Danes vs Muslims?

[Duckman]

No, but I do remember hearing about these three crusades...

Getting into what the church was like during the crusades, it was more of a Catholic church, rather than a 'Christian' one.

I may piss off a few people by saying this but Catholicism isn't Christian because they believe that Mary is higher than Jesus Christ because she gave birth to Him. Where the true definition of a "Christian" is one who believes in Jesus Christ as saviour, not another person, or idol (the 2nd Commandment).

If you look back at the medieval church as well, they spoke in Latin (a then "holy" language that only the priests spoke). And in modern day mass they also speak in Latin...

But in relation to Christian extremists, say, shooting up a school or robbing a bank, I really don't think that they are true Christians and are only classed as one due to the fact they live in a "Christian" country, where the dominant religion is christianity, ie America, Australia....

 

[Brother None]

Getting into what the church was like during the crusades, it was more of a Catholic church, rather than a 'Christian' one.

I may piss off a few people by saying this but Catholicism isn't Christian because they believe that Mary is higher than Jesus Christ because she gave birth to Him. Where the true definition of a "Christian" is one who believes in Jesus Christ as saviour, not another person, or idol (the 2nd Commandment).

If you look back at the medieval church as well, they spoke in Latin (a then "holy" language that only the priests spoke). And in modern day mass they also speak in Latin...

But in relation to Christian extremists, say, shooting up a school or robbing a bank, I really don't think that they are true Christians and are only classed as one due to the fact they live in a "Christian" country, where the dominant religion is christianity, ie America, Australia....

Ok.

And ALL of the above doesn't apply to muslim extremists because...?

Exactly, it doesn't. If you're going to release such bendy-twisty "Catholicism isn't Christianity" logic on this case, then EXACTLY the same thing applies to muslim extremists, who're generally islamists, and not muslims.

 

[Duckman]

the same thing applies to muslim extremists, who're generally islamists, and not muslims.

Erm, as far as I know, Muslim's are the people who study Islam...Isn't Islam the religion here that they generally adhere their lives too?

 

[Mikey]

Erm, as far as I know, Christians (not lack of apostrophe) are the people who study Christianity... Isn't Christianity the religion here that they generally adhere their lives to? (not single "o")

they believe that Mary is higher than Jesus Christ because she gave birth to Him.

Bollocks. I'm a protestant and even I recognise that they don't worship the BVM.

 

[Duckman]

Bollocks. I'm a protestant and even I recognise that they don't worship the BVM

Well then how can you explain that many catholic churches throughout the world have statues of Mary often outside the church and inside, where people may pray to her or what ever they do...

And btw, I am protestant too, and have some religious study background, and as far as I know they see Mary as a figure of prayer, other than Jesus and God.

 

[Brother None]

Erm, as far as I know, Muslim's are the people who study Islam...Isn't Islam the religion here that they generally adhere their lives too?

Defining muslims as "people who study islam" is like defining Christians as "people who read the bible"

Islamistm is a philosophy that was born at the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century. It is a violent philosophy often called "fundamental islam" even though its fundaments go right against many of Muhammed's preachings.

Calling a fringe group of the Islam muslims while denying Catholics are Christians is...well...insane.

Well then how can you explain that many catholic churches throughout the world have statues of Mary often outside the church and inside, where people may pray to her or what ever they do...

And btw, I am protestant too, and have some religious study background, and as far as I know they see Mary as a figure of prayer, other than Jesus and God.

They may pray to her because Mary and the Saints are *messengers*. You pray to them so that they may give your message to the Holy Godhead, you don't pray to them for divine intervention.

Even so, you claimed they see Mary as *higher* than Jesus. I want you to point out a *single* Catholic source that makes such a claim.

 

[Duckman]

Well ok, ok...

This has gone off topic a bit, but what the Bible teaches is that there is no other 'higher being' that should be prayed to other than Jesus Christ/God...The New Testament states that the saints and the like shouldn't be prayed to like God should be...

