Bioshock Infinite

[PlanHex]

I look back on the game as a whole and all I can think is, why the hell couldn't I play something that had as much promise as the ending showed? I want that game instead.

On a similar note, a thought kept going through my head as I played: "All these gameplay elements (sky-hook, super powers) seem really cool and inventive. Why are they so boring and monotonous to use?"




Also, on a completely unrelated note, I want to play a mod where the entire game takes place in the subset of universes where mankind has evolved to have butts instead of faces, if such a subset exists. I'm not exactly a biologist, but I'm guessing that there's a non-zero chance of butts evolving instead of faces, in which case this subset exists.
Buttface: Infinite.

 

[PlanHex]

[spoiler:24180e2391]Except it turns out that Comstock is just your evil twin with a beard, and then the game goes batshit insane with the multiple universe stuff by inexplicably turning Elizabeth into The One from The Matrix in the span of about 5 seconds. Why do I get the distinct sense they pulled this out of their ass at the last minute and that it was never intended to be there from the start?[/spoiler:24180e2391]

[spoiler:24180e2391]Obviously they should have turned her into Jet Li from The One instead

Seriously tho', I'm not sure what you mean here, could you elaborate?
[/spoiler:24180e2391]

[spoiler:24180e2391]And don't get me started about how ending Booker's life by drowning him at his baptism makes no goddamn sense anyway, because then why can't you just enter an alternate universe where Elizabeth didn't travel back in time to drown Booker? Since every possibility that could happen does happen, for every Elizabeth that drowned Booker there was an Elizabeth who didn't. So basically, the pointlessly convoluted nature of the story coupled with the ill-defined rules of how multiple realities work invalidates the entire plot. Except the game attempts a pat, poignant ending which is in direct conflict of everything it shows you.[/spoiler:24180e2391]

[spoiler:24180e2391]Seems you've misunderstood a bit here (or I have?).
Elizabeth and Booker travel back to the point where the Comstock-universe-branch starts in the first place, and by killing Booker at the baptism effectively destroys all branches where there's a Comstock and an Elizabeth. Since Elizabeth gets all her powers from the experiments performed on her after her abduction by Comstock, there's now no universe where either exists, so she can't just *not* go back. Anna can't do any fancy time/universe jumps. She's just a normal person.

It's essentially the thing where if you travel back in time to shoot your grandfather in the face, you'd blink out of existence when he dies, but that still leaves no universes where you actually exist since your forefather took a bullet to the face and died regardless.
The force has still been exerted to eliminate that entire branch of universes despite the fact that this force is erased from existence.

Essentially, it's SUPERDUPER PARADOXICAL, but apparently that's the rules of this particular multiverse?[/spoiler:24180e2391]

 

[Tagaziel]

Please stop using "1999" as a justification for anything. It is a gamemode that is not available by default, and as such has no place in being used in defending the game in any way.

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/03/25/unlock-bioshock-infinites-1999-mode-early-with-the-konami-code/

Published a day before release.

[spoiler:426b6ad1fe]Or he is a Booker from a branch of the multiverse that never even thought of taking the baptism and therefore hasn't been erased by the drowning. Which frankly makes much more sense.[/spoiler:426b6ad1fe]

[spoiler:426b6ad1fe]Elizabeth's actions only removed the Comstocks and the Bookers that actually accepted the baptism. Since you are snapped back to the Booker lying on the floor in his hovel, this is likely the Booker that you spent time playing as.

The entire game can also be seen as a hallucination Booker experiences after he drinks a fair bit too much, where he faces the demons that plague him. Comstock symbolizes his darker side, the racist asshole he used to be, abusing his daughter. Fink/Fitzroy represent the time he spent as a Pinkerton agent (Finkton, Pinkerton, get it?) and the crimes he committed. Slate is delaing with his military past in general.

It makes sense once you think of it.[/spoiler:426b6ad1fe]

As for the story making sense:

[spoiler:426b6ad1fe]The mutliple worlds interpretation of quantum physics states that every event creates mutliple realities basing on the choice made. The Booker Elizabeths drown is a meta-Comstock, all the Bookers that would accept the baptism are killed, setting the chance of accepting the baptism at 0 and rejecting in at 1.

