PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Meh.
Europe, Dagaboah, its all the same.
Europe, Dagaboah, its all the same.
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- Thread starter Ratty Sr.
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So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
The Vault Dweller
always looking for water.
Ok I got Western and Northern Europe completely understood in terms of culture and geography. I know less about Southern Europe and less about Eastern, but...not to sound offensive...
WTF is Belarus!?! I dont remember that there.
Hm,
The Vault Dweller
WTF is Belarus!?! I dont remember that there.
Hm,
The Vault Dweller
You realize that you're on the internet right? It would take less time for me to type up this response then it would for you to look it up here?
That said, the Republic of Belorus is, as Jebus would say, just a bunch of Russians with an identity crisis.
That said, the Republic of Belorus is, as Jebus would say, just a bunch of Russians with an identity crisis.
PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I thought thats what what half of eastern european countries were.............
No it isn't. That's the entire point of it all, the concept of Eastern Europe is a political one, as is the geographical definition of Europe (which has also changed over the years, shifted east and west several times). Italy, for insytance, is always thought to be Western Europe, but it is for a large part geographically in Eastern Europe. Norway, Finland and Sweden have the same thing. Never refer to Eastern Europe and expect it to mean the same thing to everyone, and specifically never use it and expect that it isn't a political concept: it is.
No: the Warshaw-pact countries is a political concept. The 'oostblok' is a political concept. 'Eastern Europe' MIGHT for some seem like a political concept, but then that's just people infected with that damn political-correctness virus. God Sander, no matter how hard Hungary will try, it's never be Western Europe simply because it lies on the East of Europe! No matter how hard San Francisco will trie, it'll never be an East Coast city simply because it lies on the damn West Coast
An Italy is neither Western nor Eastern Europe: it's central Europe.
Now Sander, I don't care wether you or your present-day shitty politics want to call Turkey or so Western Europe in a few years, but I'll just keep on laughing in your damn face. Everything East of Italy has been called 'Eastern Europe' since before Emperor Charles V was born, even since before damn Clovis was born, and it's going to be KEPT to be called that way - simply because of geographical reality instead of recent political developments.
An Italy is neither Western nor Eastern Europe: it's central Europe.
Now Sander, I don't care wether you or your present-day shitty politics want to call Turkey or so Western Europe in a few years, but I'll just keep on laughing in your damn face. Everything East of Italy has been called 'Eastern Europe' since before Emperor Charles V was born, even since before damn Clovis was born, and it's going to be KEPT to be called that way - simply because of geographical reality instead of recent political developments.
And here I thought the European Union was supposed to transcend borders and such concerns....
Damned people, this is geographical. Is everybody truly uncapable of understanding that?
This does not carry any sort of political connotation, since geography is as neutral as can be. The USA has an East and a West coast, no? There's East and West Afrika, no? There's East and West Flanders, no?
For crying out loud, has political correctness outlawed the use of bloody compasspoints now?
This does not carry any sort of political connotation, since geography is as neutral as can be. The USA has an East and a West coast, no? There's East and West Afrika, no? There's East and West Flanders, no?
For crying out loud, has political correctness outlawed the use of bloody compasspoints now?
You're completely missing my point. I hate the fact that it is a political concept, and I'd like it to be just a geographical one. But the point is that it isn't. I have yet to hear someone refer to "Eastern Europe" without actually meaning "those poor, shitty ex-Soviet countries". I'm not saying you shouldn't use it, not at all, I'm saying that you should realise it does have political connotations. The fact that you use it in a geographical context is good, but the fact that you fail to recognise it's polticial connotations is completely silly and frankly, it shows your lack of knowledge of history. Eastern and Western Europe as a concept haven't existed for that long, but the principle of referring to the East as inferior dates back to the Orthodox and Catholic split. It's a simple fact, and denying it isn't going to make it dissappear: Eastern and Western Europe have polticial connotations.
EDIT: And I don't want to ever refer to Greece or Turkey as a Western European nation (many do), quite simply because they aren't. I barely ever use those classifications anyway, and I'd certainly not use them incorrectly. Wouldn't the fact that I'm trying to establish that they're political concepts and that that is a bad thing at least show that I don't use them in a political sense?
Ow, fuck you, man. You should damned well know by now I'm not someone who cares much about political correctness, and frankly, I think you care more about it than I do, considering the fact that you're happy with such things as Vlaams Blok being outlawed. The fact that I come up with effective arguments as to why it is still a political and not (just) a geographical concept has jack shit to do with political correctness.
You're wrong either way, Jebus. 
