Boy, 8, fatally shoots self with Uzi at gun show

[TheRatKing]

spoiler 1: most hunting rifles are far more powerful than "fucking assault rifles".

This may be true, but aren't automatic rifles more dangerous than hunting rifles? A gun that can fire bursts are much more prone to surprise you with recoil, etc. Even though hunting rifles are more powerful, it's pretty hard to shoot yourself with one.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

spoiler 1: most hunting rifles are far more powerful than "fucking assault rifles".

This may be true, but aren't automatic rifles more dangerous than hunting rifles? A gun that can fire bursts are much more prone to surprise you with recoil, etc. Even though hunting rifles are more powerful, it's pretty hard to shoot yourself with one.

The only thing that determines the danger of a fire arm is the person using it. Auto fire is terribly wasteful and the method of "spray and pray" is not the best route if your goal is to take as many people with you as possible. The M16A2 that the Army and Marines use in combat is only three round burst and single fire.

There was an article I read a cop wrote about this, he compared different shootings and how he wished all school shooters would be using full auto weapons as the death counts tends to be much lower compared to the shooters who use careful well places shots from semi auto weapons. I will attempt to find the article but it has been a while.

Anyways to prove my point on the accuracy I will use Virgina Tech.

Seung-Hui Cho killed 32 people and injured 22 using only a Glock 19, Walther P22 and amazing accuracy.

No fancy automatic rifles, the deadliest shooting committed by a single gunman in the history of the United States was carried out with two hand guns.

 

[SuAside]

it aint amazing accuracy when you've got a few hundred students running away from you, completely defenseless, tbfh.

and Rat, shooting yourself with any RIFLE is hard.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

it aint amazing accuracy when you've got a few hundred students running away from you, completely defenseless, tbfh.

and Rat, shooting yourself with any RIFLE is hard.

Well at least he was aiming

My point still stands actually aiming with semi auto will always win over spray and pray with a full auto.

 

[ceacar99]

on the note of automatic fire.... the m16a2 or a4 may have three round burst capibility but at least marines are tought that they will never fire their weapons on that burst automatic mode. lol i remember shooting and because my trigger was worn it was a hair trigger but a few times it didnt grip right and would fire off 2 rounds instead of one. even though the m16's recoil is almost "nonexistant" the recoil off the first round was more then enough that at 200 yards the second round never hit anywhere on a target about 3 times as big as a person....

automatic fire is good for conditions within 30-40m and even then you dont really get to hit what you intend to. thats why once again marines shoot single fire only.

anyway, if your thinking about thugish shootouts and whatnot, legendary western gunmen like wyat urp swore that taking a moment to make sure your bullet goes on target is FAR more important then who can put out the first shot.

spoiler 1: most hunting rifles are far more powerful than "fucking assault rifles".

true, assault rifles are rifled automatic weapons that boast a cartridge in between full rifle cartridges(such as 7.62mm nato or "8mm mouser") and pistol cartidges(such as 9mm parabellum or .45 acp). in that way a nice .303 hunting rifle is a hell of a lot more powerful then any true assault rifle, even the ak47. this is intentional because the assault rifle is supposed to be a mutant bastard child born of the forbidden love between battle rifles and sub machineguns.

spoiler 2: a semi-automatic AR15/M16/M4 is not an "assault rifle". it's a sporting rifle.

um.... the m16a1, m16a3 and the m4a1 models all boast full automatic capibility with a cartridge in between full rifle cartridges and pistol. they also have very erganomic designs that allow ease and free function in and out of the shoulder(things such as a pistol grip). how in the heck are they not assault rifles? now you could argue that the m16a2, m16a4 and the m4 models are not assault rifles becuase they are limited by burst automatic but i think that'd be a stupid arguement. they have all the assault rifle's features but they have a stop in the automatic fire to prevent a soldier from going haywire and wasting all his rounds.

spoiler 3: most small caliber handguns are actually more dangerous than the ridiculously big ones.

i'd like to see that backed up.... really the best way to say this is.... situational....

spoiler 4: a .50 caliber rifle has in the history of the USA never been used in ANY violent crime.

well..... i seem to remember a magazine article about a guy who shot some other guy with a .50 caliber muzzleloading rifle, but i dont think thats what your talking about, lol.

Most stuff that is utterly unneccessary is primarily used as a penis enlargement. Be it huge cars or huge guns. You can deny this, but it's still true.

i dunno.... big guns are useful.... you dont even need to hit someone with a rifle chambered in .50 bmg, you just have to get close. even a near miss can hurt and possibly break a bone.

