China goes Fuedal on Buddhists

[welsh]

It's in the news.

I don't think the Tibetans have much hope.

But then again, if they didn't do anything, they would still have little hope.

Honestly, these days I think the best foreign policy for China is two words.

Fuck China.

China "Holds Tibetan Dissidents"
BBC News

Monday 17 March 2008

Security forces in the Tibetan city of Lhasa are rounding up dissidents, exiled Tibetans say, as a deadline approaches for protesters to surrender.

China has given demonstrators in the city until midnight (1600 GMT) to give themselves up or face punishment.

Dozens are feared dead after days of rioting in Lhasa, with each side accusing the other of excessive force.

Let's see, who do you believe-

A bunch of peaceful Buddhists or the bunch that gave us a massacre in Tiannenmen Square?

Other parts of China also saw rallies on the weekend, while Tibetans in Nepal and India are continuing to protest.

Qiangba Puncog, the Tibetan regional governor, said 13 "innocent civilians" had been killed by mobs in Lhasa.

He blamed the unrest on outside forces including Tibet's spiritual leader the Dalai Lama, who heads the Tibetan government-in-exile from India.

"The Dalai group and some other people in Western countries look at the beating, burning and smashing activities in the riots in Lhasa as peaceful demonstrations," he said.

"No democratic country in the world will tolerate this kind of crime."

Regretfully, this may not be true.
Afterall, what democracy that is dominated by big business would do anything to upset China these days.

Why, because as long as western democracies allow big business to decide China policy, than those democracies will generally not utter any protest.

The exiled Tibetan government says at least 80 protesters died in the Chinese crackdown.

Spokesman Tenzin Takhla said the security forces had regained control of the city and it was impossible for anyone to hold a rally there at the moment.

He said there were house-to-house searches going on and a number of former political prisoners were reported to have been detained again.

One Lhasa resident told the BBC late on Sunday that there was a heavy police presence in the city - but signs of normal life had returned.

"The schools are now open and children are going to school but shops are still closed as lots have been damaged and burned," he said.

In other words, if you are interested in buying organs for transplant, China is having a sale.

Rocks Hurled

Meanwhile, in neighbouring Sichuan province, rights groups say seven people were killed when security forces opened fire on Tibetan protesters in the city of Aba on Sunday.

And in Machu, Gansu province, a protester told the BBC a crowd of people set government buildings on fire on Sunday.

Groups of people also took down the Chinese flag and set it on fire, replacing it with the Tibetan flag, he said.

Damn! That's unpatriotic!
There should be a constitutional amendment........
.... Oh that's the flag in China....

Nevermind.

Smaller protests were reported elsewhere in Gansu and Tibet.

China has given Tibetans involved in the Lhasa protests a deadline of midnight on Monday local time to surrender to police.

The Dalai Lama has called for an international inquiry into China's crackdown, while Western leaders have called for restraint.

But the Dalai is considered a criminal in China.
(Because he has his own opinion).

Anti-China rallies began on 10 March - the anniversary of a Tibetan uprising - and gradually intensified.

On Friday, demonstrators in Lhasa set fire to Chinese-owned shops and hurled rocks at local police, triggering a crackdown.

The unrest comes as preparations for this year's Olympic Games in Beijing are well advanced.

China has already faced calls for boycotts over its policies in Africa, and Olympic chief Jacques Rogge said he was "very concerned" about the situation in Tibet.

China says Tibet has always been part of its territory. But Tibet enjoyed long periods of autonomy before the 20th Century and many Tibetans remain loyal to the Dalai Lama, who fled in 1959.

Boycott of the Olympics?
Doubtful.

Seriously, what the fuck were they thinking to hold the Olympics in China.

China Blocks YouTube After Videos of Tibet Protests Are Posted
The Associated Press

Monday 17 March 2008

Beijing - Internet users in China were blocked from seeing YouTube.com on Sunday after dozens of videos about protests in Tibet appeared on the popular American video Web site.

The blocking added to the Communist government's efforts to control what the public saw and heard about protests that erupted Friday in the Tibetan capital, Lhasa, against Chinese rule.

Apparently the Chinese have not read-

Access to YouTube.com, usually readily available in China, was blocked after videos appeared on the site Saturday showing foreign news reports about the Lhasa demonstrations, montages of photos and scenes from Tibet-related protests abroad.

you mean like this?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApyJUV6Ukuo[/youtube]

Oh and... by the way.... Fuck China

There were no protest scenes posted on China-based video Web sites like as 56.com, youku.com and tudou.com.