But I'm just rambling about some ideals that people don't stand for and the difference between the catholic and christian church is *ehem* large...And thats the last I'm saying on the matter.....

 

[Montez]

Not having been raised either catholic or protestant my opinion might be worth something or might be completely meaningless, I don't know, but as far as I can tell there's really no difference between catholics and protestants besides the style in which they practice christianity, for lack of a better word, and the fact that catholics seem to look to the pope more than any protestant looks to their bishops.

I do think the whole gang/rival mentality that most protestants and catholics view each other with is pretty good for a laugh though. "Red team rules, Blue team drools!", "Blue team rocks, Red team sucks!"

 

[Brother None]

Well ok, ok...

This has gone off topic a bit, but what the Bible teaches is that there is no other 'higher being' that should be prayed to other than Jesus Christ/God...The New Testament states that the saints and the like shouldn't be prayed to like God should be...

But I'm just rambling about some ideals that people don't stand for and the difference between the catholic and christian church is *ehem* large...And thats the last I'm saying on the matter.....

"Christian church"? Seriously, man, if you're going to make statements like those, do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

Plus, hint; catholics *don't* pray to saints as they do to God.

Montez; most protestant denominations don't have bishops.

 

[Montez]

Montez; most protestant denominations don't have bishops.

Didn't know that. How do the ones that don't organize, do they have councils or things like that?

 

[Roshambo]

But doesn't Islam teach peace and harmony type of things, and it's just the extremist sects that take it Islam into it's extreme teachings, then blow themselves up??

Nope, sorry, the only one preaching love, peace, and harmony to come from the Mid-East was Jesus Christ, as the Prophet was too busy raiding unguarded caravans to be a proper mouthpiece of God.

I'm not saying I know what they teach in Islam, but the majority of what they do preach and teach is peaceful...

No, it isn't. Not even back to the Prophet's days. Not in the face of any other religion, especially in the Prophet's days where if you were Arab and didn't convert, you were sentenced to death. How the hell is that peaceful? They might preach that they are being peaceful, but that's kind of like King George Jr. I saying that the US is bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq - the preached lie doesn't change reality.

It doesn't help that the general attitude toward women in Islam, from even the Prophet's times and the Prophet himself, is the mentality based upon the excuses of a rapist; that the woman drives the man to unclean thoughts, despite the purpose of Allah making her like that to be man's companion (which the religion can't ever stay constant, leading to arguments around divine construction, because then what about circumcision?). Oh, and the religion was founded by a brigand, a murderer, and a child rapist. I know I have gone about this subject at length, but it's the dirty turban that Islam doesn't want aired, because it proves that all the excuses about Islam being loving and peaceful and all that, as a lie that extends back past the time Islam slew millions of Hindu, to the Prohpet himself.

Oops.

 

[Brother None]

Historically incorrect, Santa. Wildly so.

At the time when the islam was on the rise, Christianity was not a single step ahead of it. We had violent kings ruling in the name of Christianity in that time, and women were little better off.

Later, though, under the Ottoman Empire pre-Young Turk, all religions were accepted within the borders on a level unseen in any other country. Remember, the muslims for a long time allowed the Christians to go to Israel on pilgrimages, do you think any Christian power then would've done the same? Keep a bit of a historical perspective on it.

Now we caught up again and they look like dirty little mudslingers. Does that justify condemning them and their whole religion? Not really, no.

Didn't know that. How do the ones that don't organize, do they have councils or things like that?

It varies a lot. Some have councils, like the Presbyterians and their "elders", some do have bishops, like the anglicans.

I have no idea what kind of wide range of leadership the various protestant denominations have. It's one of the reasons the concept "protestant church" is a bit stupid.