 

[SuAside]

Well at least he was aiming

My point still stands actually aiming with semi auto will always win over spray and pray with a full auto.

most of the time, sure, but room clearing? doubt it buddy.

if full auto was really completely useless, one would wonder why all our armies are equiped with weapons that have full auto capability and pathetic recoil. if one shot was really the way to go, we'd all be equiped with FALs.

also don't underestimate the power of full auto suppressive fire in CQB...

on the note of automatic fire.... the m16a2 or a4 may have three round burst capibility but at least marines are tought that they will never fire their weapons on that burst automatic mode. lol i remember shooting and because my trigger was worn it was a hair trigger but a few times it didnt grip right and would fire off 2 rounds instead of one. even though the m16's recoil is almost "nonexistant" the recoil off the first round was more then enough that at 200 yards the second round never hit anywhere on a target about 3 times as big as a person....

automatic fire is good for conditions within 30-40m and even then you dont really get to hit what you intend to. thats why once again marines shoot single fire only.

do note that 3 round burst was brought into existance for use by ill-trained soldiers (often conscripts) who would otherwise be tempted to dumpfire their weapon of full automatic and run out of ammo seconds into combat.

"8mm mouser"

Mauser.

also, the term you're looking for is intermediate cartridge.

um.... the m16a1, m16a3 and the m4a1 models all boast full automatic capibility with a cartridge in between full rifle cartridges and pistol. they also have very erganomic designs that allow ease and free function in and out of the shoulder(things such as a pistol grip). how in the heck are they not assault rifles? now you could argue that the m16a2, m16a4 and the m4 models are not assault rifles becuase they are limited by burst automatic but i think that'd be a stupid arguement. they have all the assault rifle's features but they have a stop in the automatic fire to prevent a soldier from going haywire and wasting all his rounds.

euhm, hello kiddo, what part of semi-automatic don't you understand?

it's not because it looks like an evil black rifle that it is an assault rifle... an AR15 (which created the M16 and M4 offspring) are perfectly good range rifle. they're very accurate and fit perfectly in semi-auto competition. those are sporting rifles, even if they share traits with assault rifles.

having a pistolgrip does not make them evil. also the premise that pistolgrips were created to shoot better from the hip is laughable...

i'd like to see that backed up.... really the best way to say this is.... situational....

not saying that they're less effective. rather saying that they're often ill-designed to be abused.

i'd like you try to go Cho/VTech on campus with a .460 S&W. you'll be crying from a sore wrist before you kill 6 guys.

well..... i seem to remember a magazine article about a guy who shot some other guy with a .50 caliber muzzleloading rifle, but i dont think thats what your talking about, lol.

you know damn well i was talking about .50 BMG, not black powder.

.50 BMG is being publicized at the moment for the ability of shooting down Boeing 737 airplanes...

Most stuff that is utterly unneccessary is primarily used as a penis enlargement. Be it huge cars or huge guns. You can deny this, but it's still true.

i dunno.... big guns are useful.... you dont even need to hit someone with a rifle chambered in .50 bmg, you just have to get close. even a near miss can hurt and possibly break a bone.

the size of a gun has nothing to do with penis enlargement really.

plenty of people do buy guns for that purpose though, i wont deny that, but size is hardly a factor.

but can't imagine people doing 1.5km marksmanship contests with a .22LR

 

[ceacar99]

if full auto was really completely useless, one would wonder why all our armies are equiped with weapons that have full auto capability and pathetic recoil. if one shot was really the way to go, we'd all be equiped with FALs.

also don't underestimate the power of full auto suppressive fire in CQB...

hrmm... the only thing that we got along those lines that can be used comfortably in room clearing is a m249. the m16a4 and the m4 both are semi automatic and burst fire firearms. now i suppose that the m240 could be used to do that as well but its more bulky then the 249 and a bit heavy....

as i said marines at least shoot single fire only. doesnt mean that in room clearing they dont pull the trigger over and over really fast, but it means they have easier control over their fire.... however your right, a lot of armies operate in qcb with that concept. weapons like the uzi and mp5 are excellent examples of that mentality....

do note that 3 round burst was brought into existance for use by ill-trained soldiers (often conscripts) who would otherwise be tempted to dumpfire their weapon of full automatic and run out of ammo seconds into combat.

after the vietnam war ended and we returned to a professional army as opposed to a conscript army we did not adopt the m16a3 on the basis that it is full automatic. i honestly dont know why they even bother with the burst automatic in the m16a4 variant but the fact is that anything but single fire is not the preferred mode in any situation. combat marksmanship(done at a range of 25 to 100m) doesnt train with it, they train with rapid trigger pulls to create "controlled pairs", "hammer pairs" and "failure exercises", but never in full automatic because the weapon takes control of the situation and can get ahead of you. in other words the barrel may not be where you want it when the next round goes off.

euhm, hello kiddo, what part of semi-automatic don't you understand?

