Dialogue & Intelligence

[Brother None]

Right. I never said that. And those Fallout fans you speak of? I are one. So don't talk to me like I've somehow broken some sort of special Fallout brotherhood by seeing a fairly positive bit of news from Emil as actually being positive news.

It's not like there's half a dozen positive responses in the first page of this thread, huh.

 

[Bodybag]

How so? Where was I comparing Fallout 3 as a game to BioShock as a game?

Where was I comparing AoD as a game to Fallout as a game? All I did was link to an example of dialogue to show that the games don't appear to be that out of sync in that regard, which is relevant considering that AoD is somewhat considered to be a "spiritual successor" to Fallout. (NOW I've compard them!) Is that so FREAKING far out of line with what you're doing with SS/BS--->Fallout 3?

I'm going to assume you're trolling and ignore this, it's not very relevant to my argument any way, whether BioShock or SS2 is the better game.

It might be a little more nuanced than that, BN.

What's relevant is this: Ken Levine notes that dumbing down the narrative sells more, your story has to be fucking stupid, in his own words, to sell. That matches up fairly well with the way Fallout 3 is being treated to turn to a mass product.

Ken Levine made a statement that was awkward at best, but I think he did a good job of clarifying it with that link you provided. I also don't see any indication of how Fallout 3's story is being dumbed down for the masses, making this a relevant comparison for debate. We know there won't be stupid character dialogue options, which litterally means the dialogue gets smarter.*

Now get this, it doesn't matter if you want to troll about BS being better than SS 2 or if you believe that dumbed down games selling more makes them superior games because money = quality,

It's only trolling if you don't agree. What I'm saying is that BS isn't dumbed down. The stuff (detailed in the review I linked) that kept SS2 from being as good as it could have been was excised in BS, and it was rewarded accordingly. I wouldn't go as far as to say money = quality, but I also wouldn't take it upon myself to relegate the entirety of the masses to second-class citizens of questionable taste. The way I see it, if Bioshock was such a hit with so many different gamers then it did something right.

what matters is that Ken Levine is a good example of what we're saying when we talk about dumbing down products, spiritual or real sequels, to compare to what's happening to Fallout 3.

When you read his clarification, it doesn't sound nearly as damning:

However, once people are attached to those primal threads, they can, IF THEY CHOOSE, go deeper. That’s where in BioShock all the other storytelling devices kick in: the diaries, the public service announcements, the posters, the thousands of little scenes in the world of Rapture that tell the story of what happened there.

Which is another way of saying "we didn't force it down their throats." I' actually like to believe that this mentality is indeed being brought along to Fallout 3, but so far it doesn't sound anything like the differences between the Original Fallout and Bethesda's sequel to me. NOT CONGRUENT.

Sandbox means you can do whatever you want.

Sandbox to me means open world. I'm not really all that interested in haggling over accepted definitions, though, so if you want to cling to that as an absolute I'll go ahead and FORFEIT.

I note you're ignoring a lot of points and posts where it's convenient for you, BB.

I was just warned about double-posting

Seriously, do I need to respond to every single wiseass mudcrab dig? It's possible that I even agree with you guys to some extent on certain things and instead focus on the instances where our views differ. If I only wanted to troll I'd go after Black with every post.

*notes a joke.

 

[Sander]

It's only trolling if you don't agree. What I'm saying is that BS isn't dumbed down. The stuff (detailed in the review I linked) that kept SS2 from being as good as it could have been was excised in BS, and it was rewarded accordingly.

Most people see it exactly the other way around, the fact that you found exactly 1 review to support this doesn't change a thing about that.

It's only trolling if you don't agree. What I'm saying is that BS isn't dumbed down. The stuff (detailed in the review I linked) that kept SS2 from being as good as it could have been was excised in BS, and it was rewarded accordingly. I wouldn't go as far as to say money = quality, but I also wouldn't take it upon myself to relegate the entirety of the masses to second-class citizens of questionable taste. The way I see it, if Bioshock was such a hit with so many different gamers then it did something right.

The thing it did right was appeal to the broadest possible audience.
And the broadest possible audience is completely irrelevant to what this thread or this argument is about. In fact, a consistent point has been that Bioshock was dumbed down to do just that: reach a very broad audience. Now I don't know about you, but the fact that it reached a very broad audience seems pretty supportive of that statement.

