Mascumus Idunus
First time out of the vault
im sorry. will use the spellcheck next time.
Dialogue & Intelligence
- Thread starter Brother None
- Start date
First time out of the vault
Xavierblazer
Vault Senior Citizen
Translation:Mascumus Idunus said:
Disconnected
First time out of the vault
I only really have three concerns about the dialogue:
1. Hire a fucking writer. The writing of the originals was as evocative as a blank piece of paper. BethSoft, on the other hand, has proven time & time again that the only writing they're capable of is so fucking atrocious it's an obstacle to the gameplay.
I don't want you to strive for some middle ground of mildly insulting my intelligence & boring me to death, I want you to hire a fucking writer. It's not like you don't have the budget.
2. The originals did an, at the time fairly impressive, job of giving me real dialogue options. Today, it doesn't impress. You've had a fucking decade to learn how to let a conversation play out in several distinct ways in games, and your budgets have increased by about 1,000 percent. If you don't deliver something that makes the original Fallouts look like finely distilled phail, you're in the wrong line of work.
3. The very best thing about the originals was that dialogue & quests weren't separate things, but rather a whole that came together, enabling the player to approach and resolve various situations in a couple of different ways. BethSoft have, of course, never tried anything of the sort, but still.. It's another one of those things you have had a decade & hideous amounts of money to refine & improve. I don't expect a couple of different ways for dialogues & quests to work together and accommodate multiple different ways of resolving quests. I expect a metric fuck-ton of ways to do it. Or rather, that's what I should expect.
Instead, I expect infantile writing, character-free characters, and if the difference between Morrowind & Oblivion is a good indication; quests that solve themselves.
I really like how you guys joke about AoD. At least those guys haven't had a massive staff, 10 years and several million USD to raise the bar of roleplaying in games. If they manage to do as well as the Fallouts did, then they did it with less resources, less experience and a whole hell of a lot less help. If the team behind Gunblivion could say the same, I'd cut them the same kind of slack. But their problem isn't being limited by circumstance, they're simply not interested in taking gaming forward.
1. Hire a fucking writer. The writing of the originals was as evocative as a blank piece of paper. BethSoft, on the other hand, has proven time & time again that the only writing they're capable of is so fucking atrocious it's an obstacle to the gameplay.
I don't want you to strive for some middle ground of mildly insulting my intelligence & boring me to death, I want you to hire a fucking writer. It's not like you don't have the budget.
2. The originals did an, at the time fairly impressive, job of giving me real dialogue options. Today, it doesn't impress. You've had a fucking decade to learn how to let a conversation play out in several distinct ways in games, and your budgets have increased by about 1,000 percent. If you don't deliver something that makes the original Fallouts look like finely distilled phail, you're in the wrong line of work.
3. The very best thing about the originals was that dialogue & quests weren't separate things, but rather a whole that came together, enabling the player to approach and resolve various situations in a couple of different ways. BethSoft have, of course, never tried anything of the sort, but still.. It's another one of those things you have had a decade & hideous amounts of money to refine & improve. I don't expect a couple of different ways for dialogues & quests to work together and accommodate multiple different ways of resolving quests. I expect a metric fuck-ton of ways to do it. Or rather, that's what I should expect.
Instead, I expect infantile writing, character-free characters, and if the difference between Morrowind & Oblivion is a good indication; quests that solve themselves.
I really like how you guys joke about AoD. At least those guys haven't had a massive staff, 10 years and several million USD to raise the bar of roleplaying in games. If they manage to do as well as the Fallouts did, then they did it with less resources, less experience and a whole hell of a lot less help. If the team behind Gunblivion could say the same, I'd cut them the same kind of slack. But their problem isn't being limited by circumstance, they're simply not interested in taking gaming forward.
Xavierblazer
Vault Senior Citizen
Put yourself in their shoes:Disconnected said:
You could make the game Gunblivion and have appeal to all the console munchkins, whores, and Bethesda bitches, and get this:
Or you could make the best game ever, which would not appeal to all the kids who beg there parents for 500+ dollars every time something new comes out(Screw this, these guys are talking too much, I wanna shoot something. Im SPECIAL, teehee. WEE A GHOUL I BETTAR SHOOT IT IN THE ARM)
In which case:
But a big thumbs up from a fanbase crazier about Fallout than...ummm...
Its like this:
Lets say theres a bunch of middle aged old men(Black Isle) who have a baby(Fallout) and we(Fallout Fans) adopt the baby in a SUPPORT A CHILD IN AFRICA! DONATE A BAG OF RICE AND SOME TOYS! Kinda relationship. We play with the baby, encourage it, make it grow, nurture it, generally lovey foster parents stuff. We love it like it was our own child. Then Satan(Bethesda) takes the baby's name and a little bit of it's look, rape it, dress it up, hand it a shiny rocket launcher, pump it full of Jet and Steroids, Dye it green, then place the remains on top of Damien(Oblivion).
