Bioware Backlash

[Ausdoerrt]

Well, a LOT of games have "easy mode", and I've often seen it described in-game as "no challenge, just enjoy the story". So if the game isn't combat-focused (like a multiplayer shooter or something), it's not so outlandish an idea to give the player an option to skip a part he dislikes. I mean, puzzle/adventure games often let you skip a puzzle you can't get or don't enjoy to move on with the story, how are RPGs different?

I've also seen some Japanese games release "redux" versions with the combat completely cut out. I think the only reason the Western developers haven't tapped into that market yet is because they haven't tried.

 

[Crni Vuk]

you can and should be able to skip combat in RPGs which have a huge focus on the storyline.

The thing is, it should make sense. And that is the crux.

If you actually have to skip a large part of the combat then you should ask your self 2 things. Why do you play a game which has a large focus on combat in the first place ? And second, why is the combat so boring ?

I am not telling people what they should play. And to give another example Planescape gave you the option to solve many things with dialogues including the last fight even! But it fits the game because of the world inside the game (remember you could create some NPC in the game only by mentioning him often enough). It was an important part of the game. I mean how much of negotiations can you have with characters that are set up like the Reapers or the Deamons/main villain in Dragon Age ? Would it even make really sense if you could talk the Reapers in giving up ? That would require a different kind of enemy (see the enemy in Planescape).

skipping combat because its "dull" or "boring" should be avoided. Make good combat instead.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

skipping combat because its "dull" or "boring" should be avoided. Make good combat instead.

Same exact thing can be argued for the skip dialogue/cutscene options already present in many modern games. Yet most vocal gamers take it as a given, as a necessity even, while the mere mention of a possible "skip combat" option is taken as heresy enough to start an Internet crusade. I find it a bit silly, tbh.

 

[fedaykin]

And a number of the players they didn't lose were the people who wanted to unsubscribe, but couldn't because they hid the button in some fine print ON THE LAST DAY of the free month. And when people started posting a workaround in the forums, the threads were systematically deleted. I'm glad I didn't get on board that ship.

Any links fedaykin, that's interesting info I seem to have missed. I did catch the TOR Dancing Exploit thing .
Back to topic the whole thing reminds me of Interplay boards after release of BOS, somewhat ironic.

Google "swtor missing unsubscribe button" for various sources. I originally read about it on 4chan and thought: "nice troll, no developer would ever do such a thing". I was wrong.

 

[Sub-Human]

Same exact thing can be argued for the skip dialogue/cutscene options already present in many modern games. Yet most vocal gamers take it as a given, as a necessity even, while the mere mention of a possible "skip combat" option is taken as heresy enough to start an Internet crusade. I find it a bit silly, tbh.

That's because dialogue is bad, or even useless. In a game like Fallout, not reading through what other characters tell you leaves you ignorant on what you should do in a quest, and even unable to say something because you don't know what it refers to. In Fallout 3, you have [Intelligence] (meaning a good line, let's take this) and a marker that leads you everywhere.

Also, Crni has a point - instead of making the option of skipping combat, why don't you just allow way for diplomatic characters where you can talk your way through? It makes up for a good roleplaying experience, and you can easily skip through combat bits without losing the story or something.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I got into pc gaming late 98, before that I had a PlayStation, and a Gameboy and before that a ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64. Way back before most of you here were born I had a friend with an atari (he was very popular at school) and before that we used to go to the arcades. I've not played every game released, I missed out on a lot of games between 90 and 98 so I might of missed the crucial game but what is this skip dialogue button?

I must of missed it because I've never encountered it in any game I've played. Sure some games let you skip cutscenes not all of them and many only on the second playthrough. I've played Mass Effect around eighteen times between xbox and pc and there are plenty of cutscenes that can't be skipped. But then again cutscenes aren't really part of gameplay and if you're playing an rpg through all it's possible outcomes you probably know all the cutscenes off by heart anyway or at least after awhile. But I've never seen a game with a skip dialogue button.

Sure I've cut the voice acting off from time to time, well okay probably a lot. But I've always read the subtitles and I've always had to make a decision on which speech event I wanted to pick. You have to do that even if you don't read the text or listen to the acting as very few games let you just kill the person these days. None of which is skipping dialogue well unless you do kill the person, or pickpocket them but that's still part of gameplay, emergent gameplay even but not skipping.

As for skipping combat, sure diplomatic and stealth alternatives would be preferable but that's not the same as skipping combat. Not all combat is avoidable by other means and what people seem to be asking for is once combat is entered to be able to press an 'I win' button. The closest thing I can think of is the auto combat in JA2 between the army and militia when you haven't a character around. That combat should be skippable because it's nothing you can influence, it's a glorified cutscene that could be replaced with a after-action report and most importantly it can be lost but also doesn't automatically end the game.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Also, Crni has a point - instead of making the option of skipping combat, why don't you just allow way for diplomatic characters where you can talk your way through? It makes up for a good roleplaying experience, and you can easily skip through combat bits without losing the story or something.

You mean like in Fallout 1 and a few other old RPGs ? What a blasphemy! How dare you to suggest something like that!

 

[Ben]

Same exact thing can be argued for the skip dialogue/cutscene options already present in many modern games. Yet most vocal gamers take it as a given, as a necessity even, while the mere mention of a possible "skip combat" option is taken as heresy enough to start an Internet crusade. I find it a bit silly, tbh.

That's because dialogue is bad, or even useless. In a game like Fallout, not reading through what other characters tell you leaves you ignorant on what you should do in a quest, and even unable to say something because you don't know what it refers to. In Fallout 3, you have [Intelligence] (meaning a good line, let's take this) and a marker that leads you everywhere.

