Black or White: Making Moral Choices in Video Games

Ravager69 said:
Alas, the game is good, but Bioware still fails to understand moray grayness or the concept of choices&consequences.

I'm not sure if I agree here, seeing as I seem to recall a couple of good moral grayzones in DA.

Like the hungry farmers trying to kill me because of the unrightful bounty placed on my head. I play a "relativistic good" (I'm not so sure how I would define my views of ethics and morality) character, and find myself in a situation where I have to kill innocent hungry farmers. The leader admits to that he probably doesn't really care if I were guilty of my charges or not though, as he just wants to feed his family; so in a sense, I felt I had my right of slaughtering them, as they would do me, whatever the reason they might had; as I didn't play a part of the problem in their reasons.

As long as there are quests and situations placing the pc. in a place where doing A or B is wrong to some extent, I feel that the game succeed to a certain degree of portraying moral grayzones that we all perhaps could encounter. Do the ends justify the means? Do I have the right to kill this guy because he's trying to kill me, or should I just try to stop him, because I can, and try to convince him that I'm not his enemy? At least this game makes me test my own morality in action, and to a certain degree manages to show me the various effects of my actions.

I'm not sure how to add hide this text from beeing a spoiler, so if you haven't reached Redcliffe, stop reading.

Edit: Nvm, i figured it out :wink:

[spoiler:74ef958e02]
The kid that's possessed offers a plethora of things to consider, and does give the pc. reasonably relevant ways to end the turmoil of that place.

1. Do I go get the circle mages and let them solve the situation by saving the boy?
- Won't this just let the demon rampage for a longer time and thusly end up by potentially killing a lot more people?
2. Do I kill the child?
- Killing an innocent child is wrong, but is the child innocent, as he made a pact with the demon possessing him? It's still a child, so perhaps he didn't realize what might happen if he did sign the pact. Isn't it anyways the mothers fault for not giving her son to the mages circle so that he could control his "resistance" to the invading demons? But she did do that, in the form of a mage she smuggled in, so perhaps neither she or him is the causing effect of this whole situation, as both were just beeing naive? Is beeing naive an excuse though?
3. Do I sacrifice the mother to kill the demon in the child?
- Like I mentioned, is beeing naive an excuse or not? Here I decided that the mother, through her actions, had nurtured the boy, and thusly the demon, so if she gave up her life right away, many lives would be spared, and she herself would want nothing more than to die for her son, than see her son get killed.

I'm not sure what happens if I suggest to kill the child or get the mages though, so I can't comment on that. But for me, these types of choices I get to make offer interesting situations where I get to think and consider. It's perhaps a childs play for the more experienced, but it's not that bad when compared to other newly released RPG's out there.[/spoiler:74ef958e02]
 
It seems at least that Dragon Age contains alot more and better worked out "gray" areas then Fallout 3 which is already a big success in my eyes. But well not that it would be really that hard to beat Fallout 3 with this to afterall.
 
Deadman87 said:
[spoiler:5b90dac276]
The kid that's possessed offers a plethora of things to consider, and does give the pc. reasonably relevant ways to end the turmoil of that place.

1. Do I go get the circle mages and let them solve the situation by saving the boy?
- Won't this just let the demon rampage for a longer time and thusly end up by potentially killing a lot more people?
2. Do I kill the child?
- Killing an innocent child is wrong, but is the child innocent, as he made a pact with the demon possessing him? It's still a child, so perhaps he didn't realize what might happen if he did sign the pact. Isn't it anyways the mothers fault for not giving her son to the mages circle so that he could control his "resistance" to the invading demons? But she did do that, in the form of a mage she smuggled in, so perhaps neither she or him is the causing effect of this whole situation, as both were just beeing naive? Is beeing naive an excuse though?
3. Do I sacrifice the mother to kill the demon in the child?
- Like I mentioned, is beeing naive an excuse or not? Here I decided that the mother, through her actions, had nurtured the boy, and thusly the demon, so if she gave up her life right away, many lives would be spared, and she herself would want nothing more than to die for her son, than see her son get killed.