Which is another way of saying "we didn't force it down their throats." I' actually like to believe that this mentality is indeed being brought along to Fallout 3, but so far it doesn't sound anything like the differences between the Original Fallout and Bethesda's sequel to me. NOT CONGRUENT.

Bioshock had a very simple story: find, kill, kill. Ken Levine said they took that simple story as a basis because they had to to reach the masses.
Now, a story that has to be that simple at its core is never going to be intricate, very interesting or allow for much choice and consequences - because that would be too difficult.

 

[Brother None]

Where was I comparing AoD as a game to Fallout as a game? All I did was link to an example of dialogue to show that the games don't appear to be that out of sync in that regard, which is relevant considering that AoD is somewhat considered to be a "spiritual successor" to Fallout. (NOW I've compard them!) Is that so FREAKING far out of line with what you're doing with SS/BS--->Fallout 3?

I'm talking about design philosophy, I was saying that when people say "dumbing down games" (for console tards or whoever) is nonsense, they forget BioShock. It's a similar circumstance, it might as well be the friggin' Mario Kart, that doesn't matter.

Your comparison has been shot down because it's irrelevant. AoD might be a spiritual successor or not (whether it's any good at that we won't know until we play it), that doesn't mean that somehow AoD's dialogue options or lack of said options reflects on Fallout 3. As pointed out multiple times now, the only really relevant comparison would be to Fallout 1.

I would've thought this would've been made very clear by now.

Ken Levine made a statement that was awkward at best, but I think he did a good job of clarifying it with that link you provided.

He clarified it, sure, he didn't negate the "I sold out for the big bucks" factor.

Note how I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with that, it's just what he did. And to do that, he made a new IP with a new company, separate from SS2 (even if that game was somewhat abused for PR). Guess what? That's fine.

I also don't see any indication of how Fallout 3's story is being dumbed down for the masses, making this a relevant comparison for debate. We know there won't be stupid character dialogue options, which litterally means the dialogue gets smarter.

Very funny.

We don't know anything about Fallout 3's story, but BioShock's dumbing down isn't limited to the narrative, it encompasses the gameplay, specifically the "you can't die or lose" mechanic, as well.

It's only trolling if you don't agree.

Not really, it's trolling because you're trying to get a rise out of me on this topic. But I don't care about it enough to bite. Sorry.

I wouldn't go as far as to say money = quality, but I also wouldn't take it upon myself to relegate the entirety of the masses to second-class citizens of questionable taste. The way I see it, if Bioshock was such a hit with so many different gamers then it did something right.

I never denied that it did something right. I never said the masses are second-class or that they have questionable taste.

You just missed the entire point. It's not about absolute superiority, inferiority or quality, such comparisons are futile, it's about what the franchise already is, and if you're changing it or not. Obviously, that's not the case for BS, but it damned well is for Fallout.

Which is another way of saying "we didn't force it down their throats."

Yes, optional narrative.

Not exactly a new approach. I wish BS was limited to just that.

Levine is also being naive in thinking he can educate the masses. People like playing simpler games as much as they did 10 years ago and as much as they will in 10 years time.

but so far it doesn't sound anything like the differences between the Original Fallout and Bethesda's sequel to me.

You mean "they're not identical"? Of course they're not.

But they're both trying to widen the audience of their predecessor. SS2 sold 200k copies, Fallout 1/2 about 1M. Ken Levine wanted to sell more, and so does Bethesda. That involves certain choices. Ken Levine is very honest about those choices, up to a point. Just because Bethesda is less honest about it, that means the choice isn't the same? Don't think so.

Sandbox to me means open world.

It is called sandbox because the player can play endlessly without structures or artificial added boundaries. That's where the term comes from, y'know.

I was just warned about double-posting

There's an edit button.

Seriously, do I need to respond to every single wiseass mudcrab dig? It's possible that I even agree with you guys to some extent on certain things and instead focus on the instances where our views differ. If I only wanted to troll I'd go after Black with every post.

You don't need to do anything, just pointing out, it's not polite.

 

[Zaptoman]

It's not like there's half a dozen positive responses in the first page of this thread, huh.

Aye, in fact I was amazed for the first page - until the thread turned into a gang up on bodybag thread and summarily devolved into what it is now, which is less of an intelligent discussion and more of an exercise in rhetoric (see discussion over the meaning of "sandbox").