Mascumus Idunus
First time out of the vault
ok i was blized of my ass, and i was using some mushrom that i found under the bed. I was triping balls, just re-read my post and found it to be a lite confusing and not so good as thoth it was in my head. Personaly i blame the goverment, why them i dont know.
what i wanted to realy say.
1. I thogth NMA was a feral fanboy comunety, where norms was eaten. After doing some reading on the site i fond it well informed of fallout 3 histroy.
2. I dont trust gaming jurnalisem, after they gave high score to games how were total crap to play.
3. what is the point of scores anyway, i dont like playing need fore speed. it got high score but fore me it is a low score. like lands of lore 3 (kingdom) i loved it but it was trashed by the gameing press.
im just clarefiying my position (and saving my own ass from asshatery)
Peace
[/quote]
D
Deleted member 53669
Guest
[/quote]Mascumus Idunus said:
Hahahaha dude. I'm usually very liberal in my judgment of bad grammar, but I have to say that you really need to check your typing skills. I was reading your post not for information, but for the fact that I could not stop laughing.
And on the subject brought up earlier by Brother None and Body Bag about SS2, Bioshock, Fallout, and the "Dumbing down" of video games.
The whole point of view we have concerning the subject comes from our like of the restrictive elements of an RPG's system. For example, Fallout itself is not a sandbox experience. It uses the game engine to restrict the character in essence to make it more entertaining. In SS2 and Fallout, the PC could only make most decisions once. Character stats would not be nerfed, therefore a character without a decent first-aid skill, for example, would have to make meaningful and logical decisions about how to play his character through the game, coping with his lack of medical knowledge with other skills. This brings out a whole new element in the game; A forward-looking tactical strategy offering a unique experience with that character. That is what made Fallout and SS2 both appealing in their RPG systems.
In Bioshock and Oblivion, the character development was sandboxed and "Dumbed Down" to appeal to people who are to near-sighted or ADD induced to be able to coordinate a strategy with their avatar. If you started off with a low first-aid skill, you could simply nerf that skill later in the game. This would take away from the experience of playing a select avatar, and brings replay value almost to 0. The rules and strict regulation of the game is what makes the game more appealing to more intelligent and pragmatic gamers, for they have to make intelligent decisions. Taking that factor away from the game IS "DUMBING THE GAME DOWN".
Also, to bring up another thread since this seems relevant.
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42000
welsh said:
That is what makes Fallout and SS2 more an artwork than Bioshock and Oblivion. The game is structured by rules and regulations more so than other games, and is reliant on material created by the developer, making him the artist. In sandbox games however, there is no contrast since there isn't a meaning in your actions. You are a Superman, and cannot be dictated by any laws. Everything you do is meaningless.
Xavierblazer
Vault Senior Citizen
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18487&highlight=beware+ides+marchMascumus Idunus said:
I remember that day. I remember I was so excited to see what Wooz would do,and that I came up with the theory that The Order was created when god farted them out, or something like that.
I have no Idea where the jew comparison came from.
But, to stay on topic...
Wow...Never thought of it that way before. Sometimes, handicaps make things funner, in a strategy kinda way.
It kinda reflects Computer Programming, and Life in general: There are at least 10 different ways to acieve any goal. It all boils down to A: Your own skills, B: your personal style, and C: Your current mood. Its not a "Play till your god" thing like Morrowind, because in Fallout there was really only one real goal, to beat the game. Its how you get there that is the real fun.
You should, like, write a thesis or something.
Brilliant observations. I noticed that the sandbox mode in GTA eventually killed the game for me, because once you beat the game, all you can really do is start over, recollect those tapes(or shells, or whatever) Its a HUGS sandbox, but a sandbox nonetheless.
Like I said before, the whole goal of any game, really, is to beat it. Its how we get to the end that is the fun part(for me, anyways). If you do the same exact things, only in different order, its still going to get old. That is why RPGs appeal to me so much, because there are usually dozens of ways to progress through the games, either as a Combat Maniac, A diplomat, a thief, a mage, a monk, cleric, ranger, wizard, ect.
The best mental image for this would probably be the second floor of the Toxic caves(kinda)
Theres the middle path, which has many geckos. Your goal is to plan a strategy on how to kill them to proceed.
The top path: only two geckos, but a big puddle of goo. Use your intelligence(as a gamer, not your PC INT stat) and common sense to use the boots and get past, with a little combat to spice things up(or utilize your Sir Robin abilities and run away)
The bottom path, little geckos, puddle at the end. Stick to the shadows and sneak past the geckos. Or use a rifle and snipe them.