If you want to take it that way (which, by the way, is sort of my preferred approach as well):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_centre_of_Europe
(I'm not quoting Wikipedia as gospel; just to support what I learned in high school.)
However, since a very big chunk of the east is taken up by Russia, the distinction between west/east is shifted towards the west. The simplest division I know (apart from the obsolete iron curtain division, of course) has Germany, Austria, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, and Hungary (plus sometimes Liechtenstein and Switzerland, and Slovenia seems to want to join in as well) as Central Europe; Eastern and Western Europe are to the east and the west of that, respectively. Then there's stuff like Northern, Southern, and South-Eastern Europe, which I'm too lazy to get into now.
Jebus said:
If you want to take it that way (which, by the way, is sort of my preferred approach as well):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_centre_of_Europe
(I'm not quoting Wikipedia as gospel; just to support what I learned in high school.)
However, since a very big chunk of the east is taken up by Russia, the distinction between west/east is shifted towards the west. The simplest division I know (apart from the obsolete iron curtain division, of course) has Germany, Austria, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, and Hungary (plus sometimes Liechtenstein and Switzerland, and Slovenia seems to want to join in as well) as Central Europe; Eastern and Western Europe are to the east and the west of that, respectively. Then there's stuff like Northern, Southern, and South-Eastern Europe, which I'm too lazy to get into now.
I can't believe I, once again, ended up in an incredibly useless semantics discussion again.
*sigh*
Sander - short 'n sweet - I know 'Eastern Europe' is often used with an ex-sovjet political connotation. This, however, is not what I meant.
That should've been clear by know.
Also, this made me laugh:
Sander, you little fucktard, I would suggest you'd take a quick peak at my profile, and see what I do all day.
I know more of history than you seem to think, and I'm actually quite certain I know more of histroy than you do.
It's pretty embarassing to go around pimping your "Europe: A History"knowledge around to someone who made history his way of life, you know.
*sigh*
Sander - short 'n sweet - I know 'Eastern Europe' is often used with an ex-sovjet political connotation. This, however, is not what I meant.
That should've been clear by know.
Also, this made me laugh:
Sander said:
Sander, you little fucktard, I would suggest you'd take a quick peak at my profile, and see what I do all day.
I know more of history than you seem to think, and I'm actually quite certain I know more of histroy than you do.
It's pretty embarassing to go around pimping your "Europe: A History"knowledge around to someone who made history his way of life, you know.
I knew that, Jebus. I knew that for a long time (by the way, what happened with your "flunking" deal? (What kind of an idiot came up with that whole idea for universities anyway? Thanks to you Belgians my faculty is now trying to go for that game)). But that doesn't mean jack shit. I study Computer Science, so I probably know quite a bit about computers, but that doesn't mean that I dismiss everyone who doesn't study Computer Science, nor does it mean that I presume to know a lot about computers. The same goes for knowledge of history: you need to show it. Yay, you're studying it. This could mean you know quite a bit about history, but it could also mean you know not so much about it, or perhaps you misinterpret things. The entire point of scientific and academic discourse is to clear up disagreements between people who know (or pretend to know)a lot about their respective fields of study (or to create more disagreements). If you disagree with my analysis, you can come up with arguments as to why I'm wrong.
Also note that I haven't referred to that book once in this thread, so that last sentence was not only unnecessary but a non-sequitur as well.
As well as that, I still can't see how you can bash it if you haven't read it. *shrugs*
Lastly I never claimed that you weren't referring to geographical boundaries, you clearly were, but I was attacking the fact that you skipped by the political connotations that were still there, as were you skipping by the fact that boundaries of both Europe and the dividing line between Eastern/Western has shifted throughout the ages, again a rather important part when you start to talk about Eastern/Western Europe.
DJ Slamák said:
I wasn't serious, although it doesn't help the name of their country means "West Russia". They are quite clearly not Russian, although alot of them speak Russian and are of Russian decent. And as for Lukashenko, sure hes a tyranical ruler, but how can you hate anyone who calls the US Congress a bunch of "Stupid Dumbasses"?
I'm more concerned about the Ukraine right now. Those elections are messy. My Uncle in Kiev said Yushchenkos followers have already attacked National troops in the city several times today.
Awww...Commissar Lauren said:
Yep. It's interesting how it seems that the whole western half voted Juščenko and the whole eastern half voted the evil pro-Russian evil seed of evil (I forgot his evil name). Civil war anyone?
At least with Belarus, you knew the election was rigged. The Ukraine, though, nothing is for certain there.
Sander - you should keep your mouth shut about things you don't know about.
You have no idea why I flunked last year. If you really want to know - I never even took my exams.