it's not because it looks like an evil black rifle that it is an assault rifle... an AR15 (which created the M16 and M4 offspring) are perfectly good range rifle. they're very accurate and fit perfectly in semi-auto competition. those are sporting rifles, even if they share traits with assault rifles.

having a pistolgrip does not make them evil. also the premise that pistolgrips were created to shoot better from the hip is laughable...

when did i mention the ar-15? i know you did but i wanted to clarify that the m16 family, the MILITARY side of the game are assault rifles. really the only difference in a m16a3 and m16a4 trigger mechanism is that one doesn't have the addition of a burst cam.... im not even sure if an ar-15 has an automatic sear in it....

not saying that they're less effective. rather saying that they're often ill-designed to be abused.

i'd like you try to go Cho/VTech on campus with a .460 S&W. you'll be crying from a sore wrist before you kill 6 guys. Smile

exactly, right weapon for the job. just like our m16 is made with a smaller round then something like 7.62 russian because it is easier to get accurate repeat shots out which makes the big difference in qcb. in a close quarters operation something like a m14 in 7.62 nato for example doesnt even compete.

btw thanks for correcting my spelling on mauser, i believe that my poor spelling is well on its way to becoming legend....

 

[SuAside]

hrmm... the only thing that we got along those lines that can be used comfortably in room clearing is a m249. the m16a4 and the m4 both are semi automatic and burst fire firearms. now i suppose that the m240 could be used to do that as well but its more bulky then the 249 and a bit heavy....

as i said marines at least shoot single fire only. doesnt mean that in room clearing they dont pull the trigger over and over really fast, but it means they have easier control over their fire.... however your right, a lot of armies operate in qcb with that concept. weapons like the uzi and mp5 are excellent examples of that mentality....

a SAW is a terrible weapon to use for CQB... it's too heavy and annoying to maneuver. or at least that's what they told us in FIBUA (Fighting in Built-up Areas), which is like your MOUT or the british Fish & C(h)ips (Fighting in someone's home & combat in people's streets).

we use full auto FNC's and keep the Minimis and MAGs in support.

after the vietnam war ended and we returned to a professional army as opposed to a conscript army we did not adopt the m16a3 on the basis that it is full automatic. i honestly dont know why they even bother with the burst automatic in the m16a4 variant but the fact is that anything but single fire is not the preferred mode in any situation. combat marksmanship(done at a range of 25 to 100m) doesnt train with it, they train with rapid trigger pulls to create "controlled pairs", "hammer pairs" and "failure exercises", but never in full automatic because the weapon takes control of the situation and can get ahead of you. in other words the barrel may not be where you want it when the next round goes off.

our FNC's are safe-semi-3 round burst-full auto.
our F2000's are safe-semi-full auto.

when did i mention the ar-15? i know you did but i wanted to clarify that the m16 family, the MILITARY side of the game are assault rifles. really the only difference in a m16a3 and m16a4 trigger mechanism is that one doesn't have the addition of a burst cam.... im not even sure if an ar-15 has an automatic sear in it....

i mentioned the AR15.

and the "M" designations are just military names. the exact same rifles can be owned privately and be called sporting rifles. they're not evil because they're black and the military uses them... that was my point.

exactly, right weapon for the job. just like our m16 is made with a smaller round then something like 7.62 russian because it is easier to get accurate repeat shots out which makes the big difference in qcb. in a close quarters operation something like a m14 in 7.62 nato for example doesnt even compete.

5.56x45mm vs 7.62x39mm is a matter of doctrine. NATO wanted accuracy, Russia wanted volume of fire.

as for close quarters? i'd seriously take the 7.62x39mm without doubting for even one second... 5.56x45mm is horrible at punching through cover. 7.62x39mm has a lot less trouble with it.

 

[ceacar99]

a SAW is a terrible weapon to use for CQB... it's too heavy and annoying to maneuver. or at least that's what they told us in FIBUA (Fighting in Built-up Areas), which is like your MOUT or the british Fish & C(h)ips (Fighting in someone's home & combat in people's streets).

we use full auto FNC's and keep the Minimis and MAGs in support.

saw really aren't that good for the situation. m4 are very good qcb weapons, the lower rate of fire brought on by using it entirely in semi automatic means less rounds wasted and the fact that the m16 serries is INCREDIBLY quick to reload as compared to kalishkinovs, g36, and a lot of other weapons out there. the erganomic system of the magazines(which that fnc does have) plus the automatic bolt lock at the last round means that you can get the old mag out and a new one in at lightning speed and pretty much the instant you got a new one in the weapon is ready to fire.

