Do you think one's own real estate is necessary?

[Crni Vuk]

How does this make marriage a scam?

Just because people waste excessive amounts of money on getting married doesn't make marriage a scam, it makes the aforementioned people morons.

Besides, lots of those excesses aren't even a thing outside the anglosphere. I haven't seen anyone rent a suit all my life, the best man didn't tell any embarrassing stories on any wedding I attended, and the wedding cakes were just normal cakes.

Sorry if I'm somewhat defensive of the institution, but I get pissed off by the whole "marriage-is-an-outdated-institution-embrace-free-love" bullshit hippie agenda which seems to be behind such stuff.

I don't think you're supposed to take this super serious and literal. It's satire. Of course it is exagerated. That's kinda why it's funny. At least for some of us.
What they are mocking here is more the modern idea about marriage, which has very little to do with the actuall marriage from a historical point of view. And this feeling many people have, that you HAVE to spend all this money, or it's not a real marriage. And all the other shenanigans that people get taught about marriage since their childhood, either from their parents or society. I hope you understand that I am generalizing here. But there is a lot of stuff people take for granted, even though it was a pure invention by the industry. Like the wedding ring or the modern day Santa Claus.

 

[zegh8578]

I dunno much specifically about housing in other countries, but in my little town I notice the trend very well
We allready have a culture of kicking the kids out as soon as they're grown, and part of that culture is - the socialist-esque government, which offers: Student loans that are transformed into free money if studies are successfully passed, this means any youth who begins with university (which is practically free) will usually - automatically - move out and into a student flat that they'll pay with their loan/stipendium.
Once they're in need of an apt of their own, there are thousands of rooms for rent in re-built basements and whatnot, as a spring-board for a more established life

Now, our cities are small. In the 70s and 80s they built the very first groups of 4-story apartment blocks, of the wide "soviet style" type, as well as 12 story "highrises", but only a few, in only a few spots here and there. Everything else is houses, except city centre (which itself is quite small)
That wave of building then sortof just settled, and the city just kind of sat on its back untill the 90s, when they begun - and has ever since - been focusing entirely on luxury apartments. And in a city this small, with a culture of looking for a place to live right at the start of adulthood, it becomes very evident when all the new available apartments are priced at the max, everything else is occupied, or tiny little rooms for rent. For now, many just go with the flow/pressure, and take huge loans, and move right into luxury apartments. If my city was a sim city-game, I would re-paint a farm area with low income residential. At least one, they have to think rationally, 20 years now of non stop luxury apartment building

 

[pennyliu123]

I dunno much specifically about housing in other countries, but in my little town I notice the trend very well
We allready have a culture of kicking the kids out as soon as they're grown, and part of that culture is - the socialist-esque government, which offers: Student loans that are transformed into free money if studies are successfully passed, this means any youth who begins with university (which is practically free) will usually - automatically - move out and into a student flat that they'll pay with their loan/stipendium.
Once they're in need of an apt of their own, there are thousands of rooms for rent in re-built basements and whatnot, as a spring-board for a more established life

Now, our cities are small. In the 70s and 80s they built the very first groups of 4-story apartment blocks, of the wide "soviet style" type, as well as 12 story "highrises", but only a few, in only a few spots here and there. Everything else is houses, except city centre (which itself is quite small)
That wave of building then sortof just settled, and the city just kind of sat on its back untill the 90s, when they begun - and has ever since - been focusing entirely on luxury apartments. And in a city this small, with a culture of looking for a place to live right at the start of adulthood, it becomes very evident when all the new available apartments are priced at the max, everything else is occupied, or tiny little rooms for rent. For now, many just go with the flow/pressure, and take huge loans, and move right into luxury apartments. If my city was a sim city-game, I would re-paint a farm area with low income residential. At least one, they have to think rationally, 20 years now of non stop luxury apartment building

The rent in my city is also increasing. Many young people will share the rent and live together, 4 peoples live in one apartment, for example. And if some of them are not single, it is possible that 6-8 people live together. but if they want to have babies, that will be very inconvenient. I really don't see how they can resolve this problem. if as you say, the rent in your city are very high now, will you guys share the rent and live with other people, too?