 

[Duckman]

"Christian church"? Seriously, man, if you're going to make statements like those, do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

I am not denying the fact that they pray to a Christ figure. But when I refer to "Christian" the group I am talking about is the Protestant/Anglican people... Catholicism is a different group of rules which is much strickter if you go by the rules... But what it all comes down to is the denomination of which you headline yourself.

The major differences between the Catholic religion and Christian Religion is as follows:

1. Catholicism makes up several things that don't occur/say to do in the bilbe. For example, the wine is Jesus blood and the bread is His body. No reference in the Bible

2. And the hail Mary thing with the beads and the like. There is no reference in the Bible which refers to praying to Mary or the like.

3. They believe that purgatory is a place where your sins can be redeemed so that you have a chance to be saved and go to heaven. No biblical reference.

4. Confession to a priest in a box. No reference to the Bible

There are so many more that disproves the Catholic church as a Christian establishment, its ridiculous...

I'm not here to 'bash' any religion in any way, but catholics are not the defined Christians as there adherence to a separate set of rules is not taught by the Bible...

 

[Wooz]

I'm not here to 'bash' any religion in any way, but catholics are not the defined Christians as there adherence to a separate set of rules is not taught by the Bible...

Tchyeah.

As if there was, nowadays, any Church that even comes close to Yeshua Ha-Nocri's teachings.

Lessee. I was brought up as a Catholic, let me clear things up a bit.

The major differences between the Catholic religion and Christian Religion is as follows:

Actually, no. The major differences are the number of sacrements, and what the church determines what's needed in order to obtain Salvation. Tsk.

1. Catholicism makes up several things that don't occur/say to do in the bilbe. For example, the wine is Jesus blood and the bread is His body. No reference in the Bible

IIRC, it is. Hell, it's the most important part of the last meal with his apostles.

2. And the hail Mary thing with the beads and the like. There is no reference in the Bible which refers to praying to Mary or the like.

See Kharn's post

3. They believe that purgatory is a place where your sins can be redeemed so that you have a chance to be saved and go to heaven. No biblical reference.

True, to some extent. According to Catholicism, not all sins are forgiveable in the purgatory, ie. murder, rape, etc.

4. Confession to a priest in a box. No reference to the Bible

Nigga please.

Does the bible say anything that authorizes divorce? No, didn't think so. Does it say anything about, oh, having eight consecutive wives? Does it say anything about the fact that priests should wear ceremonial clothing? Does it say anything about Christmas?

No.

You want to know why Christmas is celebrated the 25th of December? Originally, back in the day (*insert 80's hip hop tune*) of the Roman empire, a rival religion to Christianity was a particular form of monotheistic sun-worship, vowed to the Unconquered Sun (Sol Invictus), which was celebrated the 25th of December, roughly at the time when days become longer and nights shorter in the Northern Hempishere. Christianity eventually assimilated that religion, integrated into itself. The old sungod was acclaimed to be a symbol of Jesus, as he's also unconquered by death (invincible) by his resurrection. The process is called "Syncretism". A lot of modern-day Western Christian practices inherited many traditions of the older days.

Also, don't forget that religion, including Christianity, is a powerful tool of power. A lot of what nowadays is considered religious dogma are adjustments or modifications made to "suit the public" better, to convert and influence people more easily, or just plain political moves inside the Churches. Furthermore, the syncretic thought that I mentioned before is widely used in Latin America by many Christian organizations, which incorporate and re-tune animistic practices.

To resume, I don't think the Catholic church is further away from the Bible's teachings than the other Churches. They're all a long way; especially the ones that schismed to spiritually legitimize a particular king's promiscuity.

 

[Roshambo]

Historically incorrect, Santa. Wildly so.

Not in perspective of how it's complete bullshit in how the religion is "peaceful" or any such dreck such as that. I was not also keeping a running parallel historic tally of whom was nicer, it was about Islam's teaching being peaceful and harmonious, which is utter bullshit.

At the time when the islam was on the rise, Christianity was not a single step ahead of it. We had violent kings ruling in the name of Christianity in that time, and women were little better off.