The Chinese government has not commented on its move to prevent access to YouTube. Internet users trying to call up the Web site were presented with a blank screen.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BetFWN1dMEg&feature=related[/youtube]

Chinese leaders encourage Internet use for education and business but use online filters to block access to material considered subversive or pornographic.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ifacnc5iQs&feature=related[/youtube]

Foreign Web sites run by news organizations and human rights groups are regularly blocked if they carry disapproved information. Operators of China-based online bulletin boards are required to monitor their content and enforce censorship.

I wonder if NMA is banned in China?
If so - Fuck China.

China has at least 210 million Internet users, according to the government, and is expected to overtake the United States soon to have the biggest population of Web users.

Beijing tightened controls on online video with rules that took effect Jan. 30 and limited video-sharing to state-owned companies.

Regulators backtracked a week later, apparently worried they might disrupt a growing industry, and said private companies that were already operating legally could continue. They said any new competitors would be bound by the more stringent restrictions.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Y9jA68Mo8&feature=related[/youtube]

 

[The Vault Dweller]

Yes this is sad once again.

I wonder if their uprising coincides with the Olympics to be held in China this year on purpose? I would bet they think that China will be afraid to crackdown on them for fear of facing anger by the various nations of the world and a boycott or at withdrawal of their athletes from the games. Unfortunately it seems China doesn't care about that or they think that the nations of the world are so eager to be presented at the Olympics that they'd never boycott them. Such a shame.

I for one would refuse to go as an athlete under the circumstances. Of course I haven't trained countless hard hours to go so I doubt any athletes would actually share my opinion.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller

 

[Ravager69]

Well, since my country is still trying to raise from the ruins the communism left us in, I say fuck every country with communistic goverment. Including China. And they want to make the Olympics....

And fuck Russia for bringing that horrible way of governing to life.

 

[Slaughter Manslaught]

China is nothing but a scum-bag hole where red clowns rule and kill people and fuck women. They know nothing about human rights. Those that try to say something about their monstrous atrocities are silenced. Someone should put down those mad communist dogs.

 

[Neamos]

I don't think the Tibetans have much hope.

Uh, Tibetians are a minority in Tibet now, they have no hope.

Too bad communism was never implanted correctly, this stuff shouldn't happen.

 

[alec]

Honestly, these days I think the best foreign policy for China is two words.

Fuck China.

This would be the right moment for our so-called democratic leaders to tell China that they might as well stop demolishing their cultural heritage and slums for tasteless Olympic megastructures, because guess what? We ain't sending our athletes to a country that oppresses minorities and pollutes like crazy (among other things).

Then again, we all know that in a democracy economic gain outweighs common sense.

I for one would refuse to go as an athlete under the circumstances. Of course I haven't trained countless hard hours to go so I doubt any athletes would actually share my opinion.

Last thing I heard is that lots of foreign athletes have received a list with instructions on how to behave in China. One thing our democratic leaders don't want them to do (under any circumstances) is to vent their opinions about Chinese politics. A good athlete is now officially an ostrich. Crazy times.

 

[welsh]

To be honest, we have other countries that have Olympic facilities that are still operational. Its short notice but I think it would be way cool if there was an international olympics, with China being excluded.

You could do it all over Europe- Have the athletes meet an an opening ceremony- maybe in Korea, and then give them a couple of days to move to the sites and televise from all over the world.

 

[welsh]

Double post-

Crush Tibet: China's only path
The Dalai Lama's spiritual power terrifies Beijing. Might, not persuasion, is its only response
Rosemary Righter

The rails carrying China's showcase high-altitude train to Tibet began sinking into melting permafrost within months of its triumphant opening two years ago. This was no mere technical setback for a pioneering engineering feat; for Beijing, it was essential for the Qinghai-Lhasa railway to function perfectly because it was above all things a political project. Conceived a century ago by Sun Yat-sen, the father of the revolution, the point of finally realising his near-impossible and hugely expensive dream was to set the final seal on China's benevolent “embrace” of Tibet.

That official narrative of unity and harmony between China and Tibet, exposed to the world as a sham as anti-Chinese resentment boils over in Tibetan monasteries and towns far across western China, is vitally important to Beijing for two reasons.