 

[SuAside]

Necessary? No, certainly not.

But a good house or appartment ends up paying for itself and it represents real value if you ever have to sell it. (That is, unless you buy during a housing bubble )

With a rental home, you pay each month and all you get is temporary housing. While if you own a house & maintain it, even if you have a mortgage on it, you are paying towards something which is yours or will be yours.
Quite often, rental homes are not cheaper than the mortgage you'd pay off on a house.

 

[Jogre]

Sorry but youtube is blocked in China, can you post the link so that I can try to view it via some special browser?

Sometimes I forget how much censorship there actually is in China. I heard that FO2 got banned temporarily for making a reference to a former Chinese governor.

Is Tor Browser legal over there?, Because if it is legal I would 100% recommend that, it's untraceable and can get past most filters.

 

[zegh8578]

if as you say, the rent in your city are very high now, will you guys share the rent and live with other people, too?

Most rooms-for-rent are together with other people, rooms are private, but kitchens and other common areas are shared.

 

[pennyliu123]

Sometimes I forget how much censorship there actually is in China. I heard that FO2 got banned temporarily for making a reference to a former Chinese governor.

Is Tor Browser legal over there?, Because if it is legal I would 100% recommend that, it's untraceable and can get past most filters.

I am not sure FO2 has ever been banned or not, I purchased it in 2000. And as you may know, we can always find a free copy from Internet so the government can not really ban it even it can't be sold

Yes, tor has been blocked for a few years. I usually use a VPN provided by my friend in HK, thanks for your suggestion, any way.

 

[pennyliu123]

Most rooms-for-rent are together with other people, rooms are private, but kitchens and other common areas are shared.

Oh, then I guess you guys will have the same "being single sucks" moment, especially when in the mid-night you hear the bed in another room shaking violently, or some other noise?

 

[Lanfear]

Polite people don't bang quite so loudly in share houses, but a lot of people aren't very polite. I don't miss living in a share house.

I hate the Great Firewall. It's such a stupid cultural barrier.

 

[pennyliu123]

Polite people don't bang quite so loudly in share houses, but a lot of people aren't very polite. I don't miss living in a share house.

I hate the Great Firewall. It's such a stupid cultural barrier.

Yes, GFW is very stupid. There is no rating system in China, and the government wants to treat every citizen as 8 years old kids. The guy who created GFW is hated by most Chinese and will be thrown shoes or bad eggs if he appears publicly.

 

[Lanfear]

The guy who created GFW is hated by most Chinese and will be thrown shoes or bad eggs if he appears publicly.

At least he doesn't have to worry about videos of him being egged appearing on YouTube, I guess.

 

[kraag]

The notion of religion [which is where 'marriage' comes from*] is lost on me, I only see it as another form of control over humans by those in positions of 'given' power. The same goes for land/property ownership, no one person or people can claim ownership of anything, including land on this planet, nothing gives them that right other than the religious 'gods' they worship. This is just my opinion and in no way do I suggest this to be anyone elses reality

*You really don't need to be married in an expensive religious ceremony to be able to spend the rest of your life with someone you love, or to procreate and have offspring - to suggest that doing any of these will end with you and your loved ones "burning in hell-fire for eternity" is absurd beyond belief [for me anyway].

 

[SuAside]

The notion of religion [which is where 'marriage' comes from*]

Is it? If so, please provide proof.

Marriage as a concept has existed far before our "modern" religions, so that's going to be fairly hard to prove.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

The notion of religion [which is where 'marriage' comes from*] is lost on me, I only see it as another form of control over humans by those in positions of 'given' power. The same goes for land/property ownership, no one person or people can claim ownership of anything, including land on this planet, nothing gives them that right other than the religious 'gods' they worship. This is just my opinion and in no way do I suggest this to be anyone elses reality

*You really don't need to be married in an expensive religious ceremony to be able to spend the rest of your life with someone you love, or to procreate and have offspring - to suggest that doing any of these will end with you and your loved ones "burning in hell-fire for eternity" is absurd beyond belief [for me anyway].