I'm not sure what happens if I suggest to kill the child or get the mages though, so I can't comment on that. But for me, these types of choices I get to make offer interesting situations where I get to think and consider. It's perhaps a childs play for the more experienced, but it's not that bad when compared to other newly released RPG's out there.[/spoiler:5b90dac276]

There's a reason this theoretically awesome quest doesn't work.

[spoiler:5b90dac276]There are no negative consequences to going to the mage tower, and faffing about as long as you like. The kid's locked up upstairs and can't harm anyone anymore.

If only they'd fixed that, rather than make it the obvious best option, this would be awesome morally gray. Right now it's just well-written and partially morally gray, especially in option 2 and 3, but it doesn't follow through.

I liked the fact that the game throws the fate of the blood mage traitor at your feet afterwards. That actually made me think, despite how ridiculous it is that *I* get to decide, on whether or not he deserves to die. If a game makes me pause like that, it did its job.[/spoiler:5b90dac276]
 
Edmond Dantès said:
Oh dear, game morality. I wrote a lengthy piece on that topic a while back, mainly because I got vastly annoyed at how games handle morality, partly because I wanted to see whether there was any interest on a game 'developer' (meaning, lots of enthusiasts, a few actual dev's) forum for fleshing out morality. It turned into a nice debate, and one thing is, people might not actually want to be bothered by moral dilemma's in their games. Anyway, I don't want to cramp the forums style here so, if anyone wants to read some stuff on morality, click the spoiler. I just fished it out of the .doc file that I wrote it in, perhaps a year ago or so, but it might still be interesting.

(oh you can ignore the alternative I give; at the time I kinda felt obliged to try and deliver something 'better' or otherwise I'd only be complaining. I'm quite happy to only complain in fact.)

[spoiler:7808e9cbe9]On the Genealogy of Game Morality – A call for more than Good and Evil

(again, this topic is far too long, I apologize in advance)

Some games have far too long stuck to a system of dualism between good and evil.

1.1. Locating the phenomenon
Games that bother with morality usually fulfil this function with a dualistic system of good and evil. On the one side stands a bastion of selflessness, helpful, kind, and generally the poor bastard who gets screwed over when it comes to cool looking skills in the end. And on the other side stands the pure baby-eating evil, egoistic, lying, deceitful, and backstabbing shady character clad in black and red. For some games, this is entirely enough. For other games, the implications of this system inherently create limitations that have far too long restricted their social aspects to an unnecessary shallow level.

1.2. Good or evil is all you get, but that's fine
Bioshock is a good example of a game that doesn't really need more refined morality. Yes, the limitation to only harvest or save little sisters can be deplored, but there isn't much that can be done with this anyway in my opinion. It is a linear game and a shooter, these generally suffice with a clear-cut distinction between good and evil. Other examples include the recent Infamous, or games that don't give you any choice as to what you do, and whatever other game which doesn't have much text or doesn't require you to interact with other NPC's. Star Wars games, because of their lore, also require duality.

1.3. I judge thee and thy actions, none shall change my verdict
Baldur's Gate type games, Neverwinter Nights, Fallout series, Mass Effect: these kinds of games would greatly benefit from a more refined morality system. Although they all have their own touches to it, and they give morality a different name each, all of them go with the basic dichotomy between good and evil. Baldur's Gate and NWN call it reputation, Fallout calls it karma, and Mass Effect has Paragon and Renegade. The most important common aspect between these games is that they make morality known to the player; they judge him by a statistic.

1.4. Non-dualistic ways of solving morality in games
The dualistic version is certainly not the only one available in game morality. A very often used way to judge the player is through character interaction, so that the game-world judges the character in a more refined way and dependant on the specific person you interact with. Deus Ex judged the player for his ruthlessness (in the first part at least), Gothic had you form alliances and thus create enemies; The Witcher is another good example of a game that doesn't rely on black and white choices and judgements. Some of the games under 1.3, such as Mass Effect, also use this method in combination with a dualistic system to create a more fleshed out world. The problem of this non-dualistic approach lies in its complexity and thus limitation to a relatively small world and a few main characters. Also, this approach usually isn't very flexible and is limited to only a few choices or 2-3 ways of playing a game. Its biggest downfall is simply that it isn't a system nor has been systematically used.