The first is that China has never really been able to control Tibet. China's rulers have always felt the need to do so because Tibet's vast expanses command China's western flank and its borders with India, and also because of the huge influence of Tibetan Buddhism in Mongolia and throughout the northern border regions beyond the Great Wall.

Tibet has been a thorn in China's side ever since the Tang dynasty, when the two fought for two centuries before concluding, in 821, a treaty that, invoking the heavenly bodies, established “a great era when Tibetans shall be happy in Tibet and Chinese shall be happy in China”.

That has never quite been the case. When the last imperial dynasty collapsed in 1911, Tibet swiftly declared independence. One of Mao's first acts after 1949 was to beat Tibet into line.

The second reason why Beijing needs Tibet to be convincingly pacified is ideological. For many people, China has become an easier and freer place to live over the past 20 years, but it remains the case that the Communist Party cannot tolerate any belief system that even implicitly challenges its monopoly over “right thinking”.

Example- Falun Gong.

This is, if anything, even more true today than it was, because with the demise of Maoism and, now, the jettisoning of Marxist-Leninism, the party lacks a belief system of its own to buttress its legitimacy. Hence the party's pathological persecution of the eccentric but harmless Falun Gong religious sect. Hence its increasingly harsh control of religious practice in Tibet, where Zhang Qingli, the Tibet Party Secretary sent there two years ago by President Hu Jintao, declared on his arrival a “fight to the death struggle” against the Dalai Lama.

SO first Falun Gong, then Tibetan Buddhists... Who's next. Muslims? Catholics? Christians? Jews?

The Chinese are paranoid about the Dalai Lama for essentially the same reasons that the rest of the world respects him: as the humbly persuasive spiritual leader of a leading world religion whose lack of temporal power diminishes in no way the loyalty and love he commands. He is the main reason why China's methods of ethnic colonisation, fairly effective with other minorities, have failed in Tibet. Not only is Tibetan culture too far removed from Chinese for assimilation to be feasible; it revolves around religious loyalties that the State cannot reach.

Because the Dalai Lama is at the centre of these loyalties, Beijing considers him a dangerously subversive political agitator. They are appalled that he only has to make an address far away in India and his people obey; as when he advised Tibetans to stop wearing fur to save wild animals from extinction, and people rushed out to join public fur burnings. Two years ago rumours that he was returning swept Qinghai province and overnight thousands headed for the great monastery at Kumbum to greet him. To Beijing, this confirms what a danger he is.

At the same time the Chinese might be thinking that the consumerism they offer upper class Chinese is no longer enough.

Except- that's not quite true.

200 million Chinese live on less than 1 dollar a day. 40% live on less than $2 a day.

Think about that. Six hundred million people live on less than $800 a year.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=35205
That's fucking slavery.

The Dalai Lama talks about the Tibet problem in terms of “the identity of a people”. On this, if nothing else, Beijing agrees. It can end resistance in Tibet only by destroying Tibetan identity. It is deliberately swamping the population with Han Chinese and other immigrants, imposing “patriotic education” and Chinese-language qualifications for jobs, and stifling - other than as tourist exhibits - Tibet's customs. The Dalai Lama seeks for Tibetans the autonomy to which they are lawfully entitled as an “autonomous region” of China. But that would up-end Beijing's strategy. That is why China's leaders accuse him of inciting Tibetans to challenge, they say, the “stability of the State”.

The first tumbrils rolled through Lhasa yesterday, hours before the deadline for “criminals” to turn themselves in or be hunted down, parading handcuffed prisoners with their heads forced down by soldiers. Troops are fanning out through the neighbouring provinces of Sichuan, Gansu and Qinghai. Foreigners are being bundled out of Lhasa.

But Beijing will not keep the crackdown entirely secret. This is not only because it cannot - news has mobile wings in today's China - but because smashing dissent in Tibet would warn off the many other dissidents - farmers, migrants, the flotsam of unemployed - tempted to try their Olympics-year luck.

And that's why the West has to protest this.

Inside China, cracking heads in Tibet has up to now been pretty risk-free; few Chinese, shamefully, have much sympathy for Tibetans. Outside China, China's leaders are gambling that foreign protests will subside, as they have over Burma, in time to avert Olympic boycotts. Have they guessed wrong? I remember Sir Percy Cradock, then Margaret Thatcher's foreign policy adviser, sitting in Downing Street complacently murmuring “when the dust has settled” when it was fresh blood, not dust, they were scraping off the walls around Tianamen Square. To say “nothing must wreck the Olympics” after this would be much the same thing.

