Can you Squint and fit Wasteland into Fallout?

Discussion in 'Wasteland Discussion' started by Charwo, Mar 19, 2017.

  1. Iprovidelittlepianos

    Iprovidelittlepianos Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    332
    May 12, 2020
    I guess that’s true, I’d just think that a former de facto ruler of the city would’ve been remembered. But I forgot how long it had been between Fat Freddy being mentioned in Fallout 1 and New Vegas, so it makes sense that he would be forgotten.
     
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  2. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Mojave Express Employee of the Month

    Mar 16, 2013
    Yeah you've got no idea how long he was in charge of the place, some gangster freak in charge of the shop for 10 years is a drop in the bucket compared to the probable decades of violence, factionalism and eventually the development of the tribes.
     
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  3. Proletären

    Proletären Moderator

    787
    Mar 15, 2012
    Here's the Wasteland worldmap and here are the locations.

    The truly difficult thing to merge would be the Guardians of the Old Order who reside in the Guardian Citadel. They are almost the same faction as the Brotherhood of Steel, the big difference being the name. Since this would take place roughly at the same time as Fallout 1 it would probably be a bit of a stretch to convert the Guardians into the BoS. I.e. having the Citadel being inhabited by the BoS. Would it be probable that BoS would also have a base in Nevada a few years after the events of Fallout 1?

    One would probably have to go with a kill your darlings approach. It can't reek of fanfiction. Fallout lore can't be set aside. Everything one puts in the game would have to be first and foremost not be in conflict with or contradict anything in Fallout 1. If it passes that it would also have to be in line with Fallout 2 as the next check, then New Vegas and then possibly Tactics. If it's not contradictionary to any established lore then it's okay.

    e: There was a Chinese invasion according to wasteland-lore. Anyone know anything about that?
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  4. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    850
    Jun 7, 2015
    Just about everything can be made to fit, except one major fact... canonically, Hoover Dam was destroyed in Wasteland. Otherwise, most of it can be made to fit.

    Guardian Citadel: The first interesting one. In terms of location, it probably corresponds to some facility in Yuma Proving Grounds. While we could infer the existence of another pseudo-monastic technophilic order, this seems unlikely. The Guardians therefore are pretty clearly one in the same as the Brotherhood of Steel. The question is how they're related.

    One could go for the Fallout 76 explanation and say that Yuma Proving Grounds just so happend to be run by one of Roger Maxson's best buds who phoned him up after his mutiny and thought that the idea was epic, so he recreated an almost exact copy of the Brotherhood 250 miles away. This is possible, but not preferred.

    Alternatively, the only other explanation seems to be that it was an early patrol/expedition way far out. I'm also reluctant to opt for this explanation, because it seems strange that the Brotherhood prior to Fallout 1 would have the capacity to set up a colony so very far away, especially when you consider that there are at least 83 Guardian NPCs, which surely would take a big chunk out of Maxson's rag-tag crew early on in their history. It seems almost impossible to imagine such a large colony prior to the events of Fallout 1, but I suppose its not impossible. It becomes a lot more likely if we locate Fallout: Wasteland after the events of 1.

    As to the different nomenclature, there are two possibilities. The first is that the Guardians are a splinter group that broke off from the main body of the Brotherhood. Alternatively we can just ignore the difference in nomenclature.

    Rail Nomads: Just another group of eccentric tribals. Very similar to the Iron Lines of Van Buren and mentioned in NV. Could be one in the same just under a different name that we can ignore (as for the Guardians), could be ancestors, or could just be similar lifestyles.

    Darwin: An isolated village in central Arizona, a bit north of Phoenix, hence the radiation. The underground facility is just one of countless government R&D projects pursuing strange concepts, run by an eccentric. Finster would admittedly be the most advanced robot/cyborg in the old games, his body far too smooth and humanoid. Either he just had a particuarly advanced robot, or you can retcon it for him to be in a robobrain.