But was that because I didn't feel I was up for them? No. It was because of personal matters, whom I will not disclose here. You shouldn't be too quick to judge, troll boy.
Also - you don't have to bloody complain about the Belgian college system. I had 87% in my last year of high school, so that would've gotten me into a college anywhere. And, I'm not on a scholarship - simply because my parents make to much damn money.
So that's one less thing you get to troll about.
Lastly - do you really believe I didn't know about that thing called the Sovjet Union? Do you really think me that ignorant? Do you really believe I don't know jack shit about Eastern European history? I actually have four hours of Eastern European history each damn week, boy, and that's more than you'll ever get from any bloody book.
Look, I understand what you mean - and you know I understand. You, also, bloody well knew what I was talking about, yet you had to come in here and - once again - irritate the hell out of me with an infinitely fucktardish semantic discussion.
For the love of God Sander, I don't know what you're trying to proove or accomplish, but this is becoming ludicrous.
PS I've read "History of Europe". It's a good book, although it perhaps is flawed and unnuanced in some occasions - as historical literature covering such vast areas of space and time always are. Don't get me wrong, it's not bad - but it would never pass a true academical, scientifical test.
You have no idea why I flunked last year. If you really want to know - I never even took my exams.
But was that because I didn't feel I was up for them? No. It was because of personal matters, whom I will not disclose here. You shouldn't be too quick to judge, troll boy.
Also - you don't have to bloody complain about the Belgian college system. I had 87% in my last year of high school, so that would've gotten me into a college anywhere. And, I'm not on a scholarship - simply because my parents make to much damn money.
So that's one less thing you get to troll about.
Lastly - do you really believe I didn't know about that thing called the Sovjet Union? Do you really think me that ignorant? Do you really believe I don't know jack shit about Eastern European history? I actually have four hours of Eastern European history each damn week, boy, and that's more than you'll ever get from any bloody book.
Look, I understand what you mean - and you know I understand. You, also, bloody well knew what I was talking about, yet you had to come in here and - once again - irritate the hell out of me with an infinitely fucktardish semantic discussion.
For the love of God Sander, I don't know what you're trying to proove or accomplish, but this is becoming ludicrous.
PS I've read "History of Europe". It's a good book, although it perhaps is flawed and unnuanced in some occasions - as historical literature covering such vast areas of space and time always are. Don't get me wrong, it's not bad - but it would never pass a true academical, scientifical test.
Far be it from I, with my lowly stature and complete lack of a gentleman's education, to dare correct you Jebus, but it looks like fate hath forced my hand.
You had just as much to do with this semantic argument as Sander, in fact, I believe it was you that started correcting other people on the point of what is "Eastern Europe." Thence came this lively debate.
You had just as much to do with this semantic argument as Sander, in fact, I believe it was you that started correcting other people on the point of what is "Eastern Europe." Thence came this lively debate.
I hàd already clearly pointed out I was talking about the geographical West and East before Sander bugged in, though.
And again you misinterpret: the question about flunking was merely out of interest and had nothing to do with insults. I apologize if it did seem that way to you, though, but I merely wanted to know what happened because I hadn't heard anything after your posts about that paper and such.
Troll about? Bloody hell, Jebus, it was an aside remark about something bugging me: the fact that my faculty wishes to remove the ability to study at your own pace instead of being forced to do everything at the pace prescribed by others.
No, I didn't, Jebus. And I never said such a thing either, what I did remark however was that if you fail to recognise that Eastern Europe has a polticial connotation, then your knowledge of history is flawed. That's all, and because you completely failed to acknowledge it up to that point, mhy remark was justified.
Hah. Yes, I purposefully come in here with the sole reason to irritate you.
Of course not! All I did was remark that there are no set and universally agreed upon boundaries, and that the concepts have political connotations. The fact that you then continue on that road by claiming, somehow, that they are purely geographical concepts (which goes straight against what I was saying) also shows that you are just as much involved in "creating" this debate as I am.
You know, Jebus, that your getting involved in debates (debates require two or more people, remember) and then subsequently blaming me for doing that is not only annoying but also completely stupid. You dismiss what may very well be a valid argument with the word "semantics", and then expect everyone to agree with you, and besides that, you blame me for single-handedly creating a "useless" debate. That is, quite simply, a bullshit attitude.
PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Oh, teh Drama, teh drama. ::faints::
Seriously, eastern europpe can refrence BOTH the geographic eastern Europe as well as the former soviet countrys.
It depends on one thing. (primarily)
Context.
Seriously, eastern europpe can refrence BOTH the geographic eastern Europe as well as the former soviet countrys.
It depends on one thing. (primarily)
Context.