MutantScalper
Dogmeat
I prefer Europe and European values to those of USA, Russia or China.
And if push comes to shove, I'm pretty certain that Europe (even minus UK) could muster a very significant war fighting force if needed.
Conservative or Liberal
- Thread starter Fizzycswag
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I prefer Europe and European values to those of USA, Russia or China.
And if push comes to shove, I'm pretty certain that Europe (even minus UK) could muster a very significant war fighting force if needed.
GonZo_626
Well Shit!
No but your "friends" back then had no problem with mass bombing cities..... and yes we turned a boat load of Jewish people away back then due to some racist perceptions at the time. It happened we have apologized to the Jewish community for what happened back then and admit our mistakes, not try to justify them. My country is also one of the few supporting Isreal nowadays, can the Fin's say that? Are you not a big supporter of socialism? Seems the commies won anyway and you allied with genocidal maniacs anyway cause you were scared of commies and Russians. I am also of Ukrainian descent so I have a full understanding of the USSR and there holocausts as well. I don't support socialism as it killed 5000000 Ukranians. Now the US has not quite committed that level of murder (there is something to say about Native Americans).
And yes the Lapland war (really still WW2 silly Finns) where you surrendered to the commies and let the Germans leave, quite a war...…
If you cant tell your country is no better and in the past probably worse then the Americans have been. The Americans don't purposely kill brown babies, collaterally damage does, and this happens in all conflicts no matter the countries involved. Civilian causalities happen and at least the Americans try to keep them to a minimum, cant be said about either your allies or your occupiers you surrendered to. No country is without innocent blood on there hands, but at least some try to reduce that. Maybe you should look at that and quit trying to defend fucked up decisions your country made 70 years ago. Also those Eurpoean values have been ensured and protected by red, white, and blue blood.
MutantScalper
Dogmeat
That's right, just as Ukraine was able to stay neutral in between Nazi Germany and Soviet Union.
OH, WAIT...
They weren't. Yet you try to say that because Finland wasn't able to fight off both Soviets and Nazis at the same time that Finland is as guilty in today's world of war crimes, massacres etc. as USA is? That's B.S. and if you have such a hard on for USA maybe you should go live there instead of Canada.
USA has waged big wars in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (x2), Afghanistan (ongoing, as is Iraq), dirty wars, used torture, etc. This is the same as WW 2 era stuff? What about using nuclear bombs, bombing civiliand in Japan, France, Germany, Holland, etc. that USA did in WW 2? Or even WW 1 stuff, the earlier wars, wiping out Native Americans, etc.
GonZo_626
Well Shit!
I am saying all Countries have a dark side and you didn't fight off shit, you surrendered to the Russians and let the Germans get away. I am saying that I can bet you used torture during your wars and you totally fought dirty as well. I am saying your country has innocent blood on its hand as well or did you fight all your wars with zero civilian causalities?
And the US has waged all those wars with its allies, including European countries.
Korea - UN/NATO fighting commies yes Europeans were there
Vietnam - started by the French
Afghanistan first time - invaded by the USSR, the UK helped arm all those mujahidin's as well. (also thank the UK and France for this and pretty much all the middle east is nowadays.
Iraq first time - UN effort as they invaded a neighbor
Afghanistan again - they attacked the US
Iraq again - Really you believe that leaving a genocidal dictator in charge is a good idea? I am sure the Kurd's will agree with you....
WW 1 and 2 - caused by European values..... but yeah Americans..., and Japan asked for it, I don't remember the US wanting a war, in fact they tried very hard to not involve themselves and were attacked for it.
Nukes - a deterrent is no good unless you are prepared to use it at least once. And look Japan learnt not to fuck around and are now solid allies of the US.
Native Americans - European colonialism at its finest, unless you fully believe that those Europeans turned into blood thirsty murderers when they stepped foot onto North American soil...…
Also lets bring up some of the real American atrocities that you don't bring up. Panama, Cuba, CIA cocaine.
So it looks to me that you are looking at it with nothing but a hate the USA attitude and Europe can do no harm
MutantScalper
Dogmeat
We are a small country that fought it's last war over 70 years ago and was able to maintain it's independence while fighting off two huge aggressive nations. USA is a big nation that also fought in WW 2, fire bombed, carpet bombed and nuclear bombed civilians. Murdered POW's etc. Committed rapes in the areas they were in. Etc.
