Define doping

[Ilosar]

its probably like always a bit more complicated like that. You had usually always the issue that doping would be very harmful and pretty dangerous.

But today you have many ways which fall in some kind of "gray" area. It can go so far where extremely conservative people consider it already doping if you do your training in areas with less oxygen to breathe because your body would somewhat get used to it.

I am not a friend of doping obviously it is against everything that sport stands for.

But I have read once about people that have genetical mutations in their blood cells or muscles (no clue really i cant remember anymore), which gave them a small advantage in endurance, simply because the way how their body and blood reacted to oxygen was different o "usual" people. It was something about the sport Biathlon.

Yeah, but that's not controllable. Obviouly all humans are different, and reaching the highest level of a discipline requires a gift. You don't become a world-class chess player with average intelligence, same as you don't become a repeatedly gold medal athlete without a distinct advantage. Hussein Bolt is a good example.

Special training is not doping as I see it. It gives you an advantage. but no more than, say, someone who studies under ideal conditions vs the guy who does it the day before full of stress. At some point complete equality is impossible in both skill and method. Doping is when you willfully ingest something that makes you perform beyond what you could possibly do, I don't think even the most special of training does that.

But I am curious, how fast could a human be made to run, with limitless and legal performance enhancement?

Probably not that much faster, at least not safely. There's a point where your heart and muscles can't take much more, no matter how many drugs you pump into a person. I imagine it's why even a separate, dope-legal league is unfeasible. There starts to be a lot of safety concerns once you give them free reign to fill people with chemicals. I read once that it's a reason (along with wounds, of course) why football players don't last long after their careers are done; many take so much drugs their body is ruined once they stop.

 

[Hassknecht]

The brain restricts the muscles most of the time because our tendons are just not up to it.
If you could kinda override that limitation for a short time (you know, short enough to minimize the damage to your muscles, bones and tendons) you could do ridiculous stuff.
I suspect that those Shaolin monks actually do that, they use meditation and concentration to overcome the limits the brain sets to their muscles.
Well, that's what I think, anyway. Maybe it's some kind of Chi voodoo or whatever, but if a frail housewive can lift a car in an emergency situation or some dude can push away a boulder with smashed hands if it threatens to push him over a cliff I think there's simply a lot of potential in our bodies that we simply can't access.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Probably not that much faster, at least not safely. There's a point where your heart and muscles can't take much more, no matter how many drugs you pump into a person. I imagine it's why even a separate, dope-legal league is unfeasible. There starts to be a lot of safety concerns once you give them free reign to fill people with chemicals. I read once that it's a reason (along with wounds, of course) why football players don't last long after their careers are done; many take so much drugs their body is ruined once they stop.

as far as I remember there are mechanical/physical limitations of what is possible. This is pretty interesting when you compare the ratio between for example humans and much smaller creatures like ants or fleas. If you would for example translate that to a human it would be like jumping some 100 or 150 meters and actually lifting elephants in your hands. Its pretty interesting to read why ants can actually lift objects 30 or even 40 times of their size and why humans cant do that. Even with the best genetic engineering. But I am not a biologicst. Just some google expert. It seems there is a conection between the muscles, the diameter etc.

The reason that ants can lift so much is due to a concept of physics known as scaling. In fact the muscles of ants are no stronger than human muscles, but it is their small size that provides their advantage. Ants can lift so much because of the ratio between their body size and body mass; their small size means they do not have a large body mass and the proportion of their mass that is muscle is very high.
As a result they are able to lift weights that are many times larger than their own body weight. In comparison elephants have massive size and the proportion of their mass that is muscle is quite low; although they are able to lift incredible weights they are unable to lift or carry their own body weight. Humans have utilised the laws of physics to our advantage and we use levers and hydraulics to enable us to lift as capably as ants.

Anyway, as far as I remember a human can lift maybe weight twize of his own weight with training, more or less. - but I have not checked if that is true.

But I somehow have my doubts that usual biological enhancements like for example genetic engineering or doping will push us much higher then a few %. Afterall, nature spend a few billion years on our biology. It might be already on the optimum.

Though it will be very interesting to see what they will do with technology in the next 50 years ... power armor, synthetic muscles just to name a few ...

I mean ... wtf.

Tiny nanofibers are 200 times stronger than human muscle.

They're small but mighty. The tiny artificial muscles created by an international team of researchers are 200 times stronger than human muscle fibers of comparable size. In the future, improved versions of the muscles could go into the next generation of movers and doers.

 

[Wintermind]

Sports are about selling shitty beer and merchandising. Honor and shit only comes into it for a couple of weeks every other year. Otherwise, it's about entertainment. Bigger, better athletes (On both sides of course) makes for bigger, better entertainment.

