of it still being around when it wouldn't.

- They could take the water from the Colorado river too, if memory serves me right, it's just as clean as the lake. Water can be stored, remember? Towns could have periodic water transports from the lake and then store it in water towers and other containers, and in case of it getting in any way spoiled, boil it or otherwise treat it just to make sure. Water merchants are a thing too, it was quite a big thing in Fallout 1. Also, there's Lake New Vegas, which is just south of camp Golf, I believe it has clean water.

- Most, but not all the nukes. If radiation was so persistent, it wouldn't take much radioactive material to spoil the water in the lake, especially since it's standing water. And House could only deflect the nukes that were to hit the city proper, not the surrounding countryside, which was still hit with several warheads.

I must say I don't remember those mentions of radiation staying for longer. Care to point out who mentioned it?

 

[Someguy37]

- They could take the water from the Colorado river too, if memory serves me right, it's just as clean as the lake. Water can be stored, remember? Towns could have periodic water transports from the lake and then store it in water towers and other containers, and in case of it getting in any way spoiled, boil it or otherwise treat it just to make sure. Water merchants are a thing too, it was quite a big thing in Fallout 1. Also, there's Lake New Vegas, which is just south of camp Golf, I believe it has clean water.

- Most, but not all the nukes. If radiation was so persistent, it wouldn't take much radioactive material to spoil the water in the lake, especially since it's standing water. And House could only deflect the nukes that were to hit the city proper, not the surrounding countryside, which was still hit with several warheads.

I must say I don't remember those mentions of radiation staying for longer. Care to point out who mentioned it?

The point at which you have to rely on "coulds" is the point at which the game has failed to explain its world properly. We don't see, or hear mentions of, the various towns such as Primm, or Novac, making frequent water transports to the lake/river and back, so they don't happen.

The water merchants are a thing... in the NCR, which only appeared in the mojave region 7 years ago. They COULD get their water from there, though that's never stated, but that would still leave where they got water for the 197 years before that unexplained.

Also, the water towers ARE the things providing irradiated water that I was talking about, so if they are storing their water there, they are only making it radioactive doing so.


-Not really, radiation being persistent only means it says around a long time. As we see in places like the Cottonwood Crater, and the Mesquite Mountains Crater, the radiation is still quite there. That doesn't mean it necessarily spread to the water supply. Although the fact that the NCRCF, Primm, Nipton, Novac, Nelson, Wolfhorn Ranch, and other areas in the southern half of the Mojave, do have irradiated water, shows the nukes must have effected the local underground water tables, though it apparently didn't spread to the lake/river.


According to various source, the rain still glows sometime, the water still glows sometimes, and radiation still lingers around even 80+ years after the war.
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/HUBJAKE.MSG
What do you need a Gieger counter for!? [Laughs] Though it's been 80 years or so since the bombs fell, there's still radiation around, you goof. You can't see it, never could, but it's there. Heck I'm willin' to bet you got some counts on you now. Everyone that lives in the wastes has a few RAD counts.
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/TYCHO.MSG
Had some pretty good training, and some good weapons, too. My grandfather was a Ranger way back when, and he taught my father everything he knew. Dad passed it on to me. So I know enough not to drink glowing water, so to speak.
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/VREE.MSG
Don't drink the glowing water.
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/BLADE.MSG
Have you ever seen the rain glow?


None of this should be happening 80+ years after the war if radiation decayed at the rate it does in real life.

 

[Askorti]

The woman at the pit-stop before new Vegas mentions, that she was selling water before NCR rolled in, and she indeed did fetch it all the way from lake Mead until the pipes were installed. Since she sells it, she must be able to take in quite a supply of that water, not just what she needs herself. Most merchants have water to sell. Where do they get it? if they can sell it, then they must have a supply of it. It doubt a merchant from Goodsprings or Primm would go all the way to lake mead just to take some water and then sell it for a rather low price.

I think you're really underestimating the people of Mojave. Just because someone said that before House/NCR it was just some tribes doesn't mean, that people lived in that bad conditions. Life in a tribe can be quite a good thing and a big civilization is not necessary to live a good life in such a world.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Been to some parts of Africa/Arabia lately?

No, but I know what its like there, I do keep up on the news.

And they are far below even the primitive civilization we see in NV, so... thanks for proving my point!

All I am saying is that it's not uncommon that people will travel quite some distance to get their water. 50 miles might be a bit much, granted, but still.

You again chose to use reality when it helps your arguments but always dismiss it when it works against you.

 

[Someguy37]

The woman at the pit-stop before new Vegas mentions, that she was selling water before NCR rolled in, and she indeed did fetch it all the way from lake Mead until the pipes were installed. Since she sells it, she must be able to take in quite a supply of that water, not just what she needs herself. Most merchants have water to sell. Where do they get it? if they can sell it, then they must have a supply of it. It doubt a merchant from Goodsprings or Primm would go all the way to lake mead just to take some water and then sell it for a rather low price.