 

[Brother None]

Aye, in fact I was amazed for the first page - until the thread turned into a gang up on bodybag thread and summarily devolved into what it is now, which is less of an intelligent discussion and more of an exorcise in rhetoric (see discussion over the meaning of "sandbox").

Yeah this is getting pretty futile. Hell, it's been pretty futile for 2 pages now. But hell, 's what the internet is for. This thread is like a summary of the Bethesda Fallout 3 forum, now.

But in that case your remark is empty too, because the "hate fest" would be the "debate" between Jiggly, Bodybag, you and the MASSIVE SCARY NMA HORDEZ. The news itself got a positive response, it's just the veracity of Bethesda that's being put in doubt. Nobody is saying that this is bad if it's true. If it's true, it's great and we'll all be masturbating soon.

 

[Zaptoman]

Yeah this is getting pretty futile. Hell, it's been pretty futile for 2 pages now. But hell, 's what the internet is for. This thread is like a summary of the Bethesda Fallout 3 forum, now.

But in that case your remark is empty too, because the "hate fest" would be the "debate" between Jiggly, Bodybag, you and the MASSIVE SCARY NMA HORDEZ. The news itself got a positive response, it's just the veracity of Bethesda that's being put in doubt. Nobody is saying that this is bad if it's true. If it's true, it's great and we'll all be masturbating soon.

Lol. I have to give you props BN, you had me laughing twice in that post. Scary NMA HORDEZ. Nice. And of course the last part. Nicely done.

 

[Bodybag]

Oh and to 4too - my 30% playthrough was approximately how much of Oblivion I completed before I got sucked into BF2142. I finished the thieves guild and dark brotherhood quests and became the arena champion, but never EVEN saw an Oblivion gate. I also rid the sewers of Vampires.

30%!

 

[Per]

(Go to a random NPC in a town in Fallout and talk to them. They say one thing and you get no chance to reply)

And in Fallout 2, Chris Avellone stuck hundreds of floats on no-name NPCs.

Aye, in fact I was amazed for the first page - until the thread turned into a gang up on bodybag thread

The only thing Bodybag does here is fling jabs in order to get that kind of reaction, so are you surprised? Or are you directing your tut-tuts at him?

 

[fireb0rn]

And the dialogue itself wasn't bad

What dialogue? You usually had this:


- Blatantly Obvious Quest Line
- Yes
- No
- Rumours

You forgot:

- Gray Fox

The dialogue doesn't sound too bad, though I'm kind of disappointed you can't play the caveman character (Int = 3) game. Then again, I'm having trouble trusting Bethesda after Radiant AI.

 

[Bernard Bumner]

But they're both trying to widen the audience of their predecessor. SS2 sold 200k copies, Fallout 1/2 about 1M.

The thing to note about all of those games is that they were only available on a single platform (or one-and-a-half, if you count the Mac).

The broadening of sequels is not about taking games which couldn't sell and making them more successful, it is about appealing to absolutely the largest possible market. That is a very conscious and openly discussed direction.

The problem there is that, rather than making a great and distinguished game which only sells well, we end up with very generic and unchallenging products which sell very well.

There is a direct analogy in Hollywood production.

But, could you imagine a remake of Goodfellas, but starring Jason Statham and directed by Paul W. S. Anderson? "We made it better by removing the dialogue and plot, putting in some zombies and more gunfights..."

 

[Ravager69]

BTW I can't imagine the Overseer sending someone retarded to find the only thing that can save the Vault from certain death. Thus, player should have at least 4 Intelligence limit.

 

[Mascumus Idunus]

Yeah this is getting pretty futile. Hell, it's been pretty futile for 2 pages now. But hell, 's what the internet is for. This thread is like a summary of the Bethesda Fallout 3 forum, now.

But in that case your remark is empty too, because the "hate fest" would be the "debate" between Jiggly, Bodybag, you and the MASSIVE SCARY NMA HORDEZ. The news itself got a positive response, it's just the veracity of Bethesda that's being put in doubt. Nobody is saying that this is bad if it's true. If it's true, it's great and we'll all be masturbating soon.

Lol. I have to give you props BN, you had me laughing twice in that post. Scary NMA HORDEZ. Nice. And of course the last part. Nicely done.

lol wean i first come to this side i was in the impresstion of diehard fanboys, but after reading some more and the eexcellent artilel ffa3 pprewevand fa3 QA, i saw more refletive information than i have seen in pc gamer (uk). i had high hops on fallout 3, i still hope it will turn ok after modings. I dont trust gaming jurloisam enymore after they gave doom and oblivon higth marks. I rater join the hord, then read more brainles colercoded rewes white scorcs of 9.99991

 

[Sander]

BTW I can't imagine the Overseer sending someone retarded to find the only thing that can save the Vault from certain death. Thus, player should have at least 4 Intelligence limit.

