Did James have to kill himself in Fallout 3?

[H3rw00d1]

First of all. you need to pay more attention to the game.
Nipton is directly stated to be a rather recent settlement, most of New Vegas towns are recent settlements. Nipton didn't survive 200 years, it was a town founded by convicts that mostly dealed in prostitution and similar things altho in smaller scale, and they survived off that because they are in the middle of the safest road to get to the Strip and back. Also, what? dud the Lottery? Did you pay any attention? that thing was set up by the Legion to drawn out their destruction.

Ok fine, my bad, but even then, whats going to happen to it when the main road gets cleared up? Their town is going to shrivel into nothing and be useless. THEN if their town still survives I will be surely disappointed.

Do all Fallout 3 fans have such short attention spans?

That is uncalled for, I recognize that F3 has a clusterfuck of flaws, but I at least try to make sense of with what I got. That's pretty much the reason for the exsitance of TVTrope's WMG page. And even then, I agree that New Vegas has better quests and better everything so I'm hardly a "F3 fanboy".

Now back to Megaton, they are a hub, okay, a hub for what? Were are people going to that they need to go to Megaton? What services do they provide aside from 1 bar and 1 hooker?

Supplies from Moira's shop, which they probably get from scavenging around and fixing up. The water treatment plant they have could also bring about fresh water that they are stated to have several times. Not enough water for "feeding the wasteland" but enough to be profitable.

The caravans "probably get their food from outside" okay, from where? Why do they traverse such a shitty region with no economy to sell their supplies?

Why do charities give food to shitty regions in Africa despite no profitable gain? It's been 200 years, is it a strech to think that someone has the resources to pull something together like that? There are still places in CW for them to sell their supplies to with communities in the middle, you make more money by stopping by.

And again, if they can't grow crops, raise animals or produce anythign for themselves, how have they survived other than for the fact that fallout 3's writters are idiots? Why do people stay in that region if they can't even grow crops?

Because of places like Rivet City, places that they can still purchase items from. In fact, why don't people in Africa just leave their villages and move on in RL?

 

[Walpknut]

"THEN if their town still survives I will be surely disappointed."

You realize that they got BRUNED DOWN TO THE GROUND by the legion? They are dead, they are no longer a town, they wouldn't be able to survive for long, but that's not even an argument now because they are no longer alive.

"Supplier from Moira's shop".
Oh my god, they need those scraps of metal some crazy chick got while scavenging.... it's not like they could just scavenge theselves.
Also, that water pump only produced irradiated water... so yeah....
What are they a Hub for? From where and to where do people have to go for Megaton to be a hub for anything again?

"Why do charities give food to shitty regions in Africa despite no profitable gain? There are still places in CW for them to sell their supplies to with communities in the middle, you make more money by stopping by."
Because we don't live in a post apcoalyptic world and those charities are funded by people and organizations with supplies and money to spare.

"Because of places like Rivet City, places that they can still purchase items from. In fact, why don't people in Africa just leave their villages and move on in RL?"

Where does Rivet City get their supplies from anyway? they are a ship with no farms and crops yet they seem to have clothes to sell and a way to pay for security.
Also: http://www.globalissues.org/issue/83/conflicts-in-africa
Educate yourself on the Issues in Africa. You seem to not even know what the fuck is going on there yet you are still using that as a blanket argument.
Edit Also relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_East_Africa_drought

 

[Kalasanty11]

Apparently so, considering that they've survived with one brahmin. And what are they going to use to move the bomb anyway, their bare hands? In fact, would YOU want to touch the bomb after it's been sitting there doing nothing for 200 years, since you seem like it would be piss easy to do it.

So, you think that one brahmin is enough for entire town. Badass brahmin.
Yes, they can use their "bare hands" to dismantle it. I remind you, they had no problems whatsoever with dismantling freaking airport and dragging parts to the site of the town. That fan over the entrance itself... just think about it for a moment. Nuke is a cool breeze compared to it. Or ask somebody to disarm it (like your goody-two-shoes father), under supervision of course.