I think you're really underestimating the people of Mojave. Just because someone said that before House/NCR it was just some tribes doesn't mean, that people lived in that bad conditions. Life in a tribe can be quite a good thing and a big civilization is not necessary to live a good life in such a world.

-Actually no, she doesn't. She says the NCR fixed up the pipes, and that water merchants like her are allowed to have some of it and sell it, as long as they have a water license, which is said in such a way to indicate that having a water license is something for a financial burden. She then goes on to say that its better to pay for the license then it would be to have to trek over to the lake. She never says she used to go down to the lake to fetch water. Whats more is that the shop she is at was set up for people going to and from Vegas. Vegas didn't exist as a post-war city until after the NCR found Hoover Dam, and House rallied the three families to fortify the city to prevent the NCR from annexing it. Her shop literally HAS to be post NCR arrival, as no one was going to Vegas before then, so she couldn't have been there selling water at a time when she would have needed to walk to the lake.

-I never said they lived in bad conditions, and I made no mention of their lives as tribals. I only mentioned that the water in the southern part of the Mojave is irradiated, and that it would be very inconvenient for them to have to walk such a long distance to get fresh water.

This was all OFC filtering back into the original point that water is still irradiated in the Fallout world, even 80 to 200 years after the war, as mentioned by people in Fallout 1, 3, and as seen in many places in New Vegas.

This is further supported by people like Ruby Nash in Primm
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Ruby_Nash's_dialogue
"Fresh food and water is worth it's weight in gold... You've got yourself a deal."

And by Billy Knight, who uses the fact that water still glows as a joke in his comedy routine.
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Billy_Knight's_dialogue
"People say it's hard to survive the Wasteland - how hard can it be, the water glows in the dark!"

The end point being that water being irradiated, and radiation lasting for period of time it shouldn't, is something seen in all Fallout games, and it wasn't something invented by Fallout 3.

You again chose to use reality when it helps your arguments but always dismiss it when it works against you.

I have only dismissed reality hen it comes to radiation, because the series has shown it doesn't work on reality.

Your attempts to try to reduce the argument into an all or nothing game are transparent, and speak of frothing desperation, and a lack of ability to make an actual counter argument.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Didn't you also defended the ruins of Boston and general lack of destruction and also the nuclear cars exploding in mushroom clouds? Just to use "reality", like vikings as argument for Ten Penny and Moriarty making it across the ocean? I could be wrong though. It's just what I remember right now.

 

[Someguy37]

Didn't you also defended the ruins of Boston and general lack of destruction and also the nuclear cars exploding in mushroom clouds? Just to use "reality", like vikings as argument for Ten Penny and Moriarty making it across the ocean? I could be wrong though. It's just what I remember right now.

Again, blatant misrepresentation of the stated arguments.
A. The lack of destruction is something that goes back as far as Fallout 1. This is a consistent break from reality across all Fallout games.
B. The ability to fix up boats and sail them was something shown as far back as Fallout 2, and again in Point Lookout. This is consistent with reality and things seen in previous Fallout games.

At least try next time.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Your point A was already debunked by at least 3 other users. So I am not sure why you still insist on that point even though it was just a 20 sec. intro ... that has pretty much zero impact on the game. Get it finally in your thick skull. You're playing the game, not the intro.

 

[Someguy37]

The intro doesn't change the ending slides, Tactics, Fallout 3, and New Vegas, all of which showed the same.

I don't don't why you people are so hellbent on trying to revise history, and act like the intro was this anomalous thing that doesn't matter, when such a thing wouldn't be true for any other game.

 

[LiveOnTheEdge]

Your point A was already debunked by at least 3 other users. So I am not sure why you still insist on that point even though it was just a 20 sec. intro ... that has pretty much zero impact on the game. Get it finally in your thick skull. You're playing the game, not the intro.

I'd say the intro is very much a part of the game. Since it's the intro, the introduction to the world space, it kinda sets up the world. Sure it's not in the playable game, but it is in-game.

Obviously promotional material, and concept art, and cut content should be taken with a grain of salt or outright disregarded, unless the devs say otherwise, or maybe give an indication in-game that some of that stuff might line up right. But the intro is something that very much did make it into the final product. So that struck me a little weird when early people were conflating all that together.

I don't guess they really showed a lot of tall still standing buildings in the original Fallout games, but wouldn't that probably be more because of engine limitations or because of the isometric viewpoint? Especially given the things you see in the intro and I think the endings too.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Didn't you also defended the ruins of Boston and general lack of destruction and also the nuclear cars exploding in mushroom clouds? Just to use "reality", like vikings as argument for Ten Penny and Moriarty making it across the ocean? I could be wrong though. It's just what I remember right now.