a 249, well its good in a strong man's hands. it isnt going to win marksmanship awards but if your clearing the inside of a house it can definately turn the tide of a fight. 1000rpm, a large capacity for rounds and a weapon length about par with a m16 makes it acceptable for that task. however bringing it to shoulder quickly and getting accurate fire out for 50-100m shots is more difficult and m4 carbines definately beat it there....

anyway that fnc looks like a pretty good rifle. made by fn so i know its not a piece of crap(despite problems with the m249 in terms of malfunctions). havent had my hands in that thing personally, but i honestly hope to sometime in the future . the thing is that even with 5.56 in your weapon and your target at 10m fireing that thing full auto at 700rpm i cant see getting most of the rounds in on target. seems like such a waste.... for a good combat op you must have to carry a SHIT LOAD of mags.... at least 20 and even then that'd go quick if you weren't careful. lol, i realise now that its really just a bunch of doctrinal differences.

and the "M" designations are just military names. the exact same rifles can be owned privately and be called sporting rifles. they're not evil because they're black and the military uses them... that was my point.

not really evil, but the military ones would have to be modified if they went to civilians at least in this country. semi automatic only. even burst automatic is illegal(unless it was manufactured before a certain date and even then it is HIGHLY controlled). however a lot of sport rifles based on the fundamental m16 design are out there and they are sold as sport rifles. i know more then one person that likes em for hunting and plenty of people think they are just fun to shoot.

5.56x45mm vs 7.62x39mm is a matter of doctrine. NATO wanted accuracy, Russia wanted volume of fire.

as for close quarters? i'd seriously take the 7.62x39mm without doubting for even one second... 5.56x45mm is horrible at punching through cover. 7.62x39mm has a lot less trouble with it.

an example of our doctrine of accuracy is an investigation done because an alarming amount of people in fallujiah were being shot in the head by marines. the worry was that us marines were going through executing people. however the investigation found that the headshots were brought on by the fact that with the light weapon marines were just that good, that and the fact that often the only thing that was exposed were enough of the shoulders for the enemy to get their rifle out and of course the head.

russian doctrine would have just tried to pour fire through the rest of the cover which in a lot of european construct buildings that works excellently. however many iraqi buildings are highly resistant to penetration(so much so that we started using the ancient law rocket again because its rocket is better at piercing the unique construction of middle eastern buildings). piercing the cover with an ak47 may not work and you cant have .50 cals covering you the whole way, thus the us doctrine of accuracy that has been around since before ww1.

 

[Viliny]

woah, this is just wrong... Irony being here that a larger gun most likely would have spared his life

 

[Nullifidian]

Well, one has to seriously question the judgment of any parent who lets a small child like that fire a compact fully automatic weapon, under ANY safety conditions.

However, it looks like the primary blame is on the instructor. He was supposed to hold the gun in place for the kid and CLEARLY didn't. The results of his mistake were fatal to the child.


This is a tragedy. I know folks like to dish about Darwin awards and such, but one could hardly argue an 8 year old child deserved such a fate.

 

[ceacar99]

Well, one has to seriously question the judgment of any parent who lets a small child like that fire a compact fully automatic weapon, under ANY safety conditions.

However, it looks like the primary blame is on the instructor. He was supposed to hold the gun in place for the kid and CLEARLY didn't. The results of his mistake were fatal to the child.


This is a tragedy. I know folks like to dish about Darwin awards and such, but one could hardly argue an 8 year old child deserved such a fate.

8-10 year olds kill people with ak47 and uzi all the time in africa. it isnt too much to expect that the kid wouldnt shoot himself in the head with an uzi.... really not something even the instructor could have seen coming.

 

[Nullifidian]

Well, one has to seriously question the judgment of any parent who lets a small child like that fire a compact fully automatic weapon, under ANY safety conditions.

However, it looks like the primary blame is on the instructor. He was supposed to hold the gun in place for the kid and CLEARLY didn't. The results of his mistake were fatal to the child.


This is a tragedy. I know folks like to dish about Darwin awards and such, but one could hardly argue an 8 year old child deserved such a fate.

8-10 year olds kill people with ak47 and uzi all the time in africa. it isnt too much to expect that the kid wouldnt shoot himself in the head with an uzi.... really not something even the instructor could have seen coming.

Again...

8-10 year olds kill people with ak47 and uzi all the time in africa.

to which I still say:

one has to seriously question the judgment of any parent who lets a small child like that fire a compact fully automatic weapon, under ANY safety conditions.

I don't really think it's appropriate to hold African killer kids as models of sane ways to rear children.

Plus, it's not as if people are keeping tabs on the number of kids who accidentally kill themselves with micro uzis in africa.