A better question would be "Why are TCoA leaving the city for no reason?"

Have you already forgotten about "splintered group of them in Broken Steel" that you yourself were talking about?

If the LW enters the city for the first time wearing a Vault suit

Exactly - if. If he doesn't, is he searched? He isn't. He still is allowed to aproach a bomb with no problem whatsoever.

Like you said, bad design. Probably not what would happen in-universe, do you think Fallout 1's graphics just changed into F3's over time in-universe? Nope, it was the game design, Gameplay/Story Segregation.

What does it have to do with Simms written in godawful way? A result of making 3D game?
As for searching - I was talking about idea, not execution. There is such a thing in NV, there isn't in F3. Simple as that.

The same way Shady Sands surviving despite a clusterfuck of raider attacks, radscorpion invasions, loosing manpower and loosing some of their valuable crops was a "miracle".

You seriously want to compare bunch of raiders armed mostly with knives IIRC to organized force of guys in combat armors, laser weaponry, missile launchers and freaking FAT-MEN? And overgrown, slow scorpions to behemots? Surely you are joking?
Ah, so you noticed that Shady Sands needed crops to survive. I think we are making a progress.

 

[Walpknut]

He is clearly grasping at straws and most of his arguments stem from not even being able to comprehend the story and context for the towns he brings up in game. He just looks for towns that had issues in the games and point his finger without realizing the things that happened to the towns i nstory, like his completely nonsensical use of Nipton, even ignoring that the only thing we see of the town in game is after it has been destroyed.
He is gonna ask you something about Africa next.

 

[Kalasanty11]

The water treatment plant they have could also bring about fresh water that they are stated to have several times. Not enough water for "feeding the wasteland" but enough to be profitable.

That's also what I thought... and then Broken Steel happened. When BoS palladins approach the town, they are greeted by town denizens... with guns. Those guys demand from palladins to give them all the water, because what they got apparently wasn't enough for their needs. They had to pretty desperate if they decided to attack guys with miniguns and power armour. Which of course ends with their demise, if you don't react. So I wouldn't say that they use much water for trading.

 

[naossano]

So they are willing to risk their lives because they are so desperate to get something they already have (through the Mr Handy help), and never needed so badly before, never complaining of the lack of it all. But now that there is ton of it all around, it suddenly become essential for them. That Broken Crap make so much sense...

 

[Walpknut]

Moar liek Broken Still.

 

[Crni Vuk]

You realize you are comparing two completely different kids of quests as if they were given the same importance?

I know they're not of the same importance, I'm imagining it as "what would people do directly after a nuke?" Would scavengers be looking for supplies or would they be looking for a mythical casino in the desert?

that is the point though, Vegas isnt set directly after the nukes hit, but some 150 years after that - dont know the exact time line right now. Not to mention that House has spend a great deal of resources to make the strip and Vegas runing, that you have both the Legion and the NCR with a foot in New Vegas, that you have some kind of economy runing in the background, with caravans, water supplies etc. And the developers even took their time to find some explanation why most of the buildings are still standing, because house and his anti-nuke-shield. That is the way how you create a believable setting in my opinion.

This is the place where the player has been thrown in. Sure it lost somewhat that "wasteland" feeling, but it is not completely gone either. I think Vegas contained a lot more interesting characters then F3 since most well honestly ALL of F3 characters had the depth of a sheet of paper. And to say that, I dont like all NPCs in Vegas, particularly the legion is super flat, more like a comical villain, this is sadly where Fallout Vegas falls apart for me, but the NCR? The Khans? The rest is pretty well done, so I can forgive them that. I just wish Caesar Salad was not such a douche and the Legion not so much about "hur durr romans everywhere we crucify youuuuu for fun!" in your face. Should have been more subtle in my opinion and Caesar a much more charistmatic and intelligent leader. The minimum Vegas should have done is to show a Legion town, showing a prosperous and strong community, even if it was lead with an iron fist. I think for the game it would have been better if Nipton was actually a Legion town that got sacked by the NCR and their soldiers, sick and frustrated from the long battle they crucified the civilian population to mock the Legion and the NCR is turning a blind eye on "some" of those atrocities, because hey? Its war no? And you need every soldier you can get. Think about a Vietnam-War situation here. While at the same time doing good things for the reagion with their farms and water-project.

