Bioshock Infinite

sea is basically Surf Solar Lite.

sea said:
All dying means is that you restart at a checkpoint 5 seconds away from where you died, losing nothing but a few dollars.

Because enemies have hitscan weapons and bosses have massive HP pools, it becomes extremely difficult to stay alive at high difficulties. Health management is not a function of player skill but a timer on how long you can stay exposed. This does not make the game hard, only tedious, because it is still impossible to fail.

The only way dying inconveniences you is a tiny, tiny amount of wasted time and draining your cash, which means you won't be able to buy as many upgrades or resources which in turn means that you will die more for reasons that really are not in your direct control, leading to more wasted time.

This is what we call "shitty systems design."

I guess you didn't play on 1999. Or did not play, Bioshock, Bioshock 2, System Shock, and System Shock 2, which had a very similar gameplay, similar functions, and similar "issues" with death.

I DON'T LIKE THE GAME SO IT MUST BE BAD STOP LIKING GAMES I DON'T

I don't think I need to reply to that, now do I?

Booker and Elizabeth do have some nice moments, but Comstock? Comstock is just a racist caricature who wants to rule the world because he's evil. Most other players in the story are just stand-ins for ideologies and personifications of social issues, not characters in their own right.

God forbid a game set in a particular period uses the social issues of that period to deconstruct them. They're caricatures if you don't take your time to actually understand them. You can easily raise the same criticism against characters in other games, including Planescape: Torment. Hey, every character in Planescape: Torment is a stand-in for an RPG trope, personifying EDGY SUBVERSION!

It's easy to bash things. How about you try to be somewhat positive for a change.

Right. It just rips off Halo and Half-Life 2 instead, with less effective world-building and gameplay than both. Genius!

Totally. Want a medal specifically made for hipsters that don't like Bioshock Infinite?

STOP LIKING GAMES I DON'T LIKE YOU NOT PLAY MANY GAMES

SHE BAD NPC

I DON'T LIKE THE STORY STOP LIKING IT

NO PEOPLE DON'T BUY IT, IT BAD

bobbythekitten

Your problem is that you cannot fathom that some people (a lot of them) actually like the game and have no problems understanding and making sense of the story. Terrible, right? All those people that don't share your opinion and dare to post it publicly.

That must be unbearable, having to read posts from people who enjoyed Elizabeth as a character and companion, and liked the story and the themes within.

Abominable.

Here's a thought: how about, instead of ranting how bad something is, you try to be at least a little bit positive? Or at least present a moderate opinion instead of DON'T LIKE GAMES I DON'T LIKE!!111!
 
I think the game looks (and I mean LOOKS as in the visuals only) incredible, I have seen the gameplay and it doesn't appeal to me at all, and the story felt a little meh (watched a whole playthrough), the fact that it has one ending only and uninteresting gameplay just kills it for me, but I might buy the artbook, that's for sure.
 
[spoiler:9d6f61c7f9]I'll just point out something, rather than assume that it's self-evident. DeWitt's "death" in the end parallels Jesus' biblical sacrifice, redeeming his sins and preventing the suffering of millions in the versions of realities brought upon by Comstock's birth. The parallel goes further, as DeWitt defeats death and returns to life. Or he doesn't, and ends up in "heaven," depending on your personal interpretation.

In general, the Comstock/DeWitt opposition is a bit similar to the story of the conflict between the establishment and Jesus in the gospels. DeWitt is decried as the False Shepherd, goes against the officially endorsed teachings, triggers a revolution, and ultimately makes a sacrifice to save humanity... Or at least one person who is very close to him.

Why is that important? I think it illustrates the difference between two different approaches to religion. One is Comstock's religion: a warped version of Christianity, a cult of personality using religion for personal gain and political goals, introducing religious terror and atrocities justified as God's Will (Crusades, anyone?). The other is DeWitt. Ostensibly an atheist who isn't afraid of God, DeWitt unwittingly adheres to the creed of Jesus: of personal responsibility, consistency, and practicing what you preach.

Of course, I may be going too far with this interpretation, but given how much emphasis is put on religion, I had to throw my atheist two cents in (and point out that Infinite may also be deconstructing established organized religion, which kills actual spirituality).[/spoiler:9d6f61c7f9]
 
Except in SS2 you can actually die; if you don't have enough money or if you don't reach one of those machines, then its game over.

From a story-line point of view, resurrection doesn't make that much sense; why does Booker have the ability to go back in time a few seconds before he dies? Is dimensional manipulation hereditary or something? In Bioshock 1, 2 and SS2 it made sense because there were specialized machines, but in B:I it feels...odd.
 
Staying in cover and planning how to fight enemies that are accurate is skill. It requires a different approach to combat than in previous games, yes, but I never felt that death was a planned part of the experience. The damage output of the enemies and the quickly depleting shield means you have to keep moving and looking for better positions. This gets worse the more enemies the game piles on you and throws in a Handyman for good measure.