AND, and here's the thing, THEY ARE STILL DOING IT. You see that's the big difference.
Edit. Oh and BTW, isn't Ukraine also fighting a war right now? That would make Finland a better and more 'righteous' nation than Ukraine.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Never forget the Grenada Genocide either, eh? Dark days for humanity they were.
Seriously though, painting a very incomplete picture of very complicated events with no context or regard for intent really adds nothing of value son.
In light of all America's transgressions and war crimes.
Ask yourself.
Why were Germans so eager to surrender to Americans at the end of WWII?
Why did North Korean POWs refuse repatriation after the war?
Why did every S. Viet Namese who could, get on a boat and leave for Cali while they could?
Why do Cubans risk hundreds of miles of shark infested waters to reach the shores of Florida every day?
Ask a Taiwanese person, a South Korean where they'd rather live.
As bad as you want to think America is, it's still vastly preferable to anyone with half a brain than the Soviets, Nazis, Chi-coms, Imperial Japanese, Kim Regime, Baathists, Viet Kong, Taliban etc. America sure can pick a good foil. Also, the World Wars, Korea and Viet Nam etc. are not wars of American aggression by any stretch of the imagination.
Seriously though, painting a very incomplete picture of very complicated events with no context or regard for intent really adds nothing of value son.
In light of all America's transgressions and war crimes.
Ask yourself.
Why were Germans so eager to surrender to Americans at the end of WWII?
Why did North Korean POWs refuse repatriation after the war?
Why did every S. Viet Namese who could, get on a boat and leave for Cali while they could?
Why do Cubans risk hundreds of miles of shark infested waters to reach the shores of Florida every day?
Ask a Taiwanese person, a South Korean where they'd rather live.
As bad as you want to think America is, it's still vastly preferable to anyone with half a brain than the Soviets, Nazis, Chi-coms, Imperial Japanese, Kim Regime, Baathists, Viet Kong, Taliban etc. America sure can pick a good foil. Also, the World Wars, Korea and Viet Nam etc. are not wars of American aggression by any stretch of the imagination.
MutantScalper
Dogmeat
Ok you raise some interesting well not points but let me say softballs so I'll indulge you with an answer.
You still think Grenada was a joke? I'm beginning to understand the US mentality about war and conflicts and why they are and have been in perpetual war for their entire existence.
- Germans surrendered to Americans because they thought they might be treated nicer. Maybe, because of geography, they didn't get to rampage on USA mainland that much and did worse things to Soviets they thought that USA might treat them better. Not for lack of trying though, check out Operations Drumbeat 1 and 2.
Having said that, even average soldiers might end up getting hanged in Nurnberg and other similar trials under the western allied. It was very haphazard and brutal. At the same time USA with OSS/CIA ratlines got the 'valuable' Nazis into USA to work for them in military technology to help USA get the genocidal Vietnam war going or to work for West Germany etc. High level ex Nazis like the chief of espionage in Nazi Germany continued in his job in West Germany. Think about it.
- North Koreans surrendered to USA? So what? Yanks also surrendered to North Koreans and stayed in North Korea. Btw did you know that many of the Chinese forces that yanks moved down and thought they are heroes for doing so were actually Chiang Kai-shek's former troops, now Mao's POW's? You think the Chinese were dumb?
- About the South Vietnamese boat refugess, that's really interesting. According to estimates, about half a million South Vietnamese refugees died in the effort to leave Vietnam. At sea, more died at land later. Why wasn't USA helping them? Didn't you guys have, like, boats in the area? Oh wait, you guys didn't treat the South Vietnamese too well during the war either, massacring South Vietnamese villages, raping women, children etc. so...yea.
- Cuba is a poor country made so by USA sanctions? Still, Cuba has a longer lifespan than many comparable nations in the region and, yes, they have UHC and many aspects of it are much much better than anything the US has to offer.