I dont mind a survival setting, if done well, and visually I think F3 was pretty good. Not perfect. But good. They really managed to get the post-apoc feeling right and their art direction was most of the time doing a great job. Where the game falls apart is when you try to think. That is when you realize that the raider population outweights the normal citizens 100 to 1, when you realize that the super mutants in this game serve absolutely no purpose except for beeing target practise, when you realize that the comunities in F3 are a logicist nightmare, and last but not least, when you realize that almost no NPC in that game makes any sense. I think Gizmo described it once as a "post apocalyptic theme park" only there for the players amusement, well except for those that love to kill children of course, or any of the "important" NPCs. You can literaly blow up megaton walk to the citadel, blow everyones face away - those that can die, come back 3 days later, and pick up the main quest like nothing ever happened. Now that is quality role playing ... and on top of that you can become the saint of the wasteland by donating water to begars.

 

[Walpknut]

Crni you completely misunderstand the way the Legion is represented in New Vegas.

Their acts of extreme brutality are all done in the name of demoralizing the NCR forces, that's why they destroyed the town closest to the Mojave Outpost, attacked the NCR settlement of Searchlight with a dirt bomb, attack the Ranger Station closest to the Outpost, and occupied Nelson, cutting off Forlom Hope from a lot of roads while also strentghtening their position. There are no Legion towns in New Vegas because they first occupy the land by force and then impose their rule when the roads, opposition and dangers have been occupied and tamed, actually in the Legion endings after you win over Hoover Dam Caesar makes an example of only brutalizing NCR aligned settlements and either rules over the rest with an iron fist or offers them to join his ranks (and in the case of the Kings they refused and fought them, just to be decimated themselves). Nipton being a Legion town would make no sense because they are too far away from their controlled territory (a point they made specifically to deal a blow to the NCR by showing them that just because they are far away from their border doesn't mean they are safe at all. The NCR crucifying civillians would also make no sense whatsoever.

The problem with the way they are presented is that there is very little to their territory, only their military camp and a few camps instead of the more complex outposts they are said to have (hell we only interact with half of the for, the rest is a inaccesible zone full of tents that you can see on the hill) and also they have no companion aligned with them.

 

[Harken]

The minimum Vegas should have done is to show a Legion town, showing a prosperous and strong community, even if it was lead with an iron fist. I think for the game it would have been better if Nipton was actually a Legion town that got sacked by the NCR and their soldiers, sick and frustrated from the long battle they crucified the civilian population to mock the Legion and the NCR is turning a blind eye on "some" of those atrocities, because hey? Its war no?

I can't remember when, but I'm pretty sure Sawyer brought this up on his Formspring at some point. If I recall correctly, he claimed that they did originally have plans to implement some Legion territory into the game in order to explore their faction a bit better, but they didn't have nearly enough time. I probably suspect this is what had to do with that weird, boxy trench in the Fort lead to. The purpose of Nipton was entirely to characterize the Legion as the ruthless, imperialistic Knight Templars that they are, but the NCR doing anything like that would go against the lazy and corrupt pseudo-republic that was established for them. It seems that Obsidian messed up when they broke the show-don't-tell rule, which is what I think is what is bothering you. In all honesty, the Legion seemed pretty realistic for a bunch of tribals lead by an old man going senile. The robo-Nazi Enclave or the AM-esque Master seemed far more cartoony and OTT to me, anyways.