    Vegas: Aside from the small detail of Hoover Dam, it basically works. Now, Vegas seems to be a lot more civilized in Wasteland compared to what is described in Fallout. It's quite prosperous and intact, and is already a gambling mecca for the region. This is obviously extremely problematic for the plot of New Vegas and indeed Fallout 2, there's no reason that NCR's discovery should have taken so long if it was up and active. So we need a way to justify its fall into a less civilized tribalism.

    Luckily, there are two possible solutions provided by Wasteland 2/3. One, Vegas is wiped out by the radioactive clouds that move in following the events of Wasteland 1. This has a nice symmetry with Mr. House's mention that all of the citizens of Vegas survived and cheered out in the streets only to be killed by fallout drifting in, even if its obviously a separate event. Alternatively, we could say it was wiped out or severely weakened by the attack of marauding Cochise cyborgs. Following this it devolves into tribalism.

    Base Cochise: Again, nothing fundamentally contradictory here. A military base in Northern Nevada run by a malevolent AI, one of many in Fallout. Interestingly, its location is sort-of-kind-of similar to where Big MT is, as well as the Nevada Test Site. If we consider the presence of RoboScorpions, we could speculate that Base Cochise was a related facility outside of the boundaries of Big Mountain itself , or at least that it had some access to the Think Tank's designs. In any case, its destruction by a reactor meltdown could serve as another one of the impediments to NCR travel directly through Nevada, in addition to Death Valley, Big MT itself, and eventually the Divide.
     
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  5. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Mojave Express Employee of the Month

    Mar 16, 2013
    Fundamentally I think Project Darwin and the Cyborgs is not going to be a great fit, and at best I'd say you could say these are tidbits of misconstrued rumours from the events of Fallout 1 and the Unity that got blended into the totally true adventurers of the Desert Rangers where they flew a badass helicopter and they were the ones who stopped the big weird army from taking over the Wasteland and not some nobody in a vault suit.

    We also can't have a war between the Desert Rangers and the Brotherhood, and something as decisive as the siege of the Citadel would be an outright act of war. Perhaps in this telling, a remote exploratory outpost of the Brotherhood possesses the access technology for our 'Base Cochise', and the Rangers had to either steal it or destroy the Brotherhood outpost whilst blaming another group (The Vipers?) in order to keep the heat off of them. A hint of things to come with the Brotherhood categorically being unwilling to give up unique technology.


    My foggy memory recalls that the tribal mythology of the VB Iron Lines has them chasing a roaring machine in their ancestry. They came from somewhere else originally, and folllowed a train to Colorado. Well, how about that.


    Just turn down the notch on the neon one turn. Make mid 2100s Vegas basically like Gizmo's junktown. Hive of scum and villainy, but dumpy backwater style and not at all a New Reno. Mojave is too hostile for it to be worth it. At the particular moments the Rangers drop through, it's doing its best to pretend, but it's only just a few footsteps away from the tribal degeneration. Perhaps Freddy was keeping things together, shitty as they are, and when he dies the place slumps entirely. He was just holding back the inevitable.



    Cass remarks that Hawthorne Army Base in roughly the same area "has a lot of history" with no further elaboration - perhaps that could be a point of interest?
     
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  6. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    850
    Jun 7, 2015
    Why do you say that? Obviously these cyborgs/robots haven't been seen elsewhere in Fallout, but cybernetics were at a fairly advanced state in Fallout, so it seems strange to think that someone out there wouldn't have been working on more advanced models, so why not have a few research facilities pumping them out. Obviously the resemblance between the main story and that of 1 is somewhat troubling for any integration, but I don't think it's a death knell. The fundamental orientation of Cochise AI is a little different from the Master - the Master does fundamentally care about humanity and human survival, whereas the Cochise AI seems to be looking it its creations more like the android in Alien does - they're superior lifeforms, simple as, and he wants to transform the planet into something inhuman and horrific. But in any case, you could just make it more Calculator-esque, an AI gone haywire without any specific goal in mind producing new variations of cyborgs.