- South East Asia is full of stuff like no unions (CIA murdered many union leaders there, wiped out unions) and past crimes by USA in Korean War, Vietnam War haven't been settled or even looked into, etc. Plus Thailand has been made into the global center of human slave trade and child prostitution by the USA, etc. You go and ask if a Cambodian mother is happy her kid is forced into child prostitution in Thailand, eh? How about a little bit of that, eh?
I prefer Europe and European values to America and American values of wiping out native cultures, waging aggressive wars, indiscriminate bombings, use of all torture, destroying the natural world, etc. etc.
That's such an egozentric world view that I can't leave this uncommented. - I thought you're US American. So you're a Canadian? Eh. My bad.
I thought you have good education in the US? I understand somewhat that most citizens view their nation like as it would be the only existing entity on this planet and thinking very highly about themself and their nation, we all live in our own little bubbles and I guess Americans do have a good reason to think highly of them self in some aspects beeing a democracy, winning two world wars and creating one of the largest economies on this planet. But the idea that the US keps the World Peace allowing the whole world to prosper, or that it's even the reason for world peace in the first place?
Oh well. First, we havn't reached world peace, yet. We might be on our way to it, but it's far from secure. We could end up in a new world war or seeing larger conflicts coming up in the future, particularly if the predictions with the climate crysis happen to be true. Even the Pentagon is seeing this as a potentiall for new conflicts and trying to develope strategies and tactics on how to deal with it, an increase in climate refugees might destabilize whole regions as it has the potential to create one of the largest refugee crysis we've ever seen. A climate crysis that's mainly caused by western industrialisation and economies by the way. I would say the fact that we enjoyed peace for such a long time, had more to do with the experiences from WW2 - mainly that Europe got finally their shit together, overcoming this fucked up idea of being colonial powers and engaging in endless and pitty conflicts over a little border someone once draw on a map - and the existance of nuclear weapons was , which make wars a very risky endeavour, if the other side has a way to completely anihilate you, you might think twice about bombing the shit out of them. The idea, that Americans would be the better people in that respect, is ludicrous though. There are enough quotes and historical examples of US interventionalism and puting US interests over dimplomacy or peacy treaties and the well beeing of other nations. The US was definetly not some kind of inhumane dictatorship like the Soviet Union and it is a great place to live, compared to like 60% of the world. But, the US ledaership had no qualms of seeking confrontations and escalations, particularly with another Superpower like the Sovietunion even approving of wars and supporting dictatorships in all corners of the world (they still do, when ever it suits their interests). There are enough quotes by characters like Curtis LeMay, I quote "If 2 Americans and 1 Russian survive I consider this a victory", or "Oil is much too important a commodity to be left in the hands of Arabs" by Henry A. Kissinger and let us not even get into the whole Vietnam War and Nixons Mad Man theory expanding the war to neighbouring countries, which proably killed countless of Cambodians and leaving the nation in ruins. Or do you seriously believe that middle east is a better place today due to US interventions?
Seriously, I understand US patriotism, I really do, but there is fine and thin line between patriotism (My country can do better) and nationalism (My country can do no wrong!).
Most people today, see the US as the largest threat to world peace and like a bully in a school yard. And there is definetly a (good) reason for that. And yes, we get it China, Russia and pretty much any other other nation is just as bad, often worse. But that's whataboutism.
Oh? You definetly sounded like an American there. Anyway. My bad for making that assumption. However, looking at historical facts and human nature, is not a 'bias'. The US is a superpower and that means it also acts like one. Plane and simple. You can ask almost anyone in South America, the middle east or the Balkan about their opinion on it. We can also look at the very agressive NATO expansion that's a real threat to stability. Obviously that's not the fault of a single american and I don't blame them for the shitty policy of their leaders. But we shouldn't bullshit our selfs here at least.
If you have, as you say, a really unbiased view on it, then you must acknowledge the fact that you do have political groups in the US with a keen interst in keeping the US in power, at all cost. Or are you one of those people who believe Russia was the only bad guy in Ukraine? The side Europe and the US supported for years, are literal Nazis, they make our right wingers look like fucking children.
Dictatorships, you mean dictatorships. That's what your leadership usually installed, and quite often for no reason - like in South America where the Soviet presence was almost non existant before the US decieded to get involved - the Soviets made the same mistake in Africa though.