2. Implications and inherent limitations of dualistic morality
Being the nature of dualism, all you'll end up with will be good and evil actions. Neutrality, while often mentioned, basically has no importance in a system governed by dualism. The deeper implications of dualism are much more interesting than neutrality anyway, so let us move on to that.

By communicating the moral value of the player's actions to the player, the game judges the actions of the player as if there was an omniscient God-like authority, deciding whether your actions were good, evil, or not significant enough to register on the moral-o-meter. Morality thus is no longer in the players' hands. He cannot decide that an action was good, evil, or a necessary evil or anything else. He'll be deemed evil or good regardless of his own judgement, and because of the general usage of the morality statistic for other mechanics, the entire world will make it noticeable to the player, for example through bartering, conversations, questlines, and often skills. By giving this morality statistic such high importance, it is pretty much required for such a game to communicate the God-like judgement to the player. And so as not to confuse the player as to whether he is doing right or wrong with his potential doings, most actions of dual morality have little depth to them, and one cannot surprise a player by having an unintended evil be the outcome of an at first good action. The route to good or evil is crystal clear. As a consequence, perhaps unintended, the way people play such a game often becomes governed by this statistic, and they play pure good or pure evil.

True, you can ignore the statistic and play through such a game in any way. But the constant reminder by the entire world, the often glaring red or blue numbers of your moral-o-meter, and the remarks of NPC's in conversations will constantly remember you what you are according to the game. Story, quests, other NPC's and companions; all are morally impoverished since duality requires them to visibly go for either side. At most, they can switch sides. What you end up with is a simplified and impoverished moral and social world, dependent on a morality system clearly visible to the player.

3. The Dilemma of Alternatives and unpleasant surprises
The inherent problem behind systemizing morality is the fact that the importance attributed to such a system by the rest of the game pretty much makes it necessary to communicate judgement to the player so that he knows what effects his future choices will have.

If you want to have an actual system of morality, not just isolated events of interaction as the games under 1.4 do, you are basically required to communicate the judgement statistics to the player. And once again the entire circle starts. You give names to certain ways of playing, you communicate this to the player, and then the player aims to achieve one of these ways of playing fully, yet again impoverishing many elements of a game. A system of morality basically shoots itself in the foot by disabling challenging moral situations, because ultimately, morally grey situations are decided by people and not by a mechanic. Neither can you really surprise a player with an outcome of his actions. He'd be frustrated by suddenly being deemed treacherous, and he'd reload and get the intended outcome. This is also why games usually never have consequences that happen far in the future. The invested time makes it unattractive to load a possibly not even existing save-game from before the event in question. Consequences have to be limited, direct and clear, and there can be usually only two or at most three ways of solving a problem.

4.1. An alternative: People and Types of Morality
Therefore, instead of focusing on morality, I would like to vouch for a better simulation of people themselves and their ways of judging other people. This is already being used partly in many of the games under 1.3., but has never been developed into an actual mechanic governing a morality system. Ideally, judgement of any kind would not have to be communicated to the player through statistics but only through the world itself, while underlying mechanics and statistics can hum away in the background doing their job. But I also believe that, even in communicating any statistics, the following system would still be a one-uppance on the traditional dualism.

What I would like to see realised would be a system wherein each NPC in the world is attributed degrees of a few defining characteristics that decide their outlook on the world and the actions of other people, mainly you. The old D&D system already did something in the manner through lawful and chaotic combined with dualistic morality, but this is simply too...simple.

In contrast, imagine a character who is defined as Law-abiding (20/100), Pious (80/100), Greedy (80/100), Helpful (40/100), Utilitarian (70/100), Trustworthy (30/100) and you'd have the background statistics for a crooked money-grubbing bishop who values his faith as much as his coin, who is somewhat reluctant to help and who believes that the ends justify the means in most cases. As long as you donate to him, or the church, or wherever donations end up with this character, it wouldn't really matter much to him what crimes you commit. As long as you pay him well, you might find him to be trustworthy, but this relationship depends entirely on coin. Obviously, you should be weary of blackmail.