It's a challenge, yes. More of a challenge than previous titles. I don't recall a situation in either Bioshock or Bioshock 2 where the game piled twenty or so enemies on you simultaneously. I prefer the kind of combat Infinite provides, as with the shield and Liz it can pile enemies on you much more liberally. The lack of health and salts you carry with yourself doesn't bother me either, as it forces me to watch my supplies closely. The hotkeyed first aid kits and EVE syringes rendered combat easy in previous games.

As for taking down bosses with a bar... In 1999 mode Handymen, the Siren, Beasts and bosses regenerate their health almost completely if you die. That means that you can't defeat them without 5+ deaths, as you'll end up in an unwinnable position forcing a reload. Had to do it at least twice. Don't recall this

See what I mean? "Wah, someone doesn't like the game I like, instead of responding to their arguments I'm going to dismiss them as whining, thereby saving myself from actually having to respond to any of it. I'm so clever!"

Yours wasn't an argument, but a bunch of single sentence quips that boiled down to I DON'T LIKE GAME STOP LIKING IT.

No, that's over-simplifying.

Which is exactly what you're doing with Bioshock.

Not every character in Planescape is a subversion of an RPG trope. Furthermore those characters who are tend to be fully-developed characters in their own right, with fairly unique motivations and goals, as well as complicated involvement in the story. Now, this doesn't apply to every character. Annah, for example, is only a subversion as far as her appearance goes. Otherwise she is a pretty typical "hooker with a heart of gold" stock character. But, consider characters like Morte and Dak'kon - their involvement in the plot goes back many, many years before the game even starts. They really don't fit any topics for subversion and their characters are multi-layered. You only actually learn the true details of their motivations if you pay very close attention and complete their personal stories/quests.

Both are plays on the cliches associated with the RPG genre. Dak'kon is a play on the Wise, Old Fighter with Unswerving Loyalty trope, expanding into new tropes. Morte is the most troperrific of characters, as he's the Affable Scoundrel with a Dark Secret. Most of Morte's tropes are played straight, the subversion lies in the fact that he's a. dead and b. the person he backstabbed is immortal, which makes him feel guilty.

Now let's look at Infinite's supporting cast (spoilers).
  • Jeremiah Fink - wealthy industrialist who is a greedy man who likes money and being a jerk to people underneath him, also a thief and co-man.
  • Daisy Fitzroy - maid/servant girl who is framed for the murder of Lady Comstock and becomes the unwitting but later willing leader of an underground resistance movement which eventually escalates into revolution.
  • Comstock - basically Booker's alter-ego but with a beard and 30 more years, he became aware of the tears somehow and used them to convince himself he was a prophet who could divine the future. He's also a militant racist who basically wants to dominate the world, thus giving the player a reason to consider him an enemy and bad guy.
  • Lutece - basically just your standard eccentric scientist and little more than a plot device. Not really much of a character in her own right.
  • Slate - he used to work with Booker back in the day. He's a racist asshole who goes insane and wants you to kill him and his men in a shallow justification to send the player through an extended combat arena.
I would mention other characters but there really aren't any, at least none that don't die immediately after you meet them or who serve any further purpose in the story other than "convenient plot device".

How is your assessment not an oversimplification?

Now look, I'm not saying every game needs to have extremely deep, complicated or highly imaginative characters. On the contrary, some of my favorite shooters have simple characters. Half-Life 2 is a prime example of a simple story with simple characters, told well. The difference is that in Half-Life 2, character motivations are clear and unconflicted, and nobody exists "just because" someone is needed for the plot to advance, or to poorly justify the player doing some random gameplay scenario.

Here's where Infinite gets me: it has delusions of grandeur, as do many of its fans. People play it up like it's some sort of epic mindfuck arthouse meta-commentary that's the gaming event of the century. It's not. It's just a swashbuckling adventure with a dimension-hopping twist, and some poorly-conceived gameplay which is an awkward mish-mash of mechanics that do not really form together into coherent systems, and worse, they do a great deal to undermine the consistency and logic of the setting the game takes place in.

Which is something you fail to substantiate by explaining it in detail. You're constantly dismissing elements of the game with a handwave and a claim that it's "poorly done," "random," or "simple" without actually detailing how and breaking down the characters. The problem is that if you started breaking them down, you'd have to dig deeper and start working against the point you raise.

It's more fun for me to talk about things you don't like, and more useful as an intellectual exercise to explain and understand why something doesn't work than to nod your head and say "yep, that thing sure is cool."

And where did I say that you should do that? It's very easy to bash things, as you demonstrate. You just take concepts you don't personally like, dismiss them as poorly done, and expect others to accept that as a detailed critique and breaking down of each and every element of the game.

Being positive requires you to be able to see both sides of the coin, not just the bad ones.

It is interesting how different people have different impressions. MCA, for example, loves the game.