The Overseer can use sending you out as a way to get rid of a retard. In fact, it's suggested that that is how he works from his later casting you out and the previous vault dweller who failed and turned into a ghoul.

Also, Bernard, a lot of Hollywood sequels are also nowhere near the original.

 

[Brother None]

But, could you imagine a remake of Goodfellas, but starring Jason Statham and directed by Paul W. S. Anderson? "We made it better by removing the dialogue and plot, putting in some zombies and more gunfights..."

Considering Paul W.S. Anderson is directing a remake of the Long Good Friday, which is a vastly better gangster film than Goodfellas...yes?

Hollywood is going through a massive phase of creative bankruptcy, forcing it do terrible remakes of classics from any time. Hollywood is, in fact, much worse than the gaming industry. What makes it seem better is that film-making is more significantly varied, in US independent and world-wide cinema productions, than gaming is.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Considering Paul W.S. Anderson is directing a remake of the Long Good Friday, which is a vastly better gangster film than Goodfellas...yes?

Hollywood is going through a massive phase of creative bankruptcy, forcing it do terrible remakes of classics from any time. Hollywood is, in fact, much worse than the gaming industry. What makes it seem better is that film-making is more significantly varied, in US independent and world-wide cinema productions, than gaming is.

You said it regarding the quality of Hollywood movies, years ago I loved watching movies and going to the cinema.
But these days there is barely anything watching there anymore, okay I have a bit of a specific taste but at some points a lot of movies were still enjoyable.

And yes, games are starting to look more and more alike.
Like movies I used buy several each year, now only a handful have my interest but I still waiting if they are worth it.

 

[Forhekset]

Yeah this is getting pretty futile. Hell, it's been pretty futile for 2 pages now. But hell, 's what the internet is for. This thread is like a summary of the Bethesda Fallout 3 forum, now.

But in that case your remark is empty too, because the "hate fest" would be the "debate" between Jiggly, Bodybag, you and the MASSIVE SCARY NMA HORDEZ. The news itself got a positive response, it's just the veracity of Bethesda that's being put in doubt. Nobody is saying that this is bad if it's true. If it's true, it's great and we'll all be masturbating soon.

Lol. I have to give you props BN, you had me laughing twice in that post. Scary NMA HORDEZ. Nice. And of course the last part. Nicely done.

lol wean i first come to this side i was in the impresstion of diehard fanboys, but after reading some more and the eexcellent artilel ffa3 pprewevand fa3 QA, i saw more refletive information than i have seen in pc gamer (uk). i had high hops on fallout 3, i still hope it will turn ok after modings. I dont trust gaming jurloisam enymore after they gave doom and oblivon higth marks. I rater join the hord, then read more brainles colercoded rewes white scorcs of 9.99991

Damn dude, mix in a few words of English here and there, will you?

BTW I can't imagine the Overseer sending someone retarded to find the only thing that can save the Vault from certain death. Thus, player should have at least 4 Intelligence limit.

Maybe it's slightly unrealistic (or maybe not if you buy Sander's theory). But at least you have the choice. Bethesda's taken that choice away. I never played as a particularly stupid character in any of my FO playthroughs, because I love having as many dialogue options as possible in RPGs of that nature. But I was still a little sad to read Emil's statement that you wouldn't be able to urgghh and egghh your way through the game. Like groin shots and child killing, it just seems unnecessary to remove these things from the series.

 

[Ravager69]

Anyone noticed the crappy quality of the mass-media overall we have nowadays? Music, movies and games are of terrible quality, with few exceptions. What the hell is going on?

Bethesda's reach is bigger than one could thought?

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Anyone noticed the crappy quality of the mass-media overall we have nowadays? Music, movies and games are of terrible quality, with few exceptions. What the hell is going on?

Its the current trend, perhaps it some sort of conspiracy to desensitize the common people, turning them into mindless drones, or anarchists as in some cases.

 

[patriot_41]

turning them into mindless drones, or anarchists as in some cases.

After seeing a leaflet by the Federation of Anarchists, I tend to believe it's one and the same thing.