These statistics all revolve around dichotomies themselves, but the combination of all of them make up for a far more precise approximation than traditional systems I believe. The specific statistics of main importance still have to be worked out closer and the following list is of a highly preliminary character.

Law-abiding - Law-breaking
Honest - Deceitful
Generous/selfless - Greedy/Egoistic
Pious - Impious (dependent on specific faiths of course)
Helpful - Unhelpful
Trustworthy - Treacherous
Deontologist (actions themselves have to be 'good') - Consequential/Utilitarian (the ends justify the means)
Grateful - Unappreciative

As said, this is preliminary and more a suggestion than a set system. The biggest problem of these characteristics is that they don't exist on their own and are in fact interconnected. For example, to determine whether a character would betray you, multiple of these statistics would have to be used. If this character had previously been rescued by you and he was grateful, this would be a strong deterrent. On the other hand, if he doesn't care about such things, perhaps money can satisfy his loyalty. Percentages should be weighted off against one another to decide whether the final outcome ends in betrayal.

Now, for the player character, the standard way of starting out would be with all statistics at 50/100. Another way of determining starting statistics could be through a common set of choices regarding hypothetical situations, a system which in Morrowind was used to decide your character class. Any choice the player makes would change these statistics incrementally. The problem which remains now is how the world perceives the player character. As with your own view of people in the world, it would be unrealistic if everyone else had a satellite connection to your centre of morality, making you an obvious give-away.
[/spoiler:7808e9cbe9]

That was a great post :clap:

I hadn't heard what an "deontologist" was before reading that, so your post helped me in my quest of fleshing out an explanation for my own inherent morality.

Brother None said:
Deadman87 said:
[spoiler:7808e9cbe9] The kid that's possessed offers a plethora of things to consider, and does give the pc. reasonably relevant ways to end the turmoil of that place. 1. Do I go get the circle mages and let them solve the situation by saving the boy? - Won't this just let the demon rampage for a longer time and thusly end up by potentially killing a lot more people? 2. Do I kill the child? - Killing an innocent child is wrong, but is the child innocent, as he made a pact with the demon possessing him? It's still a child, so perhaps he didn't realize what might happen if he did sign the pact. Isn't it anyways the mothers fault for not giving her son to the mages circle so that he could control his "resistance" to the invading demons? But she did do that, in the form of a mage she smuggled in, so perhaps neither she or him is the causing effect of this whole situation, as both were just beeing naive? Is beeing naive an excuse though? 3. Do I sacrifice the mother to kill the demon in the child? - Like I mentioned, is beeing naive an excuse or not? Here I decided that the mother, through her actions, had nurtured the boy, and thusly the demon, so if she gave up her life right away, many lives would be spared, and she herself would want nothing more than to die for her son, than see her son get killed. I'm not sure what happens if I suggest to kill the child or get the mages though, so I can't comment on that. But for me, these types of choices I get to make offer interesting situations where I get to think and consider. It's perhaps a childs play for the more experienced, but it's not that bad when compared to other newly released RPG's out there.[/spoiler:7808e9cbe9]
There's a reason this theoretically awesome quest doesn't work. [spoiler:7808e9cbe9]There are no negative consequences to going to the mage tower, and faffing about as long as you like. The kid's locked up upstairs and can't harm anyone anymore. If only they'd fixed that, rather than make it the obvious best option, this would be awesome morally gray. Right now it's just well-written and partially morally gray, especially in option 2 and 3, but it doesn't follow through. I liked the fact that the game throws the fate of the blood mage traitor at your feet afterwards. That actually made me think, despite how ridiculous it is that *I* get to decide, on whether or not he deserves to die. If a game makes me pause like that, it did its job.[/spoiler:7808e9cbe9]

[spoiler:7808e9cbe9] I honestly thought a dark and forboding consequence would come out of the first option, so I guess I overdramatized the 'would be' event behind door number one. But the dark and forboding part is what I expected would happen, so I guess the game, unknowingly or not, lead me into deciding between one of the good-bad solutions anyway.