Ah well, I am curious how many wars in history have been started as 'pre-emtive' strike against the enemy. You see! We had to cause those civil wars/destablisation/fucking-up-of-economies/assasinations/etc. cuz Soviets! And what's the excuse today? Bin Laden? Putin? Do you see where this kind of thinking is leading you? A never ending cycle of justifications for military interventions which not only cost the lives of others but also the lives of americans and quote often you're not gaining any security. The support of the Iranian dictatorship lead to an Islamic revolution, Sadam who was massively supported by the US in Iraq became one of their enemies later. And there are countless of more examples where this policy of your government simply became a boomerang later. But hey, at least you wasted billions of dollars and countless of lives, so that companies like Halliburton or Boeing can make one more buck! It's also interesting how often it happens that characters/politicans like Dick Cheney end up to have a seat in the management of defence contractors or beeing somehow financially affiliated with them.
Just to say this, many US companies had very close ties to Germany before 1939, and even for some time into the war. So close, that even the President of the US saw a need to speak about it at some point, that this might come back to hurt them. Germany was supplied for years with very crucial resources for their military expansions by US Oil companies, like the antiknock agent tetraethyl, without it the Luftwaffe would have been pretty much grounded, this continued even after 1939 trough third party companies, till 1941 when Germany was in war with the US.
You can also look up IBMs involvement in the Holocaust or why Ford received a promotion by Hitler himself.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/secret-history-the-u-s-supported-and-inspired-the-nazis/5439236
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The US has a population of 325 milions people. Europe 741. California has a Bigger GDP than Italy and the same of France with a population on 40 milions while the two European country have a population of 60/66 ml people. Yet they manage to provide free Healthcare. Won't argue about China, but they have a population of a billion people, so it's a bit different.
America spends more than the combined military budgets of the World. 'nough said.
And if you didn't know, the US bases in Europe are seen as a leash. That's way they are disliked by local populations and governments. What you are talking about are just the collateral effects, as in their world domination attempts Europe also receives some kind of protection.
TheGM
The voice of reason
Holy shit this topic devolved into just America Makes me so Fucking MAD! *Masturbates furiously how about how much they hate America* - Mutant Scalper
It is 2004 all over again.
It is 2004 all over again.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I don't know if I would bring up things like genocide, conquest, exploitation, imperialism, or colonialism if I were making the case for European moral superiority. Unless you're willfully ignoring 2000+ years of history, or delusional.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Sublime
AGAIN, you can't lump the ENTIRE population of Europe together because each nation has their own ECONOMIES. What part of COP OUT did you miss?
California tried to do UHC by themselves, but again, the folks who attempted to do that/AKA Dems and Progressives, couldn't make it work because it would cost too much money. The only way would be to leave UHC a federal, not a state level, decision. Vermont couldn't make it work and its Bernie Sanders' home state.
Keep in mind France and Italy are sovereign nations, not states, that can use the full power of their economies to provides UHC. I don't know why the state budget folks couldn't make it work but it probably has to do with the provisions being too generous, shitty planning, or it just downright wouldn't work.
It is debatable how NATO is seen or how much a population wants it. AFAIK, Europe seems pretty power to the people so if the people didn't want NATO, european nations wouldn't be in it right now.
AGAIN, you can't lump the ENTIRE population of Europe together because each nation has their own ECONOMIES. What part of COP OUT did you miss?
California tried to do UHC by themselves, but again, the folks who attempted to do that/AKA Dems and Progressives, couldn't make it work because it would cost too much money. The only way would be to leave UHC a federal, not a state level, decision. Vermont couldn't make it work and its Bernie Sanders' home state.
Keep in mind France and Italy are sovereign nations, not states, that can use the full power of their economies to provides UHC. I don't know why the state budget folks couldn't make it work but it probably has to do with the provisions being too generous, shitty planning, or it just downright wouldn't work.
It is debatable how NATO is seen or how much a population wants it. AFAIK, Europe seems pretty power to the people so if the people didn't want NATO, european nations wouldn't be in it right now.
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MutantScalper
Dogmeat
Europe still has plenty of sorting to do with it's past. However, Europe isn't the main war faring nation or region in the world right now. That would be USA and has been for a long time.