 

[SuAside]

saw really aren't that good for the situation. m4 are very good qcb weapons, the lower rate of fire brought on by using it entirely in semi automatic means less rounds wasted and the fact that the m16 serries is INCREDIBLY quick to reload as compared to kalishkinovs, g36, and a lot of other weapons out there. the erganomic system of the magazines(which that fnc does have) plus the automatic bolt lock at the last round means that you can get the old mag out and a new one in at lightning speed and pretty much the instant you got a new one in the weapon is ready to fire.

if you need more than a magazine while roomclearing, you're doing it the wrong way, dude.

as for the bolt hold open? it's a matter of doctrine... if you hit the deck with your gun empty, you're a lot more likely to foul your gun with dirt, causing a much higher possibility of jams and such.
besides, any gun can mount a BHO, it's a single part you need to add, even a kid can do it. easier than Legos, dude. so it's a matter of personal choice.

a 249, well its good in a strong man's hands. it isnt going to win marksmanship awards but if your clearing the inside of a house it can definately turn the tide of a fight. 1000rpm, a large capacity for rounds and a weapon length about par with a m16 makes it acceptable for that task. however bringing it to shoulder quickly and getting accurate fire out for 50-100m shots is more difficult and m4 carbines definately beat it there....

spoiler: the SAW is an M249... wtf are you going on about? first you say it's not good for the situation and then you say it's good?

ugh. the more stuff you say, the more i think you're just talking from experience in videogames...

the difference between 1000rpm and 700rpm in close quarters is totally fucking negligable...

(despite problems with the m249 in terms of malfunctions).

perhaps, just perhaps, the malfunctions with the M249 in Iraq and Afghanistan might be due to the fact that the weapons used are over 15 years old, have seen heavy use for over a decade in armed conflicts and that the US Army never bought ANY of the long term maintenance gear for the M249 weapon system?

just a thought...

the army doctrine for the M249 says that it's cheaper to just wear them out completely and then buy new guns. but that means you'll have malfunctions because you're using it without proper long term maintenance until the gun fails completely.

USA, FUCK YEAH!

havent had my hands in that thing personally, but i honestly hope to sometime in the future . the thing is that even with 5.56 in your weapon and your target at 10m fireing that thing full auto at 700rpm i cant see getting most of the rounds in on target. seems like such a waste.... for a good combat op you must have to carry a SHIT LOAD of mags.... at least 20 and even then that'd go quick if you weren't careful. lol, i realise now that its really just a bunch of doctrinal differences.

Belgium had for long the most heavily armed infantrists in the world... we had "trinomen" (being 3 man squads, with 2 men armed with an FNC and the other one with a special weapon, be it a SAW, a MAG, a grenade launcher or a sniper rifle) when the US was still doing 20 man + support or something around those figures.
so yeah, big doctrine differences.

an example of our doctrine of accuracy is an investigation done because an alarming amount of people in fallujiah were being shot in the head by marines. the worry was that us marines were going through executing people. however the investigation found that the headshots were brought on by the fact that with the light weapon marines were just that good, that and the fact that often the only thing that was exposed were enough of the shoulders for the enemy to get their rifle out and of course the head.

euhm, a decent AK is more than capable of doing headshots at 200m...

you're comparing fucking Hadjis to professional western soldiers, for fucks sake. the difference doesn't lie in the chosen weaponsystem, but in the training.

give your marines a decent AKM, and they'll still be tapping headshots like before. ok, maybe not at 400m, but Fallujah was CQB, not open long range combat.

russian doctrine would have just tried to pour fire through the rest of the cover which in a lot of european construct buildings that works excellently. however many iraqi buildings are highly resistant to penetration(so much so that we started using the ancient law rocket again because its rocket is better at piercing the unique construction of middle eastern buildings). piercing the cover with an ak47 may not work and you cant have .50 cals covering you the whole way, thus the us doctrine of accuracy that has been around since before ww1.

euhm, dude, you do realise that in the vast majority of Europe, you got solid brick walls, right? i've don't even got a wet wall in my house... i could shoot 3" 12 gauge slugs in my house without fearing overpenetration.
so none of the prefab US-style stuff?

so no, you're wrong.

and my point about penetration was more aimed at cars, windows, trees, shrubs, wooden fences,... all things which would greatly diminish the effectiveness of an 5.56mm.

8-10 year olds kill people with ak47 and uzi all the time in africa. it isnt too much to expect that the kid wouldnt shoot himself in the head with an uzi.... really not something even the instructor could have seen coming.

the instructor should be there to prevent the uzi from recoiling and shooting holes in the fucking ceiling... let alone a hole in the kid's head...