It does suck that the quest designer(s) didn't figure (bother) out a way to get the player bitten in the ass if he did trip about whilst a demon ran rampant. How were I supposed to know that the demon was incapable of going through a locked door or whatever. Lmao. Capable of raising an entire army of the undead, but has little to say in the presence of the mighty locked door. I don't know, perhaps there was a good reason, but it still feels a bit mediocre; someting to be expected from games like fallout 3.

But like you say, if a game does get you to pause and think nowadays, it's doing it's job.[/spoiler:7808e9cbe9]
 
I would favor a reputation system over an abstract moral standing system.

  • Divide player actions into two groups: global and local.
    Global actions are knowable to almost all of the npcs in the gameworld (perhaps with a time-delay to simulate news spreading). These would be actions like saving the king's life or slaying the dragon threatening the northern lands.

    Local actions would be those which wouldn't ever make the nightly news, so to speak, but which would matter to the people involved. Fixng a village's well, for instance, or retrieving a stolen item for someone.

  • Assign every npc to at least one social circle - a group who could be expected to largely share opinions about people and actions.

    Performing an action toward an npc that he/she can be expected to look on favorably raises your reputation with that npc plus their social circle.

    Everyone else in the gameworld has no reaction to this local action.

Misteryo
 
The ambiguous morality in Avernum 6 is very well done...despite the lack of psycho 3D graphics failing to trick the player into believing Avernum is real. Go figure.
 
I never played any of the Spiderweb games partly because they're ugly as hell, not in terms of 3D graphics and whatnot but in terms of art direction.
 
Ausir said:
I never played any of the Spiderweb games partly because they're ugly as hell, not in terms of 3D graphics and whatnot but in terms of art direction.
I feel no need to differ with you on that point. :)

Still, since you're a cRPG fan, you should make an effort to overcome your visceral reaction to the graphics and find out why so many people like Spiderweb games. The graphics are the absolute worst thing about them, so it can only get better from there. :wink:
 
This brings me to the point... why the fuck there are no better graphics. If the games really have so many fans, shouldn't it be possible to get some good graphic artists together?
 
Crni Vuk said:
I dont think it has that much to do with design.

A game can have a very well designed quests and story and still just deliver only the typical "fantasy" good vs. evil cliche. I enjoy quite a lot of Bioware games for what they are "good" games. But they definetly do only touch the surface when it comes to a real ethic or moral chalange.

I am not a that big fan of "karma-o-meters" in games as usualy most games tend to simplify it a lot even Fallout (not talking about FINO 3)

Well, I don't see anything wrong about the game being b&w, even despite the fact that moral grayness has been trendy recently. For me it's not the moral choice itself that's important, but whether the game follows through on it. The discussion about the specific Dragon Age quest is a good example, because, while it offers a seemingly deep choice, the loophole of no-consequences ends up ruining what could be a difficult choice. (and TBH even if you kill the mom or the kid, there's not much consequence other than lowering some party members' approval rating)

I'd rather have a plain b&w choice, but then also consequences to deal with.
 
Ausdoerrt said:
I'd rather have a plain b&w choice, but then also consequences to deal with.

Not so sure about this one, as I feel you'll end up with:

A) Do the "right" thing, get praise and a reward.
-A cutscene of the village getting saved from the baddie.
-People smile when you right click them, and say stuff like: "I wanna be like you when I grow up blah blah!".
-Everyone in the village gives you a discount on their wares.

B) Do the "wrong" thing, get scolded (and/ or praise from a shady character), and a reward.
-A cutscene of the village burning down.
-Everyone is dead, except for the shady character who say: "You bad sonofabitch, I like your style!"

You end up with two distinct different consequences, but it's oh so predictable. So predictable it makes me bored and frustrated just thinking about it. Exactly how would one go about making a good b&w consequence scenario? Because with b&w choices, you *know* what you'll end up with.

I'd much rather go for the "gray" choices, as the consequences might differ and surprise (at least have the potential of doing so).
 
Well, that's not really my point. Naturally, gray choices can be made more diverse. My point is that poor implementation of consequences - like offering no drawbacks on certain decisions = makes all the gray writing pretty useless.
 