Again, blatant misrepresentation of the stated arguments.
A. The lack of destruction is something that goes back as far as Fallout 1. This is a consistent break from reality across all Fallout games.
B. The ability to fix up boats and sail them was something shown as far back as Fallout 2, and again in Point Lookout. This is consistent with reality and things seen in previous Fallout games.

At least try next time.

I understand a tanker full of an entire CREW sailing for a distance. I understand a river boat with a captain sailing for a small distance. However these don't compare to two people, alone sailing the FUCKING ATLANTIC OCEAN.

Great comparisons, really good!

 

[Hardboiled Android]

And you'd have people questioning why they haven't been able to rebuild more after 200+ years. Even now there's people asking that kind of question. (Though that could just be limited to Bethesda's setting.)

Obsidian took it further then Bethesda ever did TBH.

We learn in New Vegas that for nearly 200 years since the war, the Vegas areas, as well as the states of Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, and Colorado were nothing but primitive tribal groups who couldn't read, had no permanent settlements, roads, calendars, mines, or anything resembling civilization, outside the towns of New Canaan and Tuson.

D.C. at least had places like Megaton, and Underworld, and Boston had places like Diamond City, 50+ years ago, and its known the east coast has had established trade routes since so soon after the bombs fell that there were some people didn't know what ghouls were.

The Four Corners area makes the east coast look positively advanced by comparison.

That's not even bringing up the pacific northwest, which is stated in New Vegas to be nothing but wilderness and ruins, so broken that the Great Khans, who were on their very last legs in New Vegas, were able to forge a mighty empire out of it in basically no time.

For as undeveloped the east coast is, basically everything in the western U.S. outside California is many times less so.

Because that's how the four corners were for much of history IRL. Incredibly harsh, with poor soil, led to a proliferation of tribal peoples.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

However these don't compare to two people, alone sailing the FUCKING ATLANTIC OCEAN.

Great comparisons, really good!

We don't know how large the ships that are apparently crossing the Atlantic are. But once you know that there's something on the other side of the ocean and you have the supplies to do it, it's really not that arduous a journey.

 

[Dr Fallout]

However these don't compare to two people, alone sailing the FUCKING ATLANTIC OCEAN.

Great comparisons, really good!

We don't know how large the ships that are apparently crossing the Atlantic are. But once you know that there's something on the other side of the ocean and you have the supplies to do it, it's really not that arduous a journey.

Yes but if the ship is big it needs a crew, and Tenpenny doesn't state he was on a big ship that had tons of supplies.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Your point A was already debunked by at least 3 other users. So I am not sure why you still insist on that point even though it was just a 20 sec. intro ... that has pretty much zero impact on the game. Get it finally in your thick skull. You're playing the game, not the intro.

I'd say the intro is very much a part of the game. Since it's the intro, the introduction to the world space, it kinda sets up the world. Sure it's not in the playable game, but it is in-game.

Obviously promotional material, and concept art, and cut content should be taken with a grain of salt or outright disregarded, unless the devs say otherwise, or maybe give an indication in-game that some of that stuff might line up right. But the intro is something that very much did make it into the final product. So that struck me a little weird when early people were conflating all that together.

I don't guess they really showed a lot of tall still standing buildings in the original Fallout games, but wouldn't that probably be more because of engine limitations or because of the isometric viewpoint? Especially given the things you see in the intro and I think the endings too.

Because we are talking about the shitty use of nukes in Fallout 3 and 4. That's why. Because they don't look like they could even do any damage at all.

We are talking about THIS here, again a part that is what? 30 sec. long and also showing a pre-war TV with pre-war footage without any visible power source which is obviously NOT really part of the gameplay and just there to set the mood, while the ruins of DC and Boston are pretty much a part of the gameplay and visible at almost all times.

We can not assume that the intro is there to give us an accurate describtion of the gameworld. Besides, really, it is just a 10-15 sec. slide showing 3 buildings in the distance. And from that alone we want to guess what nuclear destruction in the Fallout world really is like, while we have the whole game to judge?

If you're getting further in to the intro, you also see real war footage and images of ruins that show almost no buildings at all. So what it is now? The narrative also tells us that the world was reduced to cinders. That's really not how the world in F3 and 4 looks like either - At least NV was going so far to at least TRY to explain it to the player with House protecting the town of Vegas! So apparantly Obsidian was at least aware about the issue!

I say it again, the intro is NOT the best reference material, it's there to set the mood. Not to give us an 100% accurate describtion of how the nuclear weapons in Fallout work. We have other sources for that.

No matter how you spin it though, it is painfully obvious that Bethesda decided their nuclear wareheads are not worse than a normal explosion. Most probably because they feel that a player needs skyscrapers full of Super Mutants to crawl around this time or what ever.