 

[ceacar99]

if you need more than a magazine while roomclearing, you're doing it the wrong way, dude.

as for the bolt hold open? it's a matter of doctrine... if you hit the deck with your gun empty, you're a lot more likely to foul your gun with dirt, causing a much higher possibility of jams and such.
besides, any gun can mount a BHO, it's a single part you need to add, even a kid can do it. easier than Legos, dude. so it's a matter of personal choice.

hrmm.... question bho?

anyway a lot of my problems recently seem to be that people aren't quite receiving the whole thought i have in my head or something and misunderstand.

when the last round in a magazine is fired the bolt locks in the open position, just like the slide on almost all pistols locks open. the bolt release button is right next to the magazine well, so when the shooter inserts the new magazine he just needs to lower his thumb a little to press the button. basically because of that system the weapon is ready to fire a quarter second after the new magazine is inserted. to my limited knowledge of the fnc there is no such thing on that weapon and the charging handle is on the right side further slowing the process. anyway i said that stuff just to discuss the advantages of the m16 system in qcb.

spoiler: the SAW is an M249... wtf are you going on about? first you say it's not good for the situation and then you say it's good?

ugh. the more stuff you say, the more i think you're just talking from experience in videogames...

the difference between 1000rpm and 700rpm in close quarters is totally fucking negligable...

*blinks* when did i say the saw wasnt a 249? now i said what i did in previous posts about the 249 because you mentioned "never underestimate the power of supressive fire in qcb" and i commented that the only thing that our infantry has that could provide automatic firepower like that was a m249 saw. further i said it still was not that good of a weapon for a lot of situations in mout, however if someone is strong enough that its weight doesnt bother them then because of its high rof and large capacity for rounds it can be a good weapon for clearing the internals of a building, however pretty much every rifle will beat it in a contest of lifting it into shoulder, aiming down the sights and keeping good accurate fire up, the saw is just a bit heavy....

perhaps, just perhaps, the malfunctions with the M249 in Iraq and Afghanistan might be due to the fact that the weapons used are over 15 years old, have seen heavy use for over a decade in armed conflicts and that the US Army never bought ANY of the long term maintenance gear for the M249 weapon system?

just a thought...

the army doctrine for the M249 says that it's cheaper to just wear them out completely and then buy new guns. but that means you'll have malfunctions because you're using it without proper long term maintenance until the gun fails completely.

USA, FUCK YEAH!

if i find a worn part in ANY weapon during its pre fire inspection that i cannot replace right away i deadline the weapon basically meaning it WONT be shot. i dont know how the army does things(because im not in the army) but i know the standards put on me as a marine.

i dont know about you but its actually my primary job to repair firearms. i dont let weapons with worn and weak parts go out because the weapon itself could kill the marine using it. hell if i dont set the timing on those god damned mk19s right the weapon will quite literally blow up in the shooters face.

i dont know where you got that information but the m249 doesnt fail because we let it fall into a state of disrepair. a lot of failures right now are because the smaller feed pawls on the weapon dont like the moon dust in iraq and afganistan much. the 240 for some reason seems to be fine but the 249 has constant malfunctions in those conditions. it may also be due to the fact that the 249 has a rotating bolt that locks into the barrel as opposed to the collapsing bolt that locks into the receiver as with the 240. however that is me just theorizing there.

euhm, a decent AK is more than capable of doing headshots at 200m...

you're comparing fucking Hadjis to professional western soldiers, for fucks sake. the difference doesn't lie in the chosen weaponsystem, but in the training.

give your marines a decent AKM, and they'll still be tapping headshots like before. ok, maybe not at 400m, but Fallujah was CQB, not open long range combat.

that comment i made was a follow up of my comment that 5.56 low recoil weapons do a hell of a lot better in qcb in terms of getting repeat accurate shots out. i dont believe for an instant that all those head shots were made on the first try. however the m16 and m4 proved to be excellent weapons in that situation because the extremely low recoil allowed them to get more accurate shots out then the ak47. the weapon with higher recoil is just far more difficult to get on target while shooting at the same pace as the lower, you know that .

euhm, dude, you do realise that in the vast majority of Europe, you got solid brick walls, right? i've don't even got a wet wall in my house... i could shoot 3" 12 gauge slugs in my house without fearing overpenetration.
so none of the prefab US-style stuff?

so no, you're wrong.

and my point about penetration was more aimed at cars, windows, trees, shrubs, wooden fences,... all things which would greatly diminish the effectiveness of an 5.56mm.

ya.... i dont know how familiar you are with the event but there was a famous gunbattle over a bank robbery in los angeles. the two criminals were armored from head to toe in kevlar(at a time where cops didnt normally have rifles in their cars) so they were pretty much impervious to the incoming fire from the police. they then opened up with their ak47's fed by drum magazines. cops ducked behind cars and got shot to hell. then cops realizing that the guns would punch through their vest even after going through a car sought better cover. cops were shot through a small key shop, cinder block walls, brick walls and more. none of it provided enough strength to stop rounds.

now i know you got a lot of brick walls in europe, but the modern ones aren't that thick and wouldnt put up any more of an obstical then the brick and cinderblock walls in los angeles. now if your talking about a old building made out of thick stone walls, well your right. however if your talking about a normal household brick wall(like the one on my house in colorado) then its not gonna hold up.