    I mean I suppose a war is possible between the Desert Rangers and the Brotherhood since we never see them or hear of them interacting, but yeah it probably would stretch credulity and I doubt the Brotherhood would let that go lightly. You could explaining it by having the Citadel be a splinter group to also explain the name change, though this is not my preferred model.

    Considering how little info the Desert Rangers have at this point they might not even know that the Citadel is an expeditionary force of a larger organization, so they might not think to try and cover their tracks, though I suppose the locals would remember when they showed up. So I guess framing some other group would make sense. Feels a little too far afield for the Vipers at this point, it would be enough of a challenge for the Brotherhood to get there, so probably some local group. Maybe the Temple of Blood?

    I had considered this, it would tie things together very neatly to have Fat Freddy's death be the cause of the collapse, but it wouldn't really make sense - Faran Brygo was number one in town, and unlike Killian Darkwater's sense of frontier justice there's nothing in Brygo's character that suggests that he would create a precipitous decline inthe settlement. No, it feels like the cause needs to be external, so attacks from Cochise cyborgs and/or radioactive clouds drifting in feel like the best solution.

    Could be, but feels way too far north. On the map, Cochise is at roughly the same latitude as Glenn Canyon or thereabouts. An identification with the Nevada Test Site/Area 51/Big Mountain fits really well with the map and fits really well with the superscience nexus and blocks to Californian commerce up there.
     
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  7. Iprovidelittlepianos

    Iprovidelittlepianos Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    332
    May 12, 2020
    The plot of Wasteland 1 is practically identical to the plot of Fallout 1, thematically at least, so it would seem a bit contrived to have both of them happening at roughly the same time. However, I don’t think it’s a stretch that the Guardians of the Old Order arose independently of the Brotherhood of Steel. I personally think it’s better to have a bunch of Brotherhood-like factions as opposed to the actual Brotherhood being everywhere. But this is all head canon anyway, that’s just my two cents.
     
  8. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    850
    Jun 7, 2015
    Like I said, I think there are differences between the main sotry of Wasteland and Fallout 1. Fallout 1's is a lot more philosophical in tenor, whereas Wasteland is a lot more AI gone haywire and pumping out enemies like the Calculator.

    I would like to agree with you on Guardians of the Old Order, but they're explicitly a pseudo-knightly pseudo-monastic order. The odds of their being two Army remnants within a few hundred miles of each other that explicitly devote themselves to hoarding technology in a the fasion of religious fanatacism, and also seem to be massive DnD fans... I dunno, it stretches my credulity far too much. I guess you could rewrite the Guardians to be more of a generic army remnant if you really wanted to but that takes away basically all their flavor.
     
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  9. Proletären

    Proletären Moderator

    787
    Mar 15, 2012
    One could argue that Fallout 1 and 2 already have retrofitted the essential elements of Wasteland 1 into the Fallout lore. Fallout 1 by having the Guardians of the Old Order turn into the Brotherhood of Steel and Cochise into the Master and his army. Fallout 2 by turning Vegas and it's rival gangs into New Reno and it's rival Families.

    However it's still a fun experiment we have here, let's see how far we can take it. The fact that Tycho is a former Desert Ranger and that Fallout: New Vegas references Wasteland 1 in more ways than is just subtle fan service gives us a case I think.

    Thank you for your posts about the Guardians. This gets right to the core I believe:

    Since we would need to go with a kill-your-darlings approach, as to not get a Bethesda level of writing, I would say that we will have to cut the faction and just have a base with army remnants. I agree that it's sad since the Guardians were a big part of Wasteland 1, but we already have the Brotherhood of Steel back in California so this faction has to go.

    However those army remnants could always be made part of the Brotherhood at a later stage I believe. It's not improbable that the original Brotherhood would try to get in contact with other remnants of the former US military. And remember that there is a Brotherhood bunker to be found in Fallout: New Vegas.