Ausdoerrt said:
Crni Vuk said:
I dont think it has that much to do with design.

A game can have a very well designed quests and story and still just deliver only the typical "fantasy" good vs. evil cliche. I enjoy quite a lot of Bioware games for what they are "good" games. But they definetly do only touch the surface when it comes to a real ethic or moral chalange.

I am not a that big fan of "karma-o-meters" in games as usualy most games tend to simplify it a lot even Fallout (not talking about FINO 3)

Well, I don't see anything wrong about the game being b&w, even despite the fact that moral grayness has been trendy recently. For me it's not the moral choice itself that's important, but whether the game follows through on it. The discussion about the specific Dragon Age quest is a good example, because, while it offers a seemingly deep choice, the loophole of no-consequences ends up ruining what could be a difficult choice. (and TBH even if you kill the mom or the kid, there's not much consequence other than lowering some party members' approval rating)

I'd rather have a plain b&w choice, but then also consequences to deal with.
As I said. Me neither. If a setting is well done and supports that I do enjoy a lot "Black" & "White" settings.

I would not want to see a Star Wars game made only in gray decisions the setting alone needs this kind of light jedi knights against the evil sith or dark jedis. If you get here the one or other gray aspects in the story its just a plus. Not a necessary feature.

But if we are thinking about a settting like Fallout was originaly Its actualy the other way and black and white decisions should be more or less the plus and feature while most other decisions should for the fun of it be more in other areas. How to achieve that is of course a different question.

Thing is just that I actualy crave such games but you almost get no one. Its 90% of the time a extremly simple setting. No diverstity. Sadly. And that has really less to do with design choices quite a lot of games have good design.
 
Ausdoerrt said:
Well, that's not really my point. Naturally, gray choices can be made more diverse. My point is that poor implementation of consequences - like offering no drawbacks on certain decisions = makes all the gray writing pretty useless.

I completely agree. I was just under the impression that you would rather see black & white scenarios featuring big (but predictable) changes (fallout 3) than the DA brand of choice and consequence; even though it might seem they try to chew more than they can swallow.
 
Crni Vuk said:
Thing is just that I actualy crave such games but you almost get no one. Its 90% of the time a extremly simple setting. No diverstity. Sadly. And that has really less to do with design choices quite a lot of games have good design.

Well, that's a different issue. And while I do agree that it'd be nice to see more of those, trying to create complex settings with decisions at the expense of detailed consequences system is doing things backwards, as in that DA example in my prev. post.
 
Deadman87 said:
[spoiler:7322f183dc] I honestly thought a dark and forboding consequence would come out of the first option, so I guess I overdramatized the 'would be' event behind door number one. But the dark and forboding part is what I expected would happen, so I guess the game, unknowingly or not, lead me into deciding between one of the good-bad solutions anyway.

It does suck that the quest designer(s) didn't figure (bother) out a way to get the player bitten in the ass if he did trip about whilst a demon ran rampant. How were I supposed to know that the demon was incapable of going through a locked door or whatever. Lmao. Capable of raising an entire army of the undead, but has little to say in the presence of the mighty locked door. I don't know, perhaps there was a good reason, but it still feels a bit mediocre; someting to be expected from games like fallout 3.

But like you say, if a game does get you to pause and think nowadays, it's doing it's job.[/spoiler:7322f183dc]

[spoiler:7322f183dc]Well, that's typical of BioWare and a lot of recent RPG designers. They like to imply a lot and then just assume the player will act on it. Experienced cRPG players will see through it and simply take their time, even on missions that say "you must hurry" a gerbillion times.

It's also not explained why he fled upstairs or why he just stays there with only a handful of knights downstairs to stop him. It's fairly stupid.[/spoiler:7322f183dc]

Lexx said:
This brings me to the point... why the fuck there are no better graphics. If the games really have so many fans, shouldn't it be possible to get some good graphic artists together?

Yes. Spiderweb sells a couple thousand of each of his titles. He uses this money to pay the wages of his company (three employers, IIRC).