Rosemary Righter is associate editor

of The Times

 

[Brother None]

You're jumping to some remarkable conclusions considering there has been no accurate news on what's going on, aren't you, welsh?

I mean, the media are blacked out, and all they're getting is propaganda. You are being incredibly naive if you think that:
- The Tibetans are being honest.
- The Tibetan government in exile did not either instigate or influence these riots.

Look, the most likely case scenario here is that Tibet is getting desperate and thinks this cry of attention will help. So yes, they instigated the riots, for that purpose. China's pissed and will crush these riots.

And that's shit-luck, but it's not like anyone is really going to push for the liberation of Tibet at this point. So de facto all Tibet is doing is exacerbating an already bad situation.

Tibet has 17% economic growth, y'know. All this story that all this goes to the Chinese? Is bullshit.

The Tibetan culture is dying, and that's shit. If they want cultural autonomy the best idea might not be to go and cry for independence, though. The Dalai Lama seems to realize this. which is probably why he's playing a double hand.

I wish people would fucking learn at some point. But they never do.

Also, I hate this politicizing of the Olympics, again. Did it ever occur to all the asstards out there that maybe if we didn't make a big deal out of the Olympics going to "wrong" countries all the time, then maybe those countries couldn't exploit the Olympics as some kind of self-justification? If you drop the politicizing of the Olympics, then the Olympic hosting can't be exploited by China for political gains anymore. Tadaah, all the problems solved, and just by you shutting the hell up.

 

[welsh]

Nope.

Fuck the Chinese Government.

Remember, this is a country where 600 Million people live on less than $2 a day. That's some serious poverty. And here's the thing, That number is higher than it was 10 years ago. So tell me, where is all this remarkable GNP growth going?

As for the Tibetans, I'll agree that they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I am not sayiing "Free Tibet" but I think an increased autonomy for the Tibetans isn't asking for much. That Tibetan culture may be in decline may have a something to do with the Chinese trying to destroy it.

And honestly, if the Tibetans are taking advantage of the Olympics to raise awareness, good for them. And even if the Tibetans instigated violence (and the evidence of that is inconclusive at best), then fine. Because no one was going to shit for them unless they pushed it.

Why? Because generally peaceful movements have failed to work unless there was some hint of future violence that influenced those in power to offer concessions. Would Ghandi's campaign worked with Nehru? Would Martin Luther King have succeeded without the Black militants? I doubt it.

If China were a democracy, than there might be a better chance. Its possible that the Chinese people might see these displays on the TV and ask themselves, "What kind of fucking animals are we to do this?" This happened when the English found out that Indians were getting beaten by British soldiers for collecting salt. This happened when Americans watched blacks getting attacked by police storm troopers and attack dogs on their evening news.

But China doesn't have that because the government won't allow opposition and it will repress news if its against them.

Why the fuck support these pricks who are fucking their own people as well as the Tibetans? Dude, 600 million people poorer today then they were 10 years ago. What the Fuck? And this from one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

So yes, this repression isn't just targeted against the Tibetans but every other social group that might protest China's policy while it shows off that it got the Olympics.

And simply ignoring the Olympics as an international event without significance won't work. Why, because its status quo already that the Olympics matter.

Frankly, I could've given a flying fuck who gets the Olympics, but the Chinese have grabbed the opportunity to utilize the Olympics to show how big a power they are. Never mind that Greece had the Olympics not so long ago and Greece is still a bit player in the world.

Nope, the Chinese have gone to the length of showing this off that its a big participant in the world.

Yet, everything thing the Chinese do is simply for domestic purposes to keep the Chinese Communist Party in power. And that power is fragile. When the government tried to impose some controls on their stock market their was an economic crisis that trickled over into other markets. And this was over some reasonable controls.

So what would happened if most of the Western Democracies boycotted the Olympics?
What if Russia was the only country to come?

What would that do to the Chinese economy? And might not the Chinese get the hint that enough is enough?

So yeah, Fuck the Chinese.

Boycott the Olympics and let the Chinese Communist Party feel a sting.

Because unless the countries of the developed west stop sucking Chinese cock than we have no one but ourselves to blame when they finally fuck us.

Sorry, but those fuckers are barbarians, and we shouldn't play games with them.