See, the main goal is to get to Smiley, but there are multiple paths you can take. In your next game, take a different path, ect.
D
Deleted member 53669
Guest
Well you do have to understand that my views are a subjective. Don't go and think anyway because someone else said something. Figure it out for yourself.
Xavierblazer
Vault Senior Citizen
Fallout, to me, is like a muddy shoe. It may be rough and dirty on the outside, but on the inside is a smelly foot. Remove that foot, clean the shoe(and the foot, if you're into that kind of thing) and replace foot. Then you go out and enjoy what you have set up, but it gets muddy again, so rinse and repeat.
Fallout is the shoe. I am the foot. I Immerse myself in Fallout, and it can be fun for a while. But after a while I just need to take off the shoe and let it air out for a while.
ummm...whatever,
Anyway:
What I like about NMA is that 99.9% of the people do not treat you like a stupid noob unless you act like one. As long as you abide by all the rules(and I mean ALL of them, they are rules for good reason) then you will eventually become one of the furniture, a conversation piece, ect.
2: The bad thing about it is that the younger journalists usually try to up their popularity by hyping the popular games, and old journalists are usually on to bigger and better things.
3: I agree. The score is based on the reviewer's opinion of the game.
I am an hardcore CRPG nerd. If I were to review a CRPG, then I would rate it highly unless it deserved to be shot. If I were to review a fishing or baseball game, I would give them low scores because I despise that kind of game(EDIT: I despise "Playing" that kind of game)
But an outdoors enthusiast might give the fishing game a 9.3, and give Fallout a 3.2
Its all in the opinion of the reviewer.
What I do pay attention to, when I read a review, is the Pros and Cons of the game. What makes this game Fun, what makes this game Boring.
Some people might find that spending 3 hours on a Character Creation screen is a waste of a life, but I find it exhilarating to find out how something works, and how I can improve it.
To some, gaming is a way of life. Ill probably do something related to gaming(either programming, or get a programming job to support my gaming habbits) but the average working duder who only has about 2 hours a day to play games might enjoy a Sports game or a Platformer more than an RPG.
Its all in the Eye of the Beholder, really.
Fallout is the shoe. I am the foot. I Immerse myself in Fallout, and it can be fun for a while. But after a while I just need to take off the shoe and let it air out for a while.
ummm...whatever,
Anyway:
1: Its amazing what people think about NMA, about how we act as if we were an Unwashed Villager attacking a Spammer.
What I like about NMA is that 99.9% of the people do not treat you like a stupid noob unless you act like one. As long as you abide by all the rules(and I mean ALL of them, they are rules for good reason) then you will eventually become one of the furniture, a conversation piece, ect.
2: The bad thing about it is that the younger journalists usually try to up their popularity by hyping the popular games, and old journalists are usually on to bigger and better things.
3: I agree. The score is based on the reviewer's opinion of the game.
I am an hardcore CRPG nerd. If I were to review a CRPG, then I would rate it highly unless it deserved to be shot. If I were to review a fishing or baseball game, I would give them low scores because I despise that kind of game(EDIT: I despise "Playing" that kind of game)
But an outdoors enthusiast might give the fishing game a 9.3, and give Fallout a 3.2
Its all in the opinion of the reviewer.
What I do pay attention to, when I read a review, is the Pros and Cons of the game. What makes this game Fun, what makes this game Boring.
Some people might find that spending 3 hours on a Character Creation screen is a waste of a life, but I find it exhilarating to find out how something works, and how I can improve it.
To some, gaming is a way of life. Ill probably do something related to gaming(either programming, or get a programming job to support my gaming habbits) but the average working duder who only has about 2 hours a day to play games might enjoy a Sports game or a Platformer more than an RPG.
Its all in the Eye of the Beholder, really.
D
Deleted member 53669
Guest
Gizmo_Iz_Slug said:
God, looking at you guys, I've realized I've been dry too long. Need to get into contact with my old dealer. He probably works for Bethesda now, since thats how they sell.
Moving Target
Mildly Dipped
Gizmo_Iz_Slug said:
A day late and a buck short, but....can I sig this? It's just so off-the-wall, I love it.
Jiggly McNerdington
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
How come you guys get to be the orcs? If me and Bodybag get lumped as trolls often enough I think we should be with the orcs.Brother None said:
Jiggly McNerdington
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Bernard Bumner
Still Mildly Glowing
Brother None said:
That might be one of the most depressing things I've heard for a while. Given what happened to Get Carter, I think there should be some kind of law passed against this kind of idiocy...
Brother None said:
Independent films, independent gaming. Praise be.
People who make products for the love of the thing, not just for the gain of shareholders. It also goes to show that there is an appetite for intelligent and challenging media, for those things which are called old-school by PR men.