So? The Prophet was a butcherer for terrorizing unguarded Meccan people. What did Jesus Christ do? Yes, I am going by the teachings, and by what each "Prophet" conveyed and how they acted. So far, Jesus is a saint, and the Prophet is a murdering pedophile. The bible teaches peace, while the Qu'uran leaves wide gaping holes that when interpreted in context with the Prophet's own actions, gives little wonder as to how the Taliban and others could re-write or even interpret legal marriage age at 9 years old, even if the child is still playing with her dolls and is otherwise sexually immature when you decide to fuck her. Or, if they went by the Prophet's own actions, legal marriage would be legal at 6 years old, and you could fuck the child whenever you want unless the child's father asks you to wait three years.

HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Hardly the example I would say of a "peaceful religion". If you want peaceful, again look to Jesus, Kill Count: 0. How much blood of the innocent soaks the Prophet's hands?

Again, peaceful Islam = camel shit.

Later, though, under the Ottoman Empire pre-Young Turk, all religions were accepted within the borders on a level unseen in any other country. Remember, the muslims for a long time allowed the Christians to go to Israel on pilgrimages, do you think any Christian power then would've done the same? Keep a bit of a historical perspective on it.

Christians and Jews were allowed to remain in their faiths, because the Prophet conveyed that Allah saw their faith as wrong but for not executable reasons, because they worshipped God but didn't hear His whole message. If you were a pagan Arab, you had to convert or be executed. Selectively peaceful != peaceful. That was in the time of the Prophet, and set the tone for how they treated other polydeistic religions like Hinduism, which I mentioned that the Muslims had no problem going to war with them.

Now look at TODAY, and see how Christianity has progresed from what it was, and Islam has gone from "Child-Rapin' Jesus" to "What The Fuck?"

Now we caught up again and they look like dirty little mudslingers. Does that justify condemning them and their whole religion? Not really, no.

I can go by the teachings, and frankly I doubt that the Prophet's words were wholly that of Allah, but instead that of a very warped child rapist that put the blame of being a rapist upon women. Which is reflected in many modern Islamic countries, where the woman is executed for being raped, because she obviously drove the man to sin. Word and practice of the Prophet, and if the holy man is such a bastard, who the hell is going to faithfully follow his hypocritical teachings to be a holy man in the eyes of Allah?

I have no idea what kind of wide range of leadership the various protestant denominations have. It's one of the reasons the concept "protestant church" is a bit stupid.

It's quite simple. They are "Catholicism Lite", with 100% Less Political Bullshit, 100% Less Church Politics Getting in Way of The Word of God, and 90% Less Child Molestations!

 

[Duckman]

Alritey then,

Does the bible say anything that authorizes divorce?

Yes. It condemns the act of divorce, unless the spouse is dead. Then you can marry again. Under no circumstance when both of the couple is alive is one to divorce. Those people who do divorce and call themselves diligent christians are lying.

Does it say anything about, oh, having eight consecutive wives?

Yes, I think Solomon had hundreds of wives, and some concubines to boot. But thats the Old Testament, which all but the 10 commandments is irrelevant to modern day tribulations.

Does it say anything about the fact that priests should wear ceremonial clothing?

No, so why then do Catholic priests? From the churches that I know of and been to, none of the pastors or leaders wear any clothing to distinguish themselves from anyone else.

Does it say anything about Christmas?

Nope, just a Pagan celebration, like Easter with bunny rabbits and the easter egg bullshit. Each of these, though, placed conveniently near to christian celebrations of Jesus' birth and death.

A lot of what nowadays is considered religious dogma are adjustments or modifications made to "suit the public" better, to convert and influence people more easily

Not where I'm from. All the true christian churches (non-catholic) that adhere to the bible and it's laws written by God, do no change anything to suit the public. It is there own choice whether or not the want to be saved or spend an eternity in hell. Any other group, or sect, which changes the rules for their own liking, is not a true christian outpost.