 

[SuAside]

hrmm.... question bho?

Bolt Hold Open. still doesn't let you release the bolt automatically, but only requires a tap for it to release.

*blinks* when did i say the saw wasnt a 249?

your comments on the M249 and the SAW read as if you meant they weren't the same thing. first saying they're not good, but then saying it's ok for MOUT.

if i find a worn part in ANY weapon during its pre fire inspection that i cannot replace right away i deadline the weapon basically meaning it WONT be shot. i dont know how the army does things(because im not in the army) but i know the standards put on me as a marine.

i dont know about you but its actually my primary job to repair firearms. i dont let weapons with worn and weak parts go out because the weapon itself could kill the marine using it. hell if i dont set the timing on those god damned mk19s right the weapon will quite literally blow up in the shooters face.

i dont know where you got that information but the m249 doesnt fail because we let it fall into a state of disrepair. a lot of failures right now are because the smaller feed pawls on the weapon dont like the moon dust in iraq and afganistan much. the 240 for some reason seems to be fine but the 249 has constant malfunctions in those conditions. it may also be due to the fact that the 249 has a rotating bolt that locks into the barrel as opposed to the collapsing bolt that locks into the receiver as with the 240. however that is me just theorizing there.

my info comes from our boys in Afghanistan (and the americans they come into contact with). our Minimis are doing fine. From the jungles of the Congo to the sand&rockdeserts of Afghanistan.

that comment i made was a follow up of my comment that 5.56 low recoil weapons do a hell of a lot better in qcb in terms of getting repeat accurate shots out. i dont believe for an instant that all those head shots were made on the first try. however the m16 and m4 proved to be excellent weapons in that situation because the extremely low recoil allowed them to get more accurate shots out then the ak47. the weapon with higher recoil is just far more difficult to get on target while shooting at the same pace as the lower, you know that .

true, of course.

ya.... i dont know how familiar you are with the event but there was a famous gunbattle over a bank robbery in los angeles. the two criminals were armored from head to toe in kevlar(at a time where cops didnt normally have rifles in their cars) so they were pretty much impervious to the incoming fire from the police. they then opened up with their ak47's fed by drum magazines. cops ducked behind cars and got shot to hell. then cops realizing that the guns would punch through their vest even after going through a car sought better cover. cops were shot through a small key shop, cinder block walls, brick walls and more. none of it provided enough strength to stop rounds.

regardless of the worn armor, the perp did have 17 bullet wounds. tough guy.
they let him bleed out afterwards.

now i know you got a lot of brick walls in europe, but the modern ones aren't that thick and wouldnt put up any more of an obstical then the brick and cinderblock walls in los angeles. now if your talking about a old building made out of thick stone walls, well your right. however if your talking about a normal household brick wall(like the one on my house in colorado) then its not gonna hold up.

from what i can see here, brick walls are quite thick and strong. i really could fire a slug into it without penetrating it.

it would break the interior wall and the next shot would go through, but they're tough bricks used here.

 

[ceacar99]

hrmm.... things are going better now that i managed to get all the miss communications sorted out.....

Bolt Hold Open. still doesn't let you release the bolt automatically, but only requires a tap for it to release.

so does a fnc come with an automatic bolt lock? my knowledge of that is limited to pictures and technical descriptions of its innards, lol. never shot or even handled the thing.

my info comes from our boys in Afghanistan (and the americans they come into contact with). our Minimis are doing fine. From the jungles of the Congo to the sand&rockdeserts of Afghanistan.

well... there is A LOT of movement in the marine corps to replace the 249(there was even an article about proposed replacements in the marine corps times) because marines have no faith in it. 98% of all the saw gunners i talk to say the same thing about it. they love the firepower it puts out and admit that weapon when its at the top of the game can really dominate a situation but they all say that it constantly malfunctions. i know about 50% of those people probably didnt keep the weapon as clean as they should but when i only heard 2 people out of all the rest saying the weapon was fine. well.... yknow....

ive got to shoot it quite a bit and its fun little monster but even when i was shooting it at the machinegun range it started to gum up a lot after a few hundred rounds. in comparison my m16(which is a weapon notorious for unreliability) had no problems after about 700 rounds put through it in 4 days without cleaning other then first charging the weapon i often had to use the forward assist to ensure that the bolt went all the way forward because of the friction brought on by the carbon in the weapon(that and sometimes the weapon double fired but that was a result from my trigger worn down to the point it was a hair trigger).