TheGM
The voice of reason
Literally had fucking genocides going on just 20 years ago. a active war zone in the Ukraine right now. Troops Stationed in Afghanistan. Caused the current Immigration Crisis when they Bombed Libya to smithereens. This shit golden, keep it up.
Well then, can't the Federal Government do it? All that money spent on military budget is just a waste to enrich corporations.
GonZo_626
Well Shit!
Yes the last 70 years is a long time compared to the 2000+ that Europe has been screwing things up...…
So if America suddenly did exactly what you wanted and pulled back all their troops to American soil, do you honestly believe that everything would be magically ok in all those places? Or let me guess you think those places would somehow be a utopia of no war if the US never went there at all?
This is why people are losing faith in the UN and they lost faith in the league of nations before it, inactivity with no willingness to get involved. All it takes for bad men to win is for good men to do nothing.
Hahhahaaha this is just pure comedy isn't it? While some corporations are getting quite rich from a military industrial complex, that is how capitalism works, they make money from building stuff. Do you propose just disbanding the military and hoping for the best?
One more thing on the topic of all countries having blood on there hands and talking to the POW points above. Yes German troops much preferred surrendering to the US, they ran and fought to the death and would not surrender to Canadians do you know why? Our nice country that has a history of peacekeeping, we say sorry for no reason, and we executed German troops instead of letting them surrender. And that is just during war, fuck we have done things to the Natives here, there is the whole gaydar thing the Gov did, and probably more I don't know about or cant remember off the top of my head. Every country has innocent blood on there hands, get over it Europe does too and those same American bombs being dropped on civilians are being dropped by Germans, Aussies, Canadians, Uk, French, NZ, and a shit ton of other countries all involved in the same conflicts. European peacefulness my ass, more like European smugness and ignorance.
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DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Again, I brought that up earlier. There is a reason for our defense budget. Being 20 years ahead of your rivals on stealth technology pays dividends, but costs money. Same with NATO. We bring the lions share of funding to NATO and in return, Europe allows us to be world police, which gives us a whole lot of power. Same with overseas bases, we have more clout in the area for the small price of paying for a lease on the land. Oversea bases gives us operational reach whereas we wouldn't have that reach without said bases.
A lot of hippies don't understand that our way of life would be very different, and probably worse, if we were to massively scale back our military. A lot of countries have grudges and rightfully so against us, and wouldn't hesitate to hit us while we are down. Russia and China are constantly making moves already. Iran has committed itself in Syria and other places in a bid to be a regional power player. The more influence we lose, the shittier the life of the average American as again, we ARE the empire. Life in the empire wouldn't be so great if the empire was slowly being broken up, being weakened from within, etc, etc.
If I lived in the USA and couldn't afford an insurance I think I wouldn't give a shit about oversea Influence. Nuclear weapons are enough of a deterrent to avoid a war among big powers so 619 Billions dollars on military budget is way too much. Half that would still guarantee supremacy
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I don't see a correlation there at all. Quite the opposite. The more we send men & materiel overseas, the more repressive regional partners we ally with (Saudis), the more we try to turn backwater dictatorships into functioning democracies in weeks time the worse things are for the average American in both opportunity cost and blowback. What's this empire you speak of? Puerto Rico and Guam? Cost us more than they're worth.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
As I have also brought up, many states provide insurance to those who cannot afford it on their own, mostly through Medicaid like AHCCCS in AZ. each state has their own setup but yea, insurance is there, people need to apply. Now the quality of said insurance is a completely different monster and much more difficult to fix.
Cimmerian
Being a global power with global reach is what allows us to command the right to be the worlds reserve currency. Other things include shit happening in Ukraine and Syria would never happen to us. We never have to play second fiddle to the likes of Russia and China. We have more clout in making deals, especially in trade. Being top dog has a lot of unseen bonuses to be honest.
Cimmerian
Being a global power with global reach is what allows us to command the right to be the worlds reserve currency. Other things include shit happening in Ukraine and Syria would never happen to us. We never have to play second fiddle to the likes of Russia and China. We have more clout in making deals, especially in trade. Being top dog has a lot of unseen bonuses to be honest.
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