They're all a long way; especially the ones that schismed to spiritually legitimize a particular king's promiscuity.

Ok, that was the Church of England. But catholicism was bought upon by some Roman sect that disagreed with what Paul had to say about the truth of the scriptures. Thus the 'Roman Catholic' church name. I don't know the history of King Henry's change to the church's rules and regulations, but it was to suit his 'better intentions'. Martin Luther King rebelled against the catholic church and pointed out the mistakes it had and is making during the middle ages, and created his group of the Lutherans. This group now, as far as I know, has become a sect of christian religion.

And one last thing, how can the catholic church include an extra book in the Bible? Because it was a useless book created by a man who used syncretism to combine his knowledge of the bible and added to it pagan misunderstandings to it, and corrupted what we know. By the way that book is the book of Enoch.

 

[Dapper Dan Man]

Martin Luther King rebelled against the catholic church and pointed out the mistakes it had and is making during the middle ages, and created his group of the Lutherans. This group now, as far as I know, has become a sect of christian religion.

AhHAhahahaha!!!!


Oh wait, you were serious?

 

[John Uskglass]

We had violent kings ruling in the name of Christianity in that time,

Political and economic necessity, rarely theologically backed. The Christian notion of "Holy War" (as opposed to justified war) first sprang up during the war with the Sassanids right before the Islamic invasion (Mohamed actually talks about it in the Koran, fascinating war, maybe the first war of it's size). I've actually read that the Islamic notion of Jihad could have been influenced by the Byzantine-Sassanid conflict, where eventually both began rattling on about it benig a "Holy War", the first real one in both Zoroastrian and Christian history.

To be fair, the Koran is not all about child raping and killing people. Comparing the atmosphere of Arabia at the time Mohamed was almost something of a Liberal, and he was not that warlike in the early (chronologically) parts of the Koran. Then again, most of that is scripture pinched from the New Testament.

 

[Wooz]

Say, duckie, you're becoming quite the amusement.

Nope, just a Pagan celebration, like Easter with bunny rabbits and the easter egg bullshit.

FYI, the Easter celebrations were in place BEFORE Christ was even born.

placed conveniently near to christian celebrations of Jesus' birth and death

Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

All the true christian churches (non-catholic)

Comedy gold.

Martin Luther King rebelled against the catholic church and pointed out the mistakes it had and is making during the middle ages, and created his group of the Lutherans

Comedy gold #2.

Ok, that was the Church of England. But catholicism was bought upon by some Roman sect that disagreed with what Paul had to say about the truth of the scriptures.

Comedy gold #3 , in combination with #2, proves you're confused, to say the least, regarding the origins of the religion you defend so ferociously.

And one last thing, how can the catholic church include an extra book in the Bible? Because it was a useless book created by a man who used syncretism to combine his knowledge of the bible and added to it pagan misunderstandings to it, and corrupted what we know. By the way that book is the book of Enoch.

Eheheh.

To be honest, I don't know what version of the Bible you're reading. The Roman Church does include books in their Bible that Protestants don't, but Enoch is not one of them. So this is not an issue that divides Roman Catholics and Protestants.

Through the years some translations of the Bible have included the Book of Enoch and other Jewish works; other translations have not. The Douay version of the Bible was one of those translations that included parts of the Apocrypha and also in this case, the Book of Enoch.

Also, FYI, the Catholic Church was around before the Protestant Church. The books mentioned are not "extra", or added-in. A few books that were originally in the Bible at the time of the Reform were discarded by the Protestants, along with other things.

Capisce?

 

[Duckman]

Say, duckie, you're becoming quite the amusement.

Well thankyou Wooz...

Well there is no point continuing the arguement as I know that there is a significant difference between catholicism and christianity, but still is too dificult and touchy to debate about as it may piss off some people...

So there you have it... :sorry: that I continued to debate a point that really cannot be solved...