This introduces a grandfather paradox and reality reacts in the only way it can: deleting all the paradoxical realities until only non-paradoxical ones remain. That's why the Elizabeths disappear and the original Booker is snapped back to the point where he was before the original tampering happened.[/spoiler:426b6ad1fe]

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Everything? That doesn't seem possible.

For some reason, that comes across as more ridiculous that the revival machines.

Why not? If the variables stay largely the same the end result is also the same. You have never heard the "infinite universes" theory based on quantum physics?

Of course I have.

I don't think these infinite universes would be identical most of the time though :/

Well, ok, I suppose it is possible. Still don't like it though.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I look back on the game as a whole and all I can think is, why the hell couldn't I play something that had as much promise as the ending showed? I want that game instead.

On a similar note, a thought kept going through my head as I played: "All these gameplay elements (sky-hook, super powers) seem really cool and inventive. Why are they so boring and monotonous to use?"




Also, on a completely unrelated note, I want to play a mod where the entire game takes place in the subset of universes where mankind has evolved to have butts instead of faces, if such a subset exists. I'm not exactly a biologist, but I'm guessing that there's a non-zero chance of butts evolving instead of faces, in which case this subset exists.
Buttface: Infinite.

Ai, I thought the same thing. As I said before, the game felt a tad unsatisfying to me.

And now you have me thinking of Preacher....

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

I want this version of the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvrnUcB8ZJc

[*]It's hilarious how Columbia is at once a place that inspires wonderment and that dazzles visually, yet has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the story and, unlike Rapture in the first BioShock, is completely incidental to everything that actually takes place in the game.

That's one of my problem with the game (along with the Vigors being just there and handwaved with a single voxophone, even if it makes sense). The story could have taken place on an island and nothing would have really changed, half of the time you wouldn't even notice the difference since you can't see the "borders" anyway.

Switched difficulty to normal to avoid tedium. The game is pitifully easy that way but as a result is actually more fun because enemies are no longer HP-bloated sacks. Still boring and repetitive same old 4 enemies, but at least each fight was not a tedious "die 5 times in a row before you can even figure out what's shooting at you" festival.

Personally I think you are exagerating the problem the game has with hitscan weapons. I played first time on hard and I'm not that great with FPSs but once I got into the groove I could survive just fine. The exceptions being the Handymen (F*** them) and the Siren fights. And even there with a good setup you can kill them in 20 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmCKXz9NiWI

[spoiler:1a1e6f5d4c]Or he is a Booker from a branch of the multiverse that never even thought of taking the baptism and therefore hasn't been erased by the drowning. Which frankly makes much more sense.[/spoiler:1a1e6f5d4c]

[spoiler:1a1e6f5d4c]Elizabeth's actions only removed the Comstocks and the Bookers that actually accepted the baptism. Since you are snapped back to the Booker lying on the floor in his hovel, this is likely the Booker that you spent time playing as.

[/spoiler:1a1e6f5d4c]

Except that he isn't lying on the floor and that wouldn't prove nothing by itself. It makes much more sense my way since it actually fits what we are told through the game instead of "somehow, for some reason he didn't die and was saved by a deus-ex-machina god".

Of course I have.

I don't think these infinite universes would be identical most of the time though :/

If they are infinite there are infinite universes where the differences are incredibly small and in ways that don't affect any given person (in a desert a rock fell in a direction instead of another, for example). You are looking at it from the wrong perspective. [spoiler:1a1e6f5d4c]It's not like they were taking any Booker and bringing him to a random version of Columbia. For this to make sense they were taking Bookers from dimensions that differed in meaningless ways and bringing them to dimensions with Columbias that differed in meaningless ways. So since everything was pretty much identical everything played out in a pretty much identical way.[/spoiler:1a1e6f5d4c] That's the meaning of the "flip the coin" scene. Same variables, same result.