 

[Ilosar]

The brain restricts the muscles most of the time because our tendons are just not up to it.
If you could kinda override that limitation for a short time (you know, short enough to minimize the damage to your muscles, bones and tendons) you could do ridiculous stuff.
I suspect that those Shaolin monks actually do that, they use meditation and concentration to overcome the limits the brain sets to their muscles.
Well, that's what I think, anyway. Maybe it's some kind of Chi voodoo or whatever, but if a frail housewive can lift a car in an emergency situation or some dude can push away a boulder with smashed hands if it threatens to push him over a cliff I think there's simply a lot of potential in our bodies that we simply can't access.

There's a good reason those limitations are in place. It's to keep your body from destroying itself. I read a story of a guy (admitedly an amateur boxer) punching through inches-thick ice to free his trapped son, a remarkable feat of strenght... And he wounded his hands for life. Not saying the exact same thing will be demanded of athletes should drugs be legal, but there are ramifications far beyond performance. We're squishy after all.

Already in the state sports are in, many athletes (some more than others, depends on the discipline of course) live quite shitty lives with half-broken bodies because the years took a huge toll. If you start going further, your body sometimes can't take it.

 

[TorontoReign]

The brain restricts the muscles most of the time because our tendons are just not up to it.
If you could kinda override that limitation for a short time (you know, short enough to minimize the damage to your muscles, bones and tendons) you could do ridiculous stuff.
I suspect that those Shaolin monks actually do that, they use meditation and concentration to overcome the limits the brain sets to their muscles.
Well, that's what I think, anyway. Maybe it's some kind of Chi voodoo or whatever, but if a frail housewive can lift a car in an emergency situation or some dude can push away a boulder with smashed hands if it threatens to push him over a cliff I think there's simply a lot of potential in our bodies that we simply can't access.

There's a good reason those limitations are in place. It's to keep your body from destroying itself. I read a story of a guy (admitedly an amateur boxer) punching through inches-thick ice to free his trapped son, a remarkable feat of strenght... And he wounded his hands for life. Not saying the exact same thing will be demanded of athletes should drugs be legal, but there are ramifications far beyond performance. We're squishy after all.

Already in the state sports are in, many athletes (some more than others, depends on the discipline of course) live quite shitty lives with half-broken bodies because the years took a huge toll. If you start going further, your body sometimes can't take it.

Yeah, I mean look at what Batman did to himself in the latest trilogy..

 

[zegh8578]

I realize there are physical limitations, but that's also why I want limitless doping at least as a research possibility. We allready know we can get muscles to grow and accumulate enormous mass.

But it is always under certain legal limitations, and I don't know how much this has to do with the resulting product - it has to be undetectable etc. If this was no concern, "good old" steroids would see a huge comeback into this field. What about enhancements directly applied to strengthtening the tendons, maybe even stimulating those parts of the skeleton that function as tendon attachment-points?

Even those shaolin monks "play safe".

As a kid I would imagine training a gorilla to "pump iron", it would be an easy task, make it lift weights and give it proteine shakes for reward. Then on top of this, begin to give it steroids. How huge a fuckin gorilla could we end up with? I figured, in theory, this beast would lift a car, and in theory its muscle mass alone could block 9mm bullets from desperate police (perhaps not, but a fun thought!)
*daydreaming*

 

[Joelzania]

As a kid I would imagine training a gorilla to "pump iron", it would be an easy task, make it lift weights and give it proteine shakes for reward. Then on top of this, begin to give it steroids. How huge a fuckin gorilla could we end up with? I figured, in theory, this beast would lift a car, and in theory its muscle mass alone could block 9mm bullets from desperate police (perhaps not, but a fun thought!)
*daydreaming*

I'm guessing you saw the planet of the apes, maybe? I can't actually believe some scientists haven't already tried this as an idea.

 

[zegh8578]

As a kid I would imagine training a gorilla to "pump iron", it would be an easy task, make it lift weights and give it proteine shakes for reward. Then on top of this, begin to give it steroids. How huge a fuckin gorilla could we end up with? I figured, in theory, this beast would lift a car, and in theory its muscle mass alone could block 9mm bullets from desperate police (perhaps not, but a fun thought!)
*daydreaming*

I'm guessing you saw the planet of the apes, maybe? I can't actually believe some scientists haven't already tried this as an idea.

No planet of the apes (I was the kid without cable tv or vcr), but I absolutely agree with the disbelief that this has not been tried. Same goes for outright human experimentation - sure it is banned, but mere bans never stopped people before. Even the cost shoulnd't be too much of a concern, and ethics? Haha, hahaha!
So, yes, a bit puzzled!

 

[donperkan]

This discussion took an interesting turn.

Hmmm beef.

Is this doping?

Just so you know all the animals you eat are injected with chemicals to speed up muscle growth, and i mean all of them. Thrust me i'm an agronomist.

 

[zegh8578]

This discussion took an interesting turn.

Hmmm beef.

Is this doping?

Just so you know all the animals you eat are injected with chemicals to speed up muscle growth, and i mean all of them. Thrust me i'm an agronomist.

