Do you think the world eventually recovered from the Great War?

[Dr Fallout]

Because of the Sino-Soviet split in the 1960s. It's simple. China hates the Soviet Union more than they hate the United States. If you have China 'eating high on the hog' so to speak, it would be the Soviets that would go first on the plate.

Remember that the Chinese invaded and annexed Mongolia (Gobi Campaign) and guess who the People's Republic of Mongolia was a protectorate of? Right, the Soviet Union. It would be like another country attacking the Virgin Islands, something would happen.

Finally, Russians have one thing the Chinese need for their war effort. Oil. It's a mad scramble for oil, and everyone wants it. Have to keep the tanks going against American power armor, so oil is absolutely essential for their empire to succeed. For similar reasons to the American annexation of Canada, an invasion in Kazahkstan and the Russian far east would be logical and not actually that hard to do. You can't have this country with a warriorlike mentality of conquest take all of southeast Asia then just leave their big opponent alone. In their strange culture, it would be viewed as an act of cowardice.

What's in between China and Alaska? Oh yeah, Russia. I would totally wage a war without nearby bases, makes perfect sense.

Nice job pulling the thread back into total war. I didn't want to have to post this, and I made it clear that I was ending it there on the last post. I will continue to post about the Sino-Soviet War in every thread I can use it in because it can be confirmed by a simple analysis of canon. You just keep on with that sarcasam, and I think I'll keep on with my posting. Thanks for always keeping it thought provoking.

Different timeline doesn't necessarily mean that would happen. Your basing your entire proof on a historical event in a fictional setting in which history veered of course. Really?

Where is your source in that regard? Again, you use historic assumptions on a fictional setting where history doesn't go as known. There's a massive possibility they became independent or even democratic (or possibly insanely totalitarian) and divorce themselves from the Soviet Union.

Agreed, though China can still TRADE. The only reason there was war for American oil and middle Eastern oil was the unwillingness to peacefully trade, due to a mixture of various stability problems and heavy rivalry. The US and China are shown to be rivals even before the war, both competing in technology. America would hardly give it's oil to China, would you? Russia doesn't have this problem, as it picks off Europe, meaning that it has no real interests in Asia. Russia could then peacefully trade off it's remaining oil reserves for other resources such as food or who knows what. The annexation of Canada was a joke. It was happening with American troops protecting pipelines way earlier, also the annexation was not for oil, but to keep protecting Alaskan oil. You're thinking of WW2 Japan now...

You realize invasions usually secure land for forward bases in conquered territory, to lay claim to land?

Yeah... Well you seem good at arguing it. Sure, please do that. I like arguing with you about it. I learn so much on the Great War. Also, not really. There is NO evidence in the lore whatsoever pointing to a Sino-Soviet war. I was being sarcastic? Welcome I guess.

 

[The-Artist-64]

Different timeline doesn't necessarily mean that would happen. Your basing your entire proof on a historical event in a fictional setting in which history veered of course. Really?

Where is your source in that regard? Again, you use historic assumptions on a fictional setting where history doesn't go as known. There's a massive possibility they became independent or even democratic (or possibly insanely totalitarian) and divorce themselves from the Soviet Union.

Agreed, though China can still TRADE. The only reason there was war for American oil and middle Eastern oil was the unwillingness to peacefully trade, due to a mixture of various stability problems and heavy rivalry. The US and China are shown to be rivals even before the war, both competing in technology. America would hardly give it's oil to China, would you? Russia doesn't have this problem, as it picks off Europe, meaning that it has no real interests in Asia. Russia could then peacefully trade off it's remaining oil reserves for other resources such as food or who knows what. The annexation of Canada was a joke. It was happening with American troops protecting pipelines way earlier, also the annexation was not for oil, but to keep protecting Alaskan oil. You're thinking of WW2 Japan now...

You realize invasions usually secure land for forward bases in conquered territory, to lay claim to land?

Yeah... Well you seem good at arguing it. Sure, please do that. I like arguing with you about it. I learn so much on the Great War. Also, not really. There is NO evidence in the lore whatsoever pointing to a Sino-Soviet war. I was being sarcastic? Welcome I guess.

Their ideologies were drifting even when the communists first won the Chinese Civil War in 1949. The Sino-Soviet split predates the divergence. Even if you disagree, then I'd say that the baseline ideas that started the split wouldn't change. No matter what happened, Maoists and post-Stalin Soviets would still drift apart because they interpret the idiotic dream of the ideology in a different way.

To assume any of that on Mongolia would be just as speculative, if not moreso. Mongolia is a weak nation and would never have had enough power to free themselves if the Soviets were still around. They only broke their chains after the Soviet monster had been slain, so to speak.

The middle east just blew itself up. That was no longer an option. The Russians love their big gas-guzzling tanks, so it's pretty safe to say that they were dry too. Even if they did have oil left, remember that the Maoists refused to associate with the 'imperialist fakers' as they called them.

Fallout is a world of exaggeration and polarization. The developers did all they could to make the geopolitical situation look just like it did in the 1940s. Isolationist America, wartorn Europe, and an insane Asian power invading every piece of land it sets its eyes upon. However, alternate history is still based on fact. Anything that would be impossible, such as the lack of a Sino-Soviet War, would be referred to by those who dwell in the world of alternate history as 'alien space bats'- essentially off-the-wall nonsense.

Regardless of what you choose to do, I will continue to post about the Sino-Soviet War. Your love of my ideas is appreciated. I enjoy the conversation, and it really helps me to refine the timeline. Keep them coming!

 

[Dr Fallout]

Their ideologies were drifting even when the communists first won the Chinese Civil War in 1949. The Sino-Soviet split predates the divergence. Even if you disagree, then I'd say that the baseline ideas that started the split wouldn't change. No matter what happened, Maoists and post-Stalin Soviets would still drift apart because they interpret the idiotic dream of the