I think I'll take his opinion over yours.
 
Makta said:
Crni Vuk said:
check points

aww well, looks like I have to skip this game :|

Passing on a "awesome" game just for that? :|

Seeing how i loved the first game but never tried the 2 others.. How would you rated this compared to the first? Or the second one? Thinking of picking up all 3 soon but i'm not sure.
You are talking with me?

I have never played Infinite. So I can not rate it, neither say anything about its quality.

All I can say is, regardless if we talk about Infinite or other games, that I pretty much hate "check point" systems in shooters - with a few very very rare exceptions like Alien vs Predator 1, but that was a pure horror shooter on with very linear levels that actually dont contain much story in them.

As far as the quality of Infinite goes, I think you can trust Tagaziel. Just lower it a bit (I guess he is biased because he has such a crush on the female character).
 
Crni Vuk said:
As far as the quality of Infinite goes, I think you can trust Tagaziel. Just lower it a bit (I guess he is biased because he has such a crush on the female character).

Dude, I'm married.
 
Now you two (sea and tagaziel) really made me curious. I'l have to buy it just to see with whom I agree more:)

For now, sea wins on cool cats. Bobby the kitten is nice too but a bit too tense and serious.
 
Please stop using "1999" as a justification for anything. It is a gamemode that is not available by default, and as such has no place in being used in defending the game in any way.

CthuluIsSpy said:
Also, Comstock House. What was up with that, and why was it over so soon? That level was great! Probably one of the few times stealth is necessary (and functional).
You can shoot & vigor your way through Comstock House. Especially with area effect vigors.

I can't remember having to stealth at all? Zap the motherfuckers (and bring the right guns/ammo).

Stanislao Moulinsky said:
SuAside said:
- With your little helper by your side, you nearly never run out of ammo, health or spirit. I'm not sure if I quite like that game mechanic. The ammo can be quite scarce at time, so that's kinda trying to force you to get you to alternate your playstyles, but with Liz by your side, you've got your own personal TF2 dispenser on your back.
What level have you played on? In my Hard playthrough she threw me two items per battle at best.
And you needed more than that? :roll:

(I played on Normal & Hard)

gabahadatta said:
SuAside said:
General comments:
- Checkpoint saves are console shit and needs to die a horrible & painful death. Sure, it's simple & easy to implement, but it's lazy and retarded.
Actually, checkpoints are there not because it's "retarded console shit so let's use it" but because of many heavily scripted events and fights during game - loading game while script is in progress will break the whole event. In other words: since B:I is filled with long, complex scripted encounters, bug-free free save system would probably be almost impossible to implement.
Yes, it is annoying, but unfortunately necessary.
"The game cannot be saved during an active event". That's how other games do it. Just say you can't save now. But allow you to save anywhere else?
Hell, many more complex games -have- allowed saving during events.

Spin it as you wish, but this type of checkpoint saves is annoying as fuck.
 
Oh, you can shoot your way through Comstock house, but stealth is a viable tactic. One the few times you have a choice, actually.
 
Finished it. Liked the story and setting well enough, but the gameplay was pretty boring.

I find myself agreeing with most of the stuff brought up in this video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ2cSKBFBDQ[/youtube]
 
This thread is about its 'sequel' but I hope people like this little spoof I found on Youtube about the original.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lQYUXFLY728" frameborder="0"></iframe>
 
I like that my name gets passed around as some kind of "Everything is shit" tag when I actually bought the game and muster up enough energy to actually play it. I thought it would be known by now that I don't really enjoy circlejerking ("I like this, this is cool, omfg this is so nice!11") and simply stay quiet when I enjoy something.

But do go on. :clap:
 
Tagaziel said:
[spoiler:b6c01d1a10]I'll just point out something, rather than assume that it's self-evident. DeWitt's "death" in the end parallels Jesus' biblical sacrifice, redeeming his sins and preventing the suffering of millions in the versions of realities brought upon by Comstock's birth. The parallel goes further, as DeWitt defeats death and returns to life. Or he doesn't, and ends up in "heaven," depending on your personal interpretation.[/spoiler:b6c01d1a10]

[spoiler:b6c01d1a10]Or he is a Booker from a branch of the multiverse that never even thought of taking the baptism and therefore hasn't been erased by the drowning. Which frankly makes much more sense.[/spoiler:b6c01d1a10]

CthuluIsSpy said:
From a story-line point of view, resurrection doesn't make that much sense; why does Booker have the ability to go back in time a few seconds before he dies?

[spoiler:b6c01d1a10]It's implied that everytime he dies the Luteces take another Booker who repeats pretty much verbatim everything the last one did.[/spoiler:b6c01d1a10]
 
CthuluIsSpy said:
Everything? That doesn't seem possible.

For some reason, that comes across as more ridiculous that the revival machines.

Why not? If the variables stay largely the same the end result is also the same. You have never heard the "infinite universes" theory based on quantum physics?
 
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