So someone who spent all his time attempting to make a certain piece of wilderness farmable has the same right to it as some guy who spent the same time home jacking off?

The "burning in hell for eternity" is a superstition, we all know that, but aren't most superstitions there for a reason? I'm sure you know of the superstition of women jinxing ships, you can surely see the logic behind that one. Some people have long, strong monogamous relationship while not married, but most people don't, and parents staying together is crucial for a healthy childhood, and allows for more reproduction.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Yeah, except that some of those cultures which don't follow this modern, in particularly western idea, about marriage are miraculously still around.

You should not make the mistake to confuse modern marriage with the past though. I mean like 2000, 3000 or even 5000 years ago. In those archaic societies marriage might had even a very important role. But do you know how many biblical stories are out there where someone had 2 or 3 wives and concubines? And let us not even get started about all those other religions, myths and stories.

Marriage in the past was also often used as tool for power and showing wealth. It has no conection with survival or reproduction today, if it ever had. As like humans ever need some kind of relationship like marriage to get children and sex. Marriage is a totally arbitratry construction.
My guess? It has more to do with the families of the spouse, with the forming of social structures when humans became far more dependand on agriculture and settlements. And particularly with more strict gender roles. The concept of gifts and making sure that the families are taken care of within those social structures had an important role here.

The "burning in hell for eternity" is a superstition, we all know that, but aren't most superstitions there for a reason? I'm sure you know of the superstition of women jinxing ships, you can surely see the logic behind that one.

Yeah, like the flat earth. Or satanic possession which we know today as epilepsy.
I think some (well actually ALL) superstitions definetly deserve to die.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Yeah, except that some of those cultures which don't follow this modern, in particularly western idea, about marriage are miraculously still around.

And I envy their mud huts and spears endlessly.

You should not make the mistake to confuse modern marriage with the past though. I mean like 2000, 3000 or even 5000 years ago. In those archaic societies marriage might had even a very important role. But do you know how many biblical stories are out there where someone had 2 or 3 wives and concubines? And let us not even get started about all those other religions, myths and stories.
Marriage in the past was also often used as tool for power and showing wealth. It has no conection with survival or reproduction today, if it ever had. As like humans ever need some kind of relationship like marriage to get children and sex. Marriage is a totally arbitratry construction.
My guess? It has more to do with the families of the spouse, with the forming of social structures when humans became far more dependand on agriculture and settlements. And particularly with more strict gender roles. The concept of gifts and making sure that the families are taken care of within those social structures had an important role here.

Many animials have a chosen mate for life. Usually the more intelligent species.

Passing on your genes doesn't stop at something that shares them popping out of a vagina. If that something doesn't survive and prosper to the point of being able to reproduce itself, you failed. The best way to guarantee this is to either pop out as many children as you can with as many different mates if you live in a resource-abundant habitat (which by default has many more predators), or to have fewer children with a focus on picking the very finest mate possible and raising the children to be as capable as they possibly can be if you live in a low-resource environment (where hunger is more likely to kill you than a predator).

The influence of marriage on forming social structures is also impressive, and it is probably in the era of agriculture and settlements that marriage got its name, but you couldn't just force people into following such reproductive patterns if they weren't already practicing them in the past.

Yeah, like the flat earth. Or satanic possession which we know today as epilepsy.
I think some (well actually ALL) superstitions definetly deserve to die.

You seriously can't figure out why the superstition that women bring bad luck to ships was practical?
Your crusading against superstitions will just leave room for the worse superstitions since they are usually more resilient. Fact is that most people aren't very smart, and will always succumb to superstitions.

 

[Spacemunkey]

The notion of religion [which is where 'marriage' comes from*] is lost on me, I only see it as another form of control over humans by those in positions of 'given' power.