 

[welsh]

Sounds like the Europeans are thinking of boycotting the Olympics too-

EU Parliament head urges political boycott of Olympics
March 18, 2008 - 7:54PM
Source: ABC

The President of the European Parliament has urged politicians to consider boycotting the Beijing Olympic Games to protest against China's crackdown on demonstrations in Tibet.

Anti-China protests in Lhasa, the biggest in almost two decades, turned ugly on Friday and exiled representatives of Tibet in India have said as many as 80 people died.

President Hans-Gert Poettering told German radio politicians who had planned to attend the opening ceremony of the Games in August should reconsider, adding he was not ruling out a wider boycott.

"It is too early to say how things will end up but one should keep all options open," Mr Poettering said.

Mr Poettering, a member of German Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative Christian Democrats (CDU), attacked China's response to the monk-led protests in Tibet.

"We cannot agree with what is happening in Tibet. The Chinese must realise that," he said, adding repression and curbs to freedom of expression must stop if the Olympic Games were to be a success.

"We must send a signal to Beijing," he said.

Ms Merkel, along with other western leaders, has called on Beijing to exercise restraint but has refrained from calling for an outright boycott of the Olympic Games.
Dalai Lama accusations

China says the Dalai Lama is behind violent uprisings in Tibet, but exiled Tibetans of every stripe say no one outside the region is coordinating the protests.

A spokesman for the Dalai Lama, the Tibetans' exiled spiritual leader, said the unrest spread because people were frustrated with the situation.

"What can I say, these are baseless accusations," Tenzin Taklha said.

"It started off with just one or two incidents. Because of technology, because of word of mouth, word quickly spread. This was very spontaneous."

The Dalai Lama says he will resign as Tibetan leader if violence gets out of control in Tibet.

"If things become out of control then my only option is to completely resign," he told a news conference at his base of Dharamsala in northern India.

Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao made the accusations at his annual news conference in Beijing.

"There is ample fact and plenty of evidence proving this incident was organised, premeditated, masterminded and incited by the Dalai clique," Mr Wen said.

"This has all the more revealed the consistent claims by the Dalai clique that they pursue not independence but peaceful dialogue are nothing but lies.

"Their hypercritic lies cannot cover the ironclad facts."

The Dalai Lama, who fled to India in 1959, wants autonomy for Tibet within China but not outright independence.

Premier Wen also said China is not cracking down on dissidents in an effort to silence them ahead of the Olympics Games.

"As for the critics' view that China is trying to increase its efforts to arrest dissidents before the Olympic Games, I think such accusations are totally unfounded," he said.

"There is no such question at all."

Mr Wen also indicated that foreign journalists may be allowed back into Tibet, but he gave no timeframe amid criticism that the remote region had been sealed off amid unrest there.

"We would certainly consider the possibility of organising for foreign media to go to Tibet," he said.

- Reuters/AFP

Didn't the Dalai Lama say that his records were open for investigation if he prompted the Olympics.

ANd lets be honest, the Tibetan Buddhists have been doing lots of protests over the past year.

 

[Ravager69]

The history goes in cirlcles - remember Olympics in 1936?

 

[Brother None]

Remember, this is a country where 600 Million people live on less than $2 a day. That's some serious poverty. And here's the thing, That number is higher than it was 10 years ago. So tell me, where is all this remarkable GNP growth going?

Worldwide, 1 billion people live on less than 1 USD a day. Half the world lives on less than 2 USD a day. 600 million Chinese would be half the Chinese. So they're par the course worldwide, no?

There are 200 million Chinese living below the poverty line. There are 300 million Indians living below the poverty line. Why rag on China, but not on India? Oh, you like them because they're democratic? Well, their 25% below poverty line percentage sure is a great sign of democracy.

Not to talk up their government, but there's a lot worse out there.

You think spreading wealth is easy? Even Russia's extensive social network doesn't mean the disparity between wealthy and poor isn't becoming worse there.

China's got its priorities all wrong, and it's screwing up on a lot of things, but it's not an exception. Currently, it's got a lot wrong on the end of where to put the money from its economic reforms, but that doesn't take away that the GDP growth is there and people are profiting from it. Not all the people, and not necessarily the right people. That needs to change, sure. Hell, I'd love to see more people care about Chinese farmers. But we don't, only about a bunch of Tibetans.

I am not sayiing "Free Tibet" but I think an increased autonomy for the Tibetans isn't asking for much.

