Betheseda MIGHT be learning from there mistakes

Urthor said:
If we're going to level criticism at Bethesda, at this point it's fairly pointless to criticise them for having a wildly different vision about what an RPG is to Fallout 2's. The horse has bolted, Robert Altman and Zenimax, arugably the best run business unit in the games industry, grabbed the brand and ran with it and if we're honest, rewarded and touched far more people than Fallout 1 & 2 ever did by leveraging Bethesda's audience.

The thing is, Bethesda are getting things wrong that conflict with the ideal vision of their platform, as well as NMA's, there's an absolute overlap between what their audience demands and what NMA's demands. Dialogue for one, also the prose and micro quality of writing, and arguably the expansive themes and ideas that were present in Obsidian's writing but really absent in FO3. It's too early to criticise the plotline/prose reallly, from the leaks it looks like they're borrowed touches from New Vegas, but nothing like enough to judge them.

Point is, rather than descending into the split sided discussion, with one side as the isometric turn based grognards, and the other as the Bethesda sell out Call of Duty ring ins, better for both sides to crucify the 3 choice dialogue system and all the consequences it entails, as well as the other details that matter to both. There's no point yearning after a 90s bus that's left you behind.
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Oh not again...

I see what you're saying but keep the peace messages down. They're not making us think on what we're doing, they're frankly just annoying.
 
If only people expected Morrowind standards on all of their games...
 
TorontRayne said:
If only people expected Morrowind standards on all of their games...
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It would lead to a more detailed game, but honestly? The Morrowind formula is still TES, not Fallout. Two extremly different concepts. I mean just saying! As good as Morrowind as game is, I would not want a Morraut 4 with guns either ...
 
Urthor said:
If we're going to level criticism at Bethesda, at this point it's fairly pointless to criticise them for having a wildly different vision about what an RPG is to Fallout 2's. The horse has bolted, Robert Altman and Zenimax, arugably the best run business unit in the games industry, grabbed the brand and ran with it and if we're honest, rewarded and touched far more people than Fallout 1 & 2 ever did by leveraging Bethesda's audience.

The thing is, Bethesda are getting things wrong that conflict with the ideal vision of their platform, as well as NMA's, there's an absolute overlap between what their audience demands and what NMA's demands. Dialogue for one, also the prose and micro quality of writing, and arguably the expansive themes and ideas that were present in Obsidian's writing but really absent in FO3. It's too early to criticise the plotline/prose reallly, from the leaks it looks like they're borrowed touches from New Vegas, but nothing like enough to judge them.

Point is, rather than descending into the split sided discussion, with one side as the isometric turn based grognards, and the other as the Bethesda sell out Call of Duty ring ins, better for both sides to crucify the 3 choice dialogue system and all the consequences it entails, as well as the other details that matter to both. There's no point yearning after a 90s bus that's left you behind.
Click to expand...

At this point nobody is criticizing Bethesda for making Fallout as an FPS, what we are criticizing beth for is exactly the problems you say to be overlapping between the audiences (bad writing, bad dialogue, illusion of choices). The real issue is that there is a large portion of the new Fallout fanbase who does not care about good writing, good dialogue or deep roleplaying and Bethesda keeps pandering to those players.
 
Crni Vuk said:
TorontRayne said:
If only people expected Morrowind standards on all of their games...
Click to expand...

It would lead to a more detailed game, but honestly? The Morrowind formula is still TES, not Fallout. Two extremly different concepts. I mean just saying! As good as Morrowind as game is, I would not want a Morraut 4 with guns either ...
Click to expand...

Oh I'm not saying we want the gameplay, no, no, no just the amount of detail in writing, which I'm sure you agree, goes for anything!
 
Crni Vuk said:
TorontRayne said:
If only people expected Morrowind standards on all of their games...
Click to expand...

It would lead to a more detailed game, but honestly? The Morrowind formula is still TES, not Fallout. Two extremly different concepts. I mean just saying! As good as Morrowind as game is, I would not want a Morraut 4 with guns either ...
Click to expand...

Well, Morrowind might have gone overboard with writing BUT it still did something right by steering away from the cliche fantasy in many ways. Familiar but still it it's own unique touch.

F3's problem, and now F4's problem, is that Bethesda went with the 'fanservice' approach by taking a lot of region specific lore and tossed it across the country. Sure, they could have gotten away with it but a lot of it was badly implemented or simply not explained at all. It could have worked but it just felt.. meh. I don't even wanna get started on Tenpenny coming across the sea.