    The above quote informs us why the Guardians had the keys to Cochise, it's because some of it's founding members came from that place. I guess that in our version of Wasteland 1 where the game is converted into Fallout format, the Citadel would just be some base that's home to former militaries. It's still possible to make something cool out of it - and that's our task! How would they be organised for example?

    The quoted above is very interesting. We would have to go with the version where the population of Las Vegas is killed by poisonous clouds as to not contradict actual Fallout lore. However, as is confirmed by the quote, an empty city that's unharmed by war would be resettled. Nine warheads still hit the Vegas area so with a lot of other places destroyed people would probably come in droves to re-inhabit the city. When law and order no longer exists chaos erupts. Obviously someone would try to fill to power vacuum and here we have Fat Freddy and Faran Brygo being the main players.

    However, Robert House woke up from his coma 61 years after the bombs hit. This gives us some trouble since that would be in the year of 2138 which is 23 years before Fallout 1. However since Robert House didn't send out his Securitrons untill the NCR arrived in 2274, it doesn't matter that much.

    In 2274:
    Some of those tribes could very well be descendents of Fat Freddy and Faran Brygos.

    If we let the conversion of Wasteland into Fallout, let's call it Fallout: Desert Rangers from now on, take place in the year 2137 that would make things easy for us. It solves two problems. One, we get to see Vegas as it was before Robert House woke up. And two it makes it plausible that Tychos father was a Desert Ranger.

    It would probably be a good idea to settle on a year first. When we have that it's easier to make judgement on other necessary adjustments.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
  10. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    850
    Jun 7, 2015
    I'm still not totally sold on making the Guardians distinct from the Brotherhood and in the process removing all of their flavor to keep from having an absurd coincidence. Brotherhood establishing a colony this far out doesn't seem to be out of the question.

    Of course in Fallout 3, a decent size Brotherhood contingent walked all the way from Lost Hills to DC and has a good sized army that doesn't have a single Wastelander recruit - in fact, it's big enough that they were able to fight a full scale war in the Pitt before getting to DC, are able to split into two decent sized organizations, and then serve as an effective fighting force in the Wasteland. More substantially IMO in Fallout 3 is the mention of a "Montana Bunker," the Elder of which is quoted by Lyons in somewhat religious terms, suggesting to me that that colony was established a long while ago.

    Ignoring Fallout 3 entirely, we of course have Tactics, where a decent sized Brotherhood force is sent out in an airship in 2185 on the vague rumors of a Super Mutant remnant. This group of course did need to recruit from the locals, but initially it was decently sized.

    And of course in Fallout 2, the Brotherhood has managed to build - from scratch - three seperate bunkers all across Northern California, including the Den which is some hundred miles further than the Citadel would be.

    New Vegas unfortunately doesn't help the case all that much. While it is mentioned that multiple Brotherhood bunkers were taken by NCR in the NCR-Brotherhood War showing that the Brotherhood had facilities beyond Lost Hills, the fact that the Mojave Chapter was only established some two decades prior to the events of the game speaks against the establishment of extensive Brotherhood colonies.
     
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  11. Proletären

    Proletären Moderator

    787
    Mar 15, 2012
    You are right! Maybe they should be kept as a faction since they are so iconic and then keep silent about the absurd coincidence. For all we know it might be common for military personnel to develop that kind of organisation when the army is dissolved and society gone.

    Either that or just have them be part of the Brotherhood of Steel but with a contrived explanation as to why. Can we conjure a better explanation than what they did in Fallout 76? It's not that far-fetched that they were in contact with the founders of the Brotherhood since they are all ex-military but there might be a more interesting explanation.

    If we keep the Citadel we must explain what will happen to it years later as it's neither present or mentioned in New Vegas. We can't introduce stuff that's then never heard about again. I must admit I have yet to play Wasteland 1 but it seems like the Desert Rangers clears the Citadel and eradicates the faction. As Atomic Postman said it might make things difficult to introduce a war between the Desert Rangers and BoS. That calls for the faction that inhabits the Citadel to be the Guardians. When they are finished by the Rangers they are never heard from again.