It might not be, but regardless, they're not going to get it this way.

This? This is convincing the Chinese they need to crack down harder. What happens then? End of a people. Piss them off more and they'll end it more. Tibet is a thorn in China's side.

What method of national self-assertion has worked in these cases? The Hungarian Ausgleich has. The Chechen protests haven't. So why are we repeating the latter over the former? Shouldn't these people think about what they want and can't get, rather than hasten their own doom?

I thought people were paying attention during the Chechen War. Apparently not. You don't think the Chinese capable of genocide? Think again.

Why the fuck support these pricks who are fucking their own people as well as the Tibetans?

Ah, that's where you're getting me wrong. I'm not supporting dick. But I'm being a realist, you're being a bleeding heart, and your attitude will really not help anyone, because it's too unrealistic.

Besides, I'm being cautious here. There's just not a lot of information out there and a hell of a lot of jumping to conclusions.

And simply ignoring the Olympics as an international event without significance won't work. Why, because its status quo already that the Olympics matter.

'coz of you bleeding hearts, it is.

 

[welsh]

What, you're holding up Russia as a model of wealth distribution? Bullshit.

And yes, it matters that half of China's population lives in poverty. This is the country whose economy has been growing for nearly 30 years at 8% growth per year.

And while most other developing countries have managed to reduce the numbers in poverty, China has been exceptional in its ability to increase the rates of poverty.

So no, you're wrong BN, China is exceptional in this. More people are being driven to poverty in China than are being made rich each year.

I can see a country where globalization has reduced growth, or a country like India where growth remains poor and the country is divided by ethnic divisions and class divisions and castes. It sucks that these folks are poor.

But how many other countries have maintained growth rates of upwards of 8% for 30 years and still manages to impoverish half its population.

You want to be a realist, then at least pay attention to that- China, despite its growth, has managed to impoverish most of its people.

What the FUck? And you're defending these pricks? Dude, these people make people poor, they repress dissent, they sustain a communist party in power that survives only because it makes a small faction of that society rich.

Is that a bleeding heart? Yeah maybe. But so what. At least there's a soul there. Maybe if there were a soul running China half its people wouldn't be impoverished.

Ausgleich? -

Ferenc Deák, a Hungarian statesman, who had broken with Lajos Kossuth after the unsuccessful 1848 Hungarian revolution, was the primary intellectual force behind the compromise. Deák's main motive was to unite the Habsburg dominions for once and all by giving in to most of the liberal Hungarian demands, and to give Hungary a stake in continued union with the Austrian crown; because the Austrian half of the empire contained a larger share of the population and wealth, treating the two halves as politically equal enhanced the power of the Hungarian half and also ended, for the time being, fears from the Austrian half of having to chose between granting either the Slavs or the Magyars greater rights. Because it left the military essentially as it had been previously, and because it resolved, temporarily, the racial tensions within the empire, the compromise was tolerated by the Emperor and the nobles on both sides.

And-

The compromise granted the Hungarian government in Buda (subsequently Budapest) equal legal status to the Austrian government in Vienna, while the common monarch retained responsibility for the army, navy, foreign policy, and customs union. The compromise was made with the suggestion of the Habsburg family as an attempt to shore up Hungarian support for the monarchy in the wake of the Austro-Prussian War, as well as dampen the internal discontent of various other nationalities of the Empire.

Saving an empire from internal collapse = prevent future violence to the ruling class.

 

[Ravager69]

Brother None tell me, could you enjoy sitting in a chinese stadium and watching the olympics, knowing that perhaps somewhere near you people are getting thrown out of their home, die of hunger or are getting repressed or even killed for speaking their minds? That the institution that is suppose to watch over and care for it's citizens is doing exactly the opposite?

Other countries *need* to act or China will do as it pleases, that's what European Union and NATO is for, after all. USA should make a harsh statemant about this.

BTW check out the Russia's response to the whole matter, shows how civilized they became over the years.

*edit* I re-edited the posts and deleted the over-reacted part.

 

[Brother None]

What, you're holding up Russia as a model of wealth distribution? Bullshit.

Bullshit...compared to what?

Russia has a fairly good system to spread wealth from top to bottom. Yet it doesn't.

And yes, it matters that half of China's population lives in poverty. This is the country whose economy has been growing for nearly 30 years at 8% growth per year.

So has the Indian economy. And the Russian one has been doing much the same.