In the United States at least, marriage itself is not part of religion in anything other than ceremony. Marriage is a contract that affords your significant other rights and privileges that are not given to say a girlfriend, which is why there is such a huge issue with gay marriage. Some states will also recognize civil unions or common law marriage, but at the end of the day marriage ceremonies with religious aspects are neither necessary or required. Even a notary public can perform a marriage ceremony and it be legal.

 

[Crni Vuk]

And I envy their mud huts and spears endlessly.

And they envy all the unbelievable blessings of our modern civilisation with it's wallstreet-gamblers and Mc Donalds-type of food endlessly.

See. I can play this game of ridiculous hyperbole too!

Don't assume people can't be happy just because they don't have sinks in their home and a TV screen in every room.

Many animials have a chosen mate for life. Usually the more intelligent species.

You mean like most primates who have actually changing partners. Actually animals living together happily for the rest of their live till they die is the exception, and those that exchange wedding rings have actually died out.

I am not even going into the concept of "love" here, but for most animals their relation does not extend outside the mating season. And it has a reason why this happens. Diversity with the geene pool. The more offspring the female has in her live with different partners, the less danger to end up with bad genes. Imagine if you're a Chimp and you bond with a partner that simply can't get children. Whoopeee! Well, your mistake! You chose for live mate!
Obviously, many animals have developed different strategies to survive in nature and all for different reasons. There are some who bond for ever. But like I said, that's rather rare in nature. And I really would not mix in "intelligence" here. What counts in the end, is if a species survives. Many see humans as the most intelligent species on this planet. But, will that really help us in survival? That still remains to be seen, and is actually a very controversial debated amongs biologists. Imagine if we destroy our selvs tomorrow with a third world war. And a couple of million years later, the planet doesn't even remember humanity anymore and the rats and cockroaches are still crawling around doing their thing. Just like if humans never existed.

Would you say this precious ingenuity and intelligence of ours has really worked to our benefit in the end? What counts for nature isn't if one species is more intelligent, but how well they are adapted to their environment and sudden changes. Intelligence can help, a lot. But doesn't have to. We don't even know if there is a real evolution for intelligence. Certain types of bacteria and viruses have survived for literaly 100 millions of years. And there are other animals which are still around as well. And it is very likely that those creatures might survive even us.

The influence of marriage on forming social structures is also impressive, and it is probably in the era of agriculture and settlements that marriage got its name, but you couldn't just force people into following such reproductive patterns if they weren't already practicing them in the past.

Yes, you can. See marriage today. The marriage we celebrate today has zero in common with the marriage that was practised 5000 years ago. Otherwise I would have to ask you, prove that the marriage we have today, is the exact same. Or that it has even the same purpose.
But you will have a very hard time, considering the incredible high numbers of different cultures trough human history.

A lot that has to do with marriage today comes from tradition, and not necessity. If there ever was one.

The influence of marriage on forming social structures is also impressive,
Social structures formed marriage. And not marriage social structures. Or do you want to tell me animals have kingdoms, sophisticated forms of agriculture, and social structures as we saw them in ancient egypt and greece?
Don't be ridiculous. Why do you try to explain marriage with animals, biology and evolution here? If you believe in marriage, ok! That's your thing. But there is no biological basis for any of it. Infact, using biology and nature to explain marriage in my opinion just weakens your argument, because there is a lot more evidence in nature that those species, which don't bond for all of eternity, survive better, have more offspring and are generally the norm.

You seriously can't figure out why the superstition that women bring bad luck to ships was practical?

The fact that many females somehow sailed trough the world to populate new areas, with their "husbands" kinda tells me that his superstition was not always taken very serious. So no, please englighten me. What was the logic behind this superstition.

I guess the superstition about burning witches was also based on logic and practical I guess. Well, not so much for the females though ...

But more important, please answer the question why this is even relevant today and with marriage.

 

[Walpknut]

A House is a better unvestment than a car.

 

[kraag]

I prove my ignorance of facts about marriage and religion - I stand corrected, I honestly thought marriage was purely religion based - it does not appear to be so. I assumed something and made an ass of myself.