 

[PlanHex]

If they are infinite there are infinite universes where the differences are incredibly small and in ways that don't affect any given person (in a desert a rock fell in a direction instead of another, for example). You are looking at it from the wrong perspective. [spoiler:24210ed20a]It's not like they were taking any Booker and bringing him to a random version of Columbia. For this to make sense they were taking Bookers from dimensions that differed in meaningless ways and bringing them to dimensions with Columbias that differed in meaningless ways. So since everything was pretty much identical everything played out in a pretty much identical way.[/spoiler:24210ed20a] That's the meaning of the "flip the coin" scene. Same variables, same result.

I never got that scene. Why would those variables influence a coin toss to that level? It's just a coin toss.
[spoiler:24210ed20a]
I'm not a physicist or anything, but shouldn't the coin toss be random, despite the somewhat deterministic nature of the actions of Booker and the people of Columbia after the coin toss had been made? I.e. it's one of those irrelevant differences you're talking about.
Is it a test? Do they know for sure that everything turns out wrong whenever it hits tails, even though they couldn't possibly know that without having gone through the infinite universes where it did, which is impossible?
Why would everything leading up to the coin toss have such an effect on it or conversely why would the coin toss affect the actions following it in any meaningful way?


And speaking of those two, why the hell did they bother setting things in motion by bringing in Booker anyway? What's their stake in this? Do they care if Elizabeth grows up to burn the world? Why? They don't seem like they'd care much about that, since they followed and helped a murderous racist baby-kidnapper. Did they suddenly grow a conscience for no reason? Is it because Comstock wanted to kill them? Why didn't they just run off if that was a concern? Hell, why didn't they just go back in time and stop him instead of going through all that crap to get Elizabeth to do it? Did they forget to give themselves the super awesome time-travel powers that their work gave Elizabeth? It sure didn't seem like that from the way they kept talking about things that had happened / would happen, especially since they've apparently travelled forward in time to steal technology from Rapture and travelled forwards and backwards loads of times to get kidless Bookers to come to Columbia.
Are they just doing it for teh lulz?
Am I not remembering something or remembering something wrong? Did I miss a vital audio-log?[/spoiler:24210ed20a]

Why is quantum mechanics and determinism so haaaaaaaaaard

edit: Actually, never mind the stuff about motivation, it's probably just supposed to be MYSTARY

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Yeah, who was that guy with the bag on his head?

He was just...there.

And what happened at Comstock house? Who were those freaky guys with the masks?

 

[Tagaziel]

I like how people claim they're non-casual gamers, yet miss the yellow note on the Columbia map in the lighthouse, where Comstock notifies the lighthouse sentry that DeWitt will be coming through. The dead guy is the sentry who was supposed to kill DeWitt, but was done in himself.

The Comstock house was [spoiler:36dc5117a6]a prison/asylum where the sinners were taken for "treatment" in the Old Elizabeth reality. The people in the masks are the inmates, tortured, and brainwashed to accept the new order imposed by Old Elizabeth.[/spoiler:36dc5117a6]

The story makes sense to me and I don't see any contradictions. Maybe I'm exceptionally smart, or (more likely) I don't try to force it into a pre-existing plot framework.

 

[PlanHex]

[spoiler:cd4078b8b0]- So the Lutece twins were responsible for both Comstock and DeWitt being brought to Columbia, right?[/spoiler:cd4078b8b0]

[spoiler:cd4078b8b0] No? Comstock was already there and he's the one that built Columbia and hired the Luteces in the first place to help with that. They were just responsible for Elizabeth and Booker.[/spoiler:cd4078b8b0]

As for the plausibility of everything, I'd say they made a mistake by focusing too much on it (as in AT ALL), since such things always fall apart on some level when you think about it too much.

They should've done the same thing Looper did, in the scene in the diner when Bruce Willis all but turns towards the audience and shouts "DON'T THINK TOO HARD ABOUT THE TIME TRAVEL STUFF, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE".