But the whole reusing of assets is a part of the company philosophy that I - personally - agree very strongly with, and feel is something that would help the game industry innovate in AI and design rather than primarily in graphics. Here:

GB: Spiderweb's new releases typically use a lot of previously released assets (engines, animations, etc.). Why?

Jeff: Survival. Time is the most limited resource we have. Just producing the material we do stretches us to the limit. That is why, for each game, I only replace the worst third of the graphics. We don't have the time or money to replace everything every game, and I think that, if we did, it would be phenomenally wasteful.

I think another good question is why other games companies don't reuse their assets. Making games has become very time-consuming and expensive at all levels. A lot of the reason for this, I feel, is that every time a game is finished, everything gets thrown into the trash. What a waste! I honestly don't think anyone cares if they saw the orc model in another game a year before.

Nobody smart writes their own engine anymore. They license something like the Unreal engine instead. I bet, someday, people won't bother to make their dragons from scratch either. Not when they can rent the standard dragon, tweak it a bit to make it distinctive, and save themselves a ton of work.
 
Deadman87 said:
I recall there beeing this one guy in bethesda (quest designer or something) that went against the moral restrictiveness the company put forth (like how a npc can NEVER lie to the pc.), and how he got fired for doing so (though he didn't really say that in his departing post, but one can put the puzzle together).

That doesn't really make sense, considering the Overseer can deceive the player. [spoiler:13114c426c]I'm not sure if it's a direct lie or not, but he does lead you to believe that he'll have a nice long chat with you if you just surrender and hand over your weapons. At which point he says, "Thanks, that makes this easier!" and then proceeds to use your own gun to shoot you.[/spoiler:13114c426c]
 
Brother None said:
I think another good question is why other games companies don't reuse their assets. Making games has become very time-consuming and expensive at all levels. A lot of the reason for this, I feel, is that every time a game is finished, everything gets thrown into the trash. What a waste! I honestly don't think anyone cares if they saw the orc model in another game a year before.

that's a really good thought, but I only partly agree. yes, content is a lot more important than graphics. but I actually would mind seeing the same orc model in another game a year later, especially if it's from another company. that would just lend even more to the feeling that games become streamlined and mass-produced.

but re-using parts of the graphics for your sequel and putting most of your time and money on actual content is great. all the Infinity Engine games are a perfect example of this. a lot of graphics were re-used and all used the same engine - yet each game had its own look and feel and you can easily tell them apart.
 
I think some people get it backwards. Morality should not be a stand alone subject, since it has a lot to do with perception.

I want realistic situations and issues. Real world people do things for their own selfish reasons, emotional needs and ideologies. In order for a RPG and its characters to feel authentic and real, they need their own motivations and desires. I.E. A girl just stabbed me in the back when I tried to double cross both sides in weapons deal (random scenario, don't think too much into it), but when I tried to hunt her down to get revenge, I found out her kid/lover/companion was kidnapped by a third party that wanted to cash in on my deal. Meanwhile I am getting hounded by the first 2 groups of criminals and say the authorities because I was suppose to turn both of them in, play the good guy, and get a pay off. What do I do? Save her? Save myself? Expose the the third party to the first 2 groups + authorities? etc.

Characters should have their own motivations and needs to to fulfilled. If you, the PC happen to be able to fulfill it, you can be good or bad, depending on the situation. You should also be able to cover up your wrong doings(if you want to be a good guy), like people try to do in real life. You should also be able to get found out, just like real life.

Blah.., I am getting long winded, another time.
 
Brother None said:
I think another good question is why other games companies don't reuse their assets. Making games has become very time-consuming and expensive at all levels. A lot of the reason for this, I feel, is that every time a game is finished, everything gets thrown into the trash. What a waste! I honestly don't think anyone cares if they saw the orc model in another game a year before.
Actually I think that's a good idea but the trick is to use the biggest advantage 3D graphics have over 2D graphics, modularity. If your models are modular then by having two different designs for each major body part, variety increases exponentially. I think that it would create more internal visual variety, even if it's less diverse across the market. I also believe that it'll be increasingly possible as improvements in graphics continue to become decreasingly noticeable.

That said, I don't that that every game should use such graphic packs, I love games with great art style, it's just that many don't have that.
 
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