true, of course.[/quote

that was my point. its a tough argument but our military has made the statement that its MUCH more important to be able to get the most accurate rounds out at the person when he is exposed then by trying to eliminate whatever cover he is hiding behind. if his cover gives us a little too much trouble we got weapons like the m203 to deal with him.

regardless of the worn armor, the perp did have 17 bullet wounds. tough guy. Smile
they let him bleed out afterwards.

i know one of them shot himself and the other got a lot of bullet wounds AFTER the cops got a hold of some rifles from a local gunstore. you can almost hear the criminal's mind thinking "shit fuck!!! shit shit shit!!!" during the final moments of the shootout when he realizes that the cops are now shooting him with things that his armor cant stop.

 

[SuAside]

so does a fnc come with an automatic bolt lock? my knowledge of that is limited to pictures and technical descriptions of its innards, lol. never shot or even handled the thing.

it doesn't, but it can be installed. it's unnecessary by the doctrine of most european armies though.

ive got to shoot it quite a bit and its fun little monster but even when i was shooting it at the machinegun range it started to gum up a lot after a few hundred rounds. in comparison my m16(which is a weapon notorious for unreliability) had no problems after about 700 rounds put through it in 4 days without cleaning other then first charging the weapon i often had to use the forward assist to ensure that the bolt went all the way forward because of the friction brought on by the carbon in the weapon(that and sometimes the weapon double fired but that was a result from my trigger worn down to the point it was a hair trigger).

you're an armorer by don't clean your weapons in 4 days / 700 rounds?

as for the trigger? euhm, wouldn't that be a good time to swap the trigger pack?

i know one of them shot himself and the other got a lot of bullet wounds AFTER the cops got a hold of some rifles from a local gunstore. you can almost hear the criminal's mind thinking "shit fuck!!! shit shit shit!!!" during the final moments of the shootout when he realizes that the cops are now shooting him with things that his armor cant stop.

well, cops here still are predominantly using 9x19mm. no rifles or shotguns in the patrol cars. some old timers still use .357Mag revolvers though. at most you'd have a few people with an MP5 or a UZI in the patrol car. but those are still handgun bullets.

you need special intervention squads if you want heavy firepower here.

but it's understandable, it's been years since we've last had heavy ordnance and body armor used by criminals in hold-ups and such. no real threat is perceived atm, until it is too late, obviously.

 

[ceacar99]

you're an armorer by don't clean your weapons in 4 days / 700 rounds?

as for the trigger? euhm, wouldn't that be a good time to swap the trigger pack?

well that was rifle range. the marine corps is STUPID in a lot of ways.... during qualification we get up at 4am to draw weapons from the armory(which isnt my armory because the range is on a different part of the base) and when shooting is done for the day everyone is in such a rush to turn the weapons back in that there isnt any time for proper cleaning, further while the range is in operation nobody is allowed to dismantle their weapon and clean it.....pure craziness..... anyway so by the time you start doing table 2(combat marksmanship, table 1 is 200-500m basic marksmanship, table 2 is 25-100m advanced combat oriented marksmanship) your weapon is pretty damn full of carbon. in my case even though i had a nice tac latch installed on my charging handle(making it so i could charge the weapon with a sweep of my left hand as opposed to properly gripping the charging handle and drawing it back) reloading from the closed bolt still took a moment because i usually had to use the foreward assist.....

and ya, i replaced the trigger itself(the other parts like the hammer weren't worn at all) after i got back. though i do admit that the hair trigger REALLY helped me out on qual day(no double fires that day ), considering the thing was so worn that i pretty much didnt have to worry about trigger control at all.

well, cops here still are predominantly using 9x19mm. no rifles or shotguns in the patrol cars. some old timers still use .357Mag revolvers though. at most you'd have a few people with an MP5 or a UZI in the patrol car. but those are still handgun bullets.

you need special intervention squads if you want heavy firepower here.

but it's understandable, it's been years since we've last had heavy ordnance and body armor used by criminals in hold-ups and such. no real threat is perceived atm, until it is too late, obviously.

the story is that the cops comendeered a whole bunch of hunting rifles and things from a local gun store. one of the criminals shot himself, the other kept on going long enough for those rifles to put holes in him. at least thats what i remember from it....

 

[Dal1as]

the story is that the cops comendeered a whole bunch of hunting rifles and things from a local gun store. one of the criminals shot himself, the other kept on going long enough for those rifles to put holes in him. at least thats what i remember from it....

The comendeered hunting rifles but I believe a head shot from a SWAT sniper is what took the 2nd perp out. I remember an article talking about the mom wanting to file a lawsuit for excessive force.