However, fact is they really were trying to focus on stuff like that and some nonsense slipped through.
My guess is they probably thought most of the audience wouldn't care/understand or just suspend disbelief, which is fair enough I suppose. Nitpicky nerds aren't a huge audience anyway, and most will probably be intrigued enough to buy it despite a semi-bad rep in this regard.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

The Comstock house was [spoiler:64525c141b]a prison/asylum where the sinners were taken for "treatment" in the Old Elizabeth reality. The people in the masks are the inmates, tortured, and brainwashed to accept the new order imposed by Old Elizabeth.[/spoiler:64525c141b]

Oh, I understood that, but why were they all warped?

 

[Tagaziel]

The Luteces killed the sentry.

[spoiler:0269b3806c]They're the ones trying to right the wrong, the notes are from them, and they're the guiding force that keeps Booker focused.[/spoiler:0269b3806c]

I wonder, why did I have no problems understanding the story?

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

How did Dewitt end up in Columbia anyway?

They are clearly from different universes (as Dewitt = Comstock, and besides, I think a city that up and floats away from the US would be noteworthy), so how did Dewitt even get there? Did he walk through a conviently placed tear?

 

[Tagaziel]

He was brought in from another reality by the Luteces, who orchestrated the whole shebang. They're the one in the boat in the beginning, after all.

[spoiler:0e984f28f5]And before you ask why he didn't remember giving Anna to Comstock: he eliminated the event from his memory or replaced it with a fake one, where both she and her mother perished in childbirth. It'd be made easier by there being absolutely no trace of Anna, save for a pinky (which can come from anything).

Even the branding wouldn't help after twenty years spent at the bottom of a bottle.[/spoiler:0e984f28f5]

 

[SuAside]

Please stop using "1999" as a justification for anything. It is a gamemode that is not available by default, and as such has no place in being used in defending the game in any way.

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/03/25/unlock-bioshock-infinites-1999-mode-early-with-the-konami-code/
Published a day before release.

And this changes what?
It's not available by default for players to play. Like common DLC bullshit, it was already embedded in the final game, yes. But needed special action to unlock (enter code or finish game) & become available. As such, I don't view it as a game mode that should be used when defending this game.

 

[PlanHex]

I wonder, why did I have no problems understanding the story?

Since you're so smart and full of smug self-satisfaction, I'd like a complete answer to all the questions I raised earlier about the twins, determinism and quantum mechanics.
Please hand it in on Monday at the latest and try to keep yourself under 400 pages. When referencing known scientific results or mathematical proofs, please put the source in a footnote.

Answers of the following sort will NOT be accepted:
[spoiler:872c08a95b]
Q: If the twins' motivation for setting things in motion were to "right the wrong" by removing Comstock from all possible universes, then why the fuck didn't they just go back and kill him at the baptism immediately?
A1: Because he had to choose to do it himself, even though that's retarded and makes no sense.
A2: Because only Elizabeth can travel backwards in time, even though that makes everything make even less sense.
A3: Because otherwise there'd be no game.
[/spoiler:872c08a95b]

 

[Ilosar]

How convenient that he just happens to forget exactly what the plot needs him to for the game to even exist in the first place.

I'm not with Sea on everything, but he has a point here.

[spoiler:7fd4ee40ce] Booker remembers a lot of his old life, including Wounded Knee and his days at Pinkerton. He can even distinctly remember the General's name and behavior, and those were also traumatic events for him. Yet he forgets he sold his daughter, despite the branding? Even when Elizabeth brings up the subject? That's one hell of a selective amnesia for the sake of the plot here.

Furthermore, how come Booker is young yet Comstock is old? Obviously they are not of the same age, thus not from the same year. The Luteces pull him out of his reality into the one where Comstock exists, I get that, but why is Comstock so much older? If they pull Booker from before 1912, how does he not recognize the fast-forward in time? I get that he's piss drunk most of time, but he still has to get out. And him saying he was ''out of the loop'' on current events doesn't exactly justify him not knowing about the giant flying city that's been going around causing trouble for twenty years, especially if he lives in New York. It would be like not knowing about WW1 or the USSR.[/spoiler:7fd4ee40ce]

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Actually, the reason why Booker doesn't know about Columbia is because Booker is from a reality where Columbia does not exist. That's the most logical reason why he does not know about the city's existence.