So when "Go get Johnny from the Slag Caves" magically pops up in your pip boy, without anyone giving you any direction whatsoever is preferable?

 

[Sub-Human]

So when "Go get Johnny from the Slag Caves" magically pops up in your pip boy, without anyone giving you any direction whatsoever is preferable?

Yah, you can always ask again. Where's Johnny?

 

[Arden]

So when "Go get Johnny from the Slag Caves" magically pops up in your pip boy, without anyone giving you any direction whatsoever is preferable?

No, preferable is a good dialogue leading, among other results, to a quest given to the player to look for johnny. Last time Johnny was seen he was near some landmark near a pool to the east. The PC can then move to the east, keeping his eyes peeled for landmarks, footprints, bloodstains, whatever to find the next clue leading eventually to Johnny (or not, could be a trap, a scam or a ruse to keep the PC off some other location). Or the PC could go to the next bar, down a few and return and tell a lie about how he found Johnny in the east and how he refused to come back, collect the reward and perhaps later get into trouble for lying.

Short answer: No, good questdialogue (not a single line about intelligence), choices (not to be confused with multiple lines leading to the same result), exploration (not to be confused with following an arrow for x minutes), consequences (like dying or loosing stuff) is preferable.

Even shorter: If A > B but A = S(hit) do not choose A or B, choose C wich is >A+B

 

[Ausdoerrt]

That's because dialogue is bad, or even useless.

That's my point. Crni said "don't make combat skippable, make good combat instead". I say this applies equally to dialogue - don't make the story skippable, write a good one instead!

However, there's a point where we need to realize that there's the perfect world and there's what we have. You just can't have everything, so maybe sometimes it's better to have a "skip" option, for a variety of reasons already mentioned ITT?

Though ultimately I'm not so much arguing for the "skip combat" button as I am laughing at the people who get all defensive about the mere suggestion of skipping combat when they've been skipping story for years without thinking about it.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

That's my point. Crni said "don't make combat skippable, make good combat instead". I say this applies equally to dialogue - don't make the story skippable, write a good one instead!.

Please point me to a game that has a skip dialogue button because I can't think of a single one.

 

[Sub-Human]

That's my point. Crni said "don't make combat skippable, make good combat instead". I say this applies equally to dialogue - don't make the story skippable, write a good one instead!.

Please point me to a game that has a skip dialogue button because I can't think of a single one.

How about Fallout 3, Oblivion, New Vegas? All these you can, with a single click, go on to the next dialogue line.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

How about Fallout 3, Oblivion, New Vegas? All these you can, with a single click, go on to the next dialogue line.

With a single click you can go onto the next dialogue line in Fallout, how is that skipping dialogue? How is the game meant to know when you are ready to proceed if you don't click?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Though ultimately I'm not so much arguing for the "skip combat" button as I am laughing at the people who get all defensive about the mere suggestion of skipping combat when they've been skipping story for years without thinking about it.

Probably the same people which go to forums complaining they have no clue how to move further in the game.

I know what you mean. And yeah. But I think in a good game if there is a need to either 1. Skip the "story" or 2. the combat then something is wrong with the game. Sure. Things are not always perfect. But still. I think one can at least achieve a situation where you actually dont have to really skip it unless it fits the game where a warrior will move trough the game with combat and the diplomath with dialogue.

 

[Kilus]

That's my point. Crni said "don't make combat skippable, make good combat instead". I say this applies equally to dialogue - don't make the story skippable, write a good one instead!.

Please point me to a game that has a skip dialogue button because I can't think of a single one.

Mass Effect 3. Well it's not a button, but a option.

1 and 2(and 3) have buttons to skip dialogue.

Edit: Oh wait it doesn't skip dialogue but removes player agency which is the same thing in my book.

 

[Ben]

So when "Go get Johnny from the Slag Caves" magically pops up in your pip boy, without anyone giving you any direction whatsoever is preferable?

No, preferable is a good dialogue leading, among other results, to a quest given to the player to look for johnny. Last time Johnny was seen he was near some landmark near a pool to the east. The PC can then move to the east, keeping his eyes peeled for landmarks, footprints, bloodstains, whatever to find the next clue leading eventually to Johnny (or not, could be a trap, a scam or a ruse to keep the PC off some other location). Or the PC could go to the next bar, down a few and return and tell a lie about how he found Johnny in the east and how he refused to come back, collect the reward and perhaps later get into trouble for lying.

None of which happens. No one even mentions the slag caves or where it is.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Mass Effect 3. Well it's not a button, but a option.

1 and 2(and 3) have buttons to skip dialogue.

Edit: Oh wait it doesn't skip dialogue but removes player agency which is the same thing in my book.

Mass Effect 3 not released yet so way doesn't count. ME 1&2 include an option to skip the voice acting not the same at all. Do you really expect someone who's deaf to wait for the acting to finish if it takes them half the time to read the text? Besides the interview with Jennifer Hepler was published in 2006 before Mass Effect was released, how many fully voiced rpgs were there by 2006?

Even if you do turn off the subtitles/text and skip the voice acting if the game has branching dialogue you've got to engage with it at some point to choose a branch. You can't just click on a character and skip to the end of the dialogue tree.

 

[Kilus]

Top left corner. Or Bottom left. Skip button.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

All of the Diablo games let you skip dialogue, though until 3 they only had a single page of scrolling dialogue. In D3 if you hit escape you skip the entire dialogue. Granted these are ARPGs with no dialogue choices.