This is doping, no doubt about it. And it is an example of doping that society is mostly fine with, except for the few moments they are "confronted" with it.
Which is a whole other topic that annoys me, "Do you REALIZE what's in the hotdog you eat!?" Yes, for the most part all the unattractive meat, such as anus rings, eyelids, nipples and whatnot, who cares, it's proteine

 

[Wintermind]

Thank god for science. This is the perfect use for genetic engineering. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for pulling a Lazarus on Dinosaurs, but I'd genetically engineering cows to have more delicious bits to eat is the best things. Cows are delicious.

 

[Hassknecht]

This discussion took an interesting turn.

Hmmm beef.

Is this doping?

Just so you know all the animals you eat are injected with chemicals to speed up muscle growth, and i mean all of them. Thrust me i'm an agronomist.

This is doping, no doubt about it. And it is an example of doping that society is mostly fine with, except for the few moments they are "confronted" with it.
Which is a whole other topic that annoys me, "Do you REALIZE what's in the hotdog you eat!?" Yes, for the most part all the unattractive meat, such as anus rings, eyelids, nipples and whatnot, who cares, it's proteine

Actually, that's more breeding and engineering

 

[Ilosar]

Thank god for science. This is the perfect use for genetic engineering. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for pulling a Lazarus on Dinosaurs, but I'd genetically engineering cows to have more delicious bits to eat is the best things. Cows are delicious.

Why should we have to choose? I'd take delicious dinosaurs any day of the week.

 

[zegh8578]

This discussion took an interesting turn.

Hmmm beef.

Is this doping?

Just so you know all the animals you eat are injected with chemicals to speed up muscle growth, and i mean all of them. Thrust me i'm an agronomist.

This is doping, no doubt about it. And it is an example of doping that society is mostly fine with, except for the few moments they are "confronted" with it.
Which is a whole other topic that annoys me, "Do you REALIZE what's in the hotdog you eat!?" Yes, for the most part all the unattractive meat, such as anus rings, eyelids, nipples and whatnot, who cares, it's proteine

Actually, that's more breeding and engineering

A whole combination, of course, but steroids are fed to animals. I'm not sure the exact laws and regulations country by country, but that is the biggest cattle.. in the world?
I would be surprised if it was "dope clean", but I'm not gonna protest if I'm dead wrong here :I

 

[Hassknecht]

This discussion took an interesting turn.

Hmmm beef.

Is this doping?

Just so you know all the animals you eat are injected with chemicals to speed up muscle growth, and i mean all of them. Thrust me i'm an agronomist.

This is doping, no doubt about it. And it is an example of doping that society is mostly fine with, except for the few moments they are "confronted" with it.
Which is a whole other topic that annoys me, "Do you REALIZE what's in the hotdog you eat!?" Yes, for the most part all the unattractive meat, such as anus rings, eyelids, nipples and whatnot, who cares, it's proteine

Actually, that's more breeding and engineering

A whole combination, of course, but steroids are fed to animals. I'm not sure the exact laws and regulations country by country, but that is the biggest cattle.. in the world?
I would be surprised if it was "dope clean", but I'm not gonna protest if I'm dead wrong here :I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Blue
Those grow without any steroids.
But of course steroids are involved a lot of times.

 

[zegh8578]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Blue
Those grow without any steroids.
But of course steroids are involved a lot of times.

I remember the "gene manipulation" scare in the 90s, "Belgian Blue" was often mentioned.
I do agree that from an animal-welfare point of view, breeding often goes too far, and creates beings that suffer simply by existing ("Kill meeeeeee... ", although you see that more with dog breeding than with farm animals), but apart from that... it's kinda like with "yucky hotdog ingredients", it's mostly a problem because it becomes some kind of cultural taboo.
As a Norwegian, I often had difficulties stating why I am opposed to whaling, because everyone assumes I feel sorry for the whale, for being intelligent, or having "human emotions" (wtf does that mean!?), but I am adament that if they introduce artillery fire, then sure, hunt whales. I just want it to take less than half a day to kill one. Artillery would kill it instantly!

Hm, better let this thread tilt back in the direction of doping - back to everyone else then!

 

[Wintermind]

Thank god for science. This is the perfect use for genetic engineering. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for pulling a Lazarus on Dinosaurs, but I'd genetically engineering cows to have more delicious bits to eat is the best things. Cows are delicious.

Why should we have to choose? I'd take delicious dinosaurs any day of the week.

Because dinosaurs would think we'd be delicious. It'd also be ludicrously expensive to breed and maintain them, even if it was just for eating.

 

[donperkan]

But of course steroids are involved a lot of times.

Not just steroids. Remember that discussion about creatine. Funny story, creatine is fed to animals a week before they are sent to slaughter in order to gain weight. It's considered a fraud because the animal didn't gain muscle mass instead it gained increased concentration of water in muscles which equals more weight, which equals more money.

 

[Walpknut]

I once bought a pack of Ribs to cook in my house, when I went to prepare them they were basically Fat with a bone inside Almost no meat. Pretty disgusting.