I see some interesting boundaries on your choice of who to condemn.

And while most other developing countries have managed to reduce the numbers in poverty, China has been exceptional in its ability to increase the rates of poverty.

Historically? You know that's nonsense. Historically there are two truisms. One is that developing countries have an increased rate of poverty as long as the government does nothing to stop this, this was true of Europe and the US and is just as true of China, and historically any country in transition tends more towards poverty than wealth - like the CIS countries.

So no, you're wrong BN, China is exceptional in this. More people are being driven to poverty in China than are being made rich each year.

The same is true for Russia, of many CIS countries, and of several Middle Eastern countries. They're not exceptional at all, they're just the most glaring example.

or a country like India where growth remains poor

...?

India has a real growth rate of 9.6%

Also, you're okay with castes but get all moral about this shit? wtf?

But how many other countries have maintained growth rates of upwards of 8% for 30 years and still manages to impoverish half its population.

The Soviets did in the early 20th century.

China hasn't maintained growth rates of upwards 8% for 30 years. It hit lows far below 8% in 1982 and 1989-1991, and sunk down again in 1999-2000.

But yes, it'll be at the level of a low-average developed country in GDP/capita in 2020.

However, your question is a strange one. What if I ask you how it's possible for a country to be the world's leading economy for a century and still manage to have 12% of the population living below the poverty line? Would you condemn that country too?

China, despite its growth, has managed to impoverish most of its people.

I never said they didn't. That's what you appear to be missing. I'm objecting to making this unclear Tibetan bit a focal point, I'm objecting against ignoring the plight of farmers totally and then suddenly all turn into bleeding hearts when the Dalai Lama shows his ugly ponce, I'm also objecting to jumping to conclusions.

And I find it interesting that Tibet brings such hair-tearing annoying irrational reactions. To me, it looks like everyone just wants to rip their shirt and go ULULULULU and then they'll feel morally ok again. You did everything you could, didn't you?

And you're defending these pricks?

Oh, man, totally, y'know when I said "I'm not supporting dick", I bet I actually meant "I'm supporting China". That's totally what I'm doing.

Is that a bleeding heart? Yeah maybe. But so what. At least there's a soul there. Maybe if there were a soul running China half its people wouldn't be impoverished.

*sniffle*

That was beautiful, man.

Y'know, for a course at the uni I now have to read a book of recently stated opinions on controversial issues. Y'know, recent newspaper clippings on Muslim profiling, that kind of stuff. I noticed more and more the newspaper writers have a tendency to go off on some emotional tangent rather than face the issue. I found it fascinating.

Saving an empire from internal collapse = prevent future violence to the ruling class.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

The Ausgleich was interesting because it was primarily about recognizing the dominance of state over nation (!) and the importance of national cultural integrity. Whether it was intended to do that is a secondary question, though many Hungarian intellectuals saw it that way.

Amusingly enough, those Hungarians then went on for a forced Magyarization of the other peoples of Hungary.

Regardless, I'm unsure of what you are trying to say.

Brother None tell me, could you enjoy sitting in a chinese stadium and watching the olympics, knowing that perhaps somewhere near you people are getting thrown out of their home, die of hunger or are getting repressed or even killed for speaking their minds? That the institution that is suppose to watch over and care for it's citizens is doing exactly the opposite?

Ravager69 tell me, do you like buying Chinese products, knowing that in the course of making those people are getting thrown out of their home, die of hunger or are getting repressed or even killed for speaking their minds? That the institution that is suppose to watch over and care for it's citizens is doing exactly the opposite?

Hey, that's interesting, it's almost like Chinese production growth is what made the Chinese government choose to destroy entire villages.

But oh no, if we boycott the Olympics, somehow the entire fact that it's us who are propping up this regime will be all right.

Stop being a hypocrite, and don't even pretend that boycotting makes it all ok.

BTW check out the Russia's response to the whole matter, shows how civilized they became over the years.

Russia never likes secessions. There's a reason for that. Pure realpolitik.

 

[Ravager69]

I wouldn't mind if my country's companies had their facilities here, it'd give lot of work for people and would benefit all. Sure the stuff would get more expensive, but we would be a bit richer as well. It's not my fault that people try to minimilaze production costs in every possible way, so don't blame me for it. Like I have a choice on where my clothes or toys are made.