 

[No Man]

Problem is they could somewhat make up for it in some backstory, like a specific event that would show the Legion as the good guys for bringing order or somehing. If we don't get it onscreen then at least tell us. Instead we get a crappy, general 'they brought order in Arizona or whatever'. On the other hand the offscreen event we are told about in great detail is destruction of New Caanan, which is probably one of the most atrocious, assholish things we are ever told about the Legion.

 

[Walpknut]

Actually both Cass and Raul talk about how the Legion brings order to the roads. Cass states that caravans that run through Legion territory are untouchable there, while Raul says that he doesn't hate them as everyone else as he was in Arizona before and after the Legion took over. More character with similar experiences would have been nice. Maybe a small Caravan group that runs on the southern lands and has a reputation of not caring who they serve but when you talk to them you realize that they are regular Folks who just feel safer running Legion territory. Just for starters. Because the thing is not showing them as "good guys" but show them as effective.

Also the Legion didn't destroy New Canaan, that was the White Legs, who were overcompensating a lot to be accepted in the Legion.

 

[No Man]

What Cass and Raul say is that they made the place peaceful. It's good and much of a plus for the Legion, but the problem is that it has no human face. They tell you Legion is ugly, but definitely not 100% evil and at the same time show you the Legion doing extreme atrocities, making alliances (temporary, but still) with raiders, mafia and potentially cannibals. I know why the Legion is doing this, I know there is some higher purpose behind it, but the game does a very good job in making the player hate them. To get to whatever good side the Legion has you'd have to dig through a mass of slavery, torture, rape and fanaticism, the latter being much more exposed to us. Maybe if we could hear about a specific situation the Legion helped with (one particular, with a specific person behind it), it'd be easier. I know it's a problem that was not adressed, because of deadlines (fuck you, Bethesda), but it is a problem nontheless.

Maybe it's just me, but I like to feel a tiny bit of regret and self-loathing whenever I make a decision, so that I can go back later and change it and I don't really feel that when going against the Legion.

Also, according to The Vault, destruction of New Caanan was Caesar's test. The Legion didn't destroy the place, but I don't really see how having it destroyed is any better morally.

 

[Walpknut]

Yeah, in the end the Legion really needed more material in game for the whole picture to be seen. We are told what their propouse and goals are, why they are so focused on Vegas and all of that, but we only have 3 camps aligned with them to visit so we don't get too much exposure to the non psycho militar memebers of the Legion outside of Caesar's Tent.

 

[tnu]

While I want to say that I do love and genuinely enjoy Fallout 3. Obsidian did teh best with what they had to work with. Keep in mind that they had maybe a year at the most and they STILL managed to handle the writing of plot and characters so much better. I can forgive an underdeveloped Legion because, unlike Bethesda's underdeveloped wasteland, they actually have some justification.

 

[BigBoss]

The fact that it has working electricity and power probably from the engines running the town, and a water source I'm guessing.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Back on topic then. Did James have to kill himself? Yes. Why? He's the guy who thinks the best way to solve a water contamination is by building one giant logistical nightmare of a purifier. When it didn't work, he didn't think that maybe a smaller scale solution would be a better idea. No, not James! He's going to pull a GECK into it.

James' solution is indeed amazing. Instead of going from settlement to settlement and build small individual purifiers (the bucket of rust in Megaton fits in a shack and manages to provide water for all the denizens) his great idea is to connect the one pre-war, experimental, unstable, super-advanced matter ricombinator that nobody knows how it works and have it running 24 hours a day forever. There's no way it will ever break, no sirree!

Obviously FO3 writing being what it is, the purifier is still working after 20 years.

 

[naossano]

This won't matter as Harold/Bob will create a massive ammount of three that will invade the Capital Wasteland and kick everyone.

 

[Atomic Postman]

He killed himself because the script told him to.

Wait, what's that over there? Blowing in the wind?

Is that the script!?

 

[coldroll]

Well it's Fallout 3 nothing makes any logical sense. How are all the power stations still working 200 years later? magic!!!! (poorly written script)