 

[Tagaziel]

And this changes what?
It's not available by default for players to play. Like common DLC bullshit, it was already embedded in the final game, yes. But needed special action to unlock (enter code or finish game) & become available. As such, I don't view it as a game mode that should be used when defending this game.

Terrible, I have to press keys to open an option! What next, will they expect me to type in the destination folder in custom install?

How convenient that he just happens to forget exactly what the plot needs him to for the game to even exist in the first place.

I understand you're a superman with eidetic memory, unphased by even the most terrible trauma, but please, sir, cut us lowly peons some slack.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

I never got that scene. Why would those variables influence a coin toss to that level? It's just a coin toss.

Ok, you want to know the real REAL meaning of that part?

[spoiler:eceb1bc488]It's a "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead" reference.[/spoiler:eceb1bc488]

Is it a test? Do they know for sure that everything turns out wrong whenever it hits tails, even though they couldn't possibly know that without having gone through the infinite universes where it did, which is impossible?

Yes, it's a test. They are testing how much certain things remains the same despite other changes.

Why would everything leading up to the coin toss have such an effect on it or conversely why would the coin toss affect the actions following it in any meaningful way?

The coin toss affects nothing, they are just weird that way.

[spoiler:eceb1bc488]And speaking of those two, why the hell did they bother setting things in motion by bringing in Booker anyway? What's their stake in this? Do they care if Elizabeth grows up to burn the world? Why? They don't seem like they'd care much about that, since they followed and helped a murderous racist baby-kidnapper. Did they suddenly grow a conscience for no reason? Is it because Comstock wanted to kill them? Why didn't they just run off if that was a concern? Hell, why didn't they just go back in time and stop him instead of going through all that crap to get Elizabeth to do it? Did they forget to give themselves the super awesome time-travel powers that their work gave Elizabeth? It sure didn't seem like that from the way they kept talking about things that had happened / would happen, especially since they've apparently travelled forward in time to steal technology from Rapture and travelled forwards and backwards loads of times to get kidless Bookers to come to Columbia.
Are they just doing it for teh lulz?
Am I not remembering something or remembering something wrong? Did I miss a vital audio-log?[/spoiler:eceb1bc488]

Change of heart of Robert, a voxophone mentions it.

[spoiler:eceb1bc488]"My brother has presented me with an ultimatum: if we do not send the girl back from where we brought her, he and I must part. Where he sees an empty page, I see King Lear. But he is my brother, so I shall play my part, knowing it shall all end in tears."[/spoiler:eceb1bc488]

As of why they went through all this mess it is because it's also an experiment for them, they have all the time in the world and with infinite retries they'll sooner or later succeed.

I like how people claim they're non-casual gamers, yet miss the yellow note on the Columbia map in the lighthouse, where Comstock notifies the lighthouse sentry that DeWitt will be coming through. The dead guy is the sentry who was supposed to kill DeWitt, but was done in himself.

By whom? The Luteces? Seems improbable. It's more probable IMO that he is [spoiler:eceb1bc488]just a random body they collected somewhere (maybe even a previous Booker, who knows) put there to reinforce his false memories of "bring us the girl and wipe away the debt"[/spoiler:eceb1bc488]

[spoiler:eceb1bc488] Furthermore, how come Booker is young yet Comstock is old? Obviously they are not of the same age, thus not from the same year. The Luteces pull him out of his reality into the one where Comstock exists, I get that, but why is Comstock so much older? If they pull Booker from before 1912, how does he not recognize the fast-forward in time? I get that he's piss drunk most of time, but he still has to get out. And him saying he was ''out of the loop'' on current events doesn't exactly justify him not knowing about the giant flying city that's been going around causing trouble for twenty years, especially if he lives in New York. It would be like not knowing about WW1 or the USSR.[/spoiler:eceb1bc488]

The story has its problems but come on, this is all stuff explained in the game.

[spoiler:eceb1bc488]Comstock is old because excessive use of the machine that sees in other dimensions irradiated his body, gave him cancer and made him sterile. And, as said, Booker doesn't know of Columbia because in his dimension it doesn't exists.[/spoiler:eceb1bc488]