Now the Olympics is a completly diffrent matter. I know they should be apolitical, but they are also a great chance to show China the finger for what they're doing to their own citizens.

I have a bad feeling about this. Shortly after the olympics in Germany, WW II broke out.

And as for Russia....their goverment is on the level of animals right now - look at Bieslan or Kosovo. Look at the recent history of that country, the waste it laid in this century, the number of people it killed for *nothing*. Not much has change there, not that they try to do anything. Praise Putin.

So - fuck Russia, fuck China.

P.S. no offense to russian people here, but your goverment is acting like a bunch of assholes.

 

[alec]

It's discussions like these that remind me of some very wise words by a very wise man called Ford Madox Ford: "If you are out to sweep a whole system away the details of that system are unimportant."

So yeah: fuck China. And while we're at it, fuck Russia as well.

You want to be a realist, then at least pay attention to that- China, despite its growth, has managed to impoverish most of its people.

A couple of weeks ago, there was a very interesting documentary about the "nouveaux riches" in China on Belgian television. The reporter asked one of these nouveaux riches what life was all about. The Chinese guy (nice tuxedo, shiny shoes) simply answered: "Good wine, nice cars and paintings."

A few kilometres down the road the Chinese government was tearing down an ancient Chinese neighbourhood to make way for modern villas, hybrid structures reminiscent of Italian and French architecture.

The original inhabitants of the neighbourhood were simply ordered to move out and go find their luck and prosperity elsewhere.

Sometimes, when you talk about progress, it's a good thing to forget about numbers and percentages and look at the eyes of people instead. Progress often means nothing else than "more tears".

 

[Brother None]

I wonder where Starseeker is for all this. He tried to put some flames under the China-debate here, but for some reason no one cares unless it's weepy monks.

So yeah: fuck China. And while we're at it, fuck Russia as well.

Sure, fuck 'em right in the ass? Why not?

Look, I think you guys are misreading me. I'm not pro the government of either China or Russia, but I do recognize that both, while having dangerous trends, also represent positive developments in their respective countries, even if the media here can't always recognise that (see: nonsense vis-a-vis Russia).

Fuck 'em, that's basically right. But that's basically the same as fucking a prostitute. Sure, it may be fun, but the world will be no better off when you're done. Hell, the world might even have a VD.

The Chinese guy (nice tuxedo, shiny shoes) simply answered: "Good wine, nice cars and paintings."

What a tard. Everyone knows the real answer is "To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you and to hear the lamentation of the women."

Now the Olympics is a completly diffrent matter. I know they should be apolitical, but they are also a great chance to show China the finger for what they're doing to their own citizens.

Ah, geee, a better sign might be not propping up their government or, hell, putting all of America's foreign debt into their hands. Because they already own the US now, boycotting any Olympics won't matter for dick.

 

[DarkCorp]

First off I want to say that I am American first and foremost. I do not support China in any way.

However, I do understand why China needs to crack down on Tibet. A nation will never be secure unless it first quells internal chaos. A free Tibet means a nation that could potentially harbor terrorists or serve as a staging point for disruptive actions against the PRC.

Imagine if Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska and N & S Dakota sudden decided they want total autonomy. That means that if they wanted to, those said autonomous states could allow forces hostile to the United States entry and serve as a staging point for disruptive behavior. Not only that, the USA would literally be cut in half and that would cause all sorts of problems.

Look at Europe for a better example. The continent has been perpetually at war for the longest time. Now imagine how things would have turned out if Europe was united into one national entity with all its resources used for one national goal.

United we stand divided we fall right?

Why has China been picked on for the longest time? Because the country had not been able to stand up united against imperialist aggressors.

So would I say fuck China, I would say yeah. However, I think China is doing a damn good job of trying to move itself forward from the destructive policies of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. Remember, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Lastly, I was reading a Time article on Putin. It seems that although the state is heavy handed, sometimes these measures are necessary to show the government means business. Currently, Russia is estimated to be well on its way to stabilization and is considered much closer to its old superpower status.

PS:

People love to trash on China but what about the United States? What about Great Britain? Rome? Nazi Germany? Japan? How about all those other supposedly "civilized" countries that butchered thousands for the sake of enriching themselves. Talk about blatant hypocrisy.

What about the days of the robber barons? How about racial bigotry? The Native Americans? Sexism in America and the world in general? If you look closely at each country, they have all been found guilty one time or another. Again blatant hypocrisy.

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone I suppose.