We also have to remember that conversations are still one of the most important ways to learn information about the game and it's world and people in crpg's. In real world you know things, you have means to find out information otherwise.. but in games it's limited. Hence why conversations traditionally sprawl all over the place to satisfy peoples curiosity and help understanding the world.. and I would say it's better way than the other traditional method which Bethesda has been big on as well, books.

I can't blame them completely for going with the route they did, there's many different ways you can approach crpg's. F3 and F4 seem to be steering more to the direction of a specified storyline like Mass Effects or say.. DA2? It can be good, it can be very entertaining, when done properly. F3's main storyline was on horrible tracks and.. there was nothing to do about it. No choice whatsoever really.

For me it just clashes with the otherwise 'sandbox' like world which screams of possibilities and such. That's one of the many reasons I like New Vegas more. You decide who your character is, rather than the game developers deciding on who you are..
 
Eumesmopo said:
Urthor said:
If we're going to level criticism at Bethesda, at this point it's fairly pointless to criticise them for having a wildly different vision about what an RPG is to Fallout 2's. The horse has bolted, Robert Altman and Zenimax, arugably the best run business unit in the games industry, grabbed the brand and ran with it and if we're honest, rewarded and touched far more people than Fallout 1 & 2 ever did by leveraging Bethesda's audience.

The thing is, Bethesda are getting things wrong that conflict with the ideal vision of their platform, as well as NMA's, there's an absolute overlap between what their audience demands and what NMA's demands. Dialogue for one, also the prose and micro quality of writing, and arguably the expansive themes and ideas that were present in Obsidian's writing but really absent in FO3. It's too early to criticise the plotline/prose reallly, from the leaks it looks like they're borrowed touches from New Vegas, but nothing like enough to judge them.

Point is, rather than descending into the split sided discussion, with one side as the isometric turn based grognards, and the other as the Bethesda sell out Call of Duty ring ins, better for both sides to crucify the 3 choice dialogue system and all the consequences it entails, as well as the other details that matter to both. There's no point yearning after a 90s bus that's left you behind.
Click to expand...

At this point nobody is criticizing Bethesda for making Fallout as an FPS, what we are criticizing beth for is exactly the problems you say to be overlapping between the audiences (bad writing, bad dialogue, illusion of choices). The real issue is that there is a large portion of the new Fallout fanbase who does not care about good writing, good dialogue or deep roleplaying and Bethesda keeps pandering to those players.
Click to expand...

I have seen a couple of people complaining that the new Fallout will never be Fallout because it's FPS.
 
And they would be right about that. Unless of course, you think Call of Duty makes a good Baldurs Gate or something ...

Seriously, at which point in human history has First Person Shooter become synonymous with Role Playing Game.
 
Crni Vuk said:
And they would be right about that. Unless of course, you think Call of Duty makes a good Baldurs Gate or something ...

Seriously, at which point in human history has First Person Shooter become synonymous with Role Playing Game.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's the ambitions, need to make 'bigger' games, 'better' games.. AAA-titles, become famous.. and obviously making more money, that kinda pushes things to that direction.

Making a 3d game is expensive after all, it requires a lot more work, lot more resources. It can yield some amazing results too, I've never had issues with the first person/3d approach in itself, but I do see the limitations it still comes with.
Old school crpg's are also a 'niche' apparently. Someone said it about Pillars of Eternity. Last I checked 500 000+ people owned it in Steam alone. Similar numbers go for Wasteland 2, Shadowrun Returns, Dragonfall etc.
Maybe those games are 'niche' when it comes to convincing publishers, big companies that rely on investors and the eternal growth expectations. And probably skewed views of what's good and what's bad. Top of the line graphics are always great?

Kickstarter achieved a whole lot of good by showing off that games like that can still do well, they can sell well enough to keep the business going and there's no publishers you need to convince about the funding either.. nor taking the profits of it.

Personally I don't mind how the game is done, as long as it's enjoyable to me.. I'm just glad that crpg's are still a thing.
 
Eumesmopo said:
At this point nobody is criticizing Bethesda for making Fallout as an FPS, what we are criticizing beth for is exactly the problems you say to be overlapping between the audiences (bad writing, bad dialogue, illusion of choices). The real issue is that there is a large portion of the new Fallout fanbase who does not care about good writing, good dialogue or deep roleplaying and Bethesda keeps pandering to those players.
Click to expand...

Amen, brother.
 
BigIron said:
Crni Vuk said:
And they would be right about that. Unless of course, you think Call of Duty makes a good Baldurs Gate or something ...

Seriously, at which point in human history has First Person Shooter become synonymous with Role Playing Game.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's the ambitions, need to make 'bigger' games, 'better' games.. AAA-titles, become famous.. and obviously making more money, that kinda pushes things to that direction.

Making a 3d game is expensive after all, it requires a lot more work, lot more resources. It can yield some amazing results too, I've never had issues with the first person/3d approach in itself, but I do see the limitations it still comes with.
Old school crpg's are also a 'niche' apparently. Someone said it about Pillars of Eternity. Last I checked 500 000+ people owned it in Steam alone. Similar numbers go for Wasteland 2, Shadowrun Returns, Dragonfall etc.
Maybe those games are 'niche' when it comes to convincing publishers, big companies that rely on investors and the eternal growth expectations. And probably skewed views of what's good and what's bad. Top of the line graphics are always great?

Kickstarter achieved a whole lot of good by showing off that games like that can still do well, they can sell well enough to keep the business going and there's no publishers you need to convince about the funding either.. nor taking the profits of it.

Personally I don't mind how the game is done, as long as it's enjoyable to me.. I'm just glad that crpg's are still a thing.
Click to expand...

The thing is, the big AAA developers are deluded. They have skewed views of what are good and not, ignoring the fact that CRPGs DO sell.
 
Dr Fallout said:
The thing is, the big AAA developers are deluded. They have skewed views of what are good and not, ignoring the fact that CRPGs DO sell.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, I rather think that their view of what's good is purely indifferent, and influenced almost solely on what sells to the mass-audience. That's why we get the gaming equivalent of 'Big-Macs' instead of home-cooked meals. I think their opinions are backed up with research. Sad and depressing research.
 
Gizmojunk said:
Dr Fallout said:
The thing is, the big AAA developers are deluded. They have skewed views of what are good and not, ignoring the fact that CRPGs DO sell.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, I rather think that their view of what's good is purely indifferent, and influenced almost solely on what sells to the mass-audience. That's why we get the gaming equivalent of 'Big-Macs' instead of home-cooked meals. I think their opinions are backed up with research. Sad and depressing research.
Click to expand...

They're deluded in some areas not all. When it comes to getting money, they know their basic shit.
 
Dr Fallout said:
BigIron said:
Crni Vuk said:
And they would be right about that. Unless of course, you think Call of Duty makes a good Baldurs Gate or something ...

Seriously, at which point in human history has First Person Shooter become synonymous with Role Playing Game.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's the ambitions, need to make 'bigger' games, 'better' games.. AAA-titles, become famous.. and obviously making more money, that kinda pushes things to that direction.

Making a 3d game is expensive after all, it requires a lot more work, lot more resources. It can yield some amazing results too, I've never had issues with the first person/3d approach in itself, but I do see the limitations it still comes with.
Old school crpg's are also a 'niche' apparently. Someone said it about Pillars of Eternity. Last I checked 500 000+ people owned it in Steam alone. Similar numbers go for Wasteland 2, Shadowrun Returns, Dragonfall etc.
Maybe those games are 'niche' when it comes to convincing publishers, big companies that rely on investors and the eternal growth expectations. And probably skewed views of what's good and what's bad. Top of the line graphics are always great?

Kickstarter achieved a whole lot of good by showing off that games like that can still do well, they can sell well enough to keep the business going and there's no publishers you need to convince about the funding either.. nor taking the profits of it.

Personally I don't mind how the game is done, as long as it's enjoyable to me.. I'm just glad that crpg's are still a thing.
Click to expand...

The thing is, the big AAA developers are deluded. They have skewed views of what are good and not, ignoring the fact that CRPGs DO sell.
Click to expand...

Some developers might be, but I think it comes down to the publisher aspect more often than the developer being deluded. And since gaming has become multi billion dollar industry.. well.. it's just a sad reality.

CRPG's do sell, as pointed out, despite some people claiming it to be a 'niche'.. maybe it is in the big picture of things but to me it always sounded a bit demeaning, or belittling way of describing it.

Sure, it would have been nice if even those 'small time' games such as the Shadowrun series, Pillars of Eternity etc would have sold more.. BUT.. I think they did well enough to show off that they can still keep making games that they enjoy making, and games that a good number people seemingly enjoy playing as well.

And lastly, we do have to remember that Fallout 1 & 2 never sold that amazingly either, not originally anyway. They made the money back but we're not talking about insane sales.
Yet they're remembered and praised. That's why I really hope some studios will remain small and keep doing what they do, instead of giving into that greed that seems to.. well.. if not downright ruin then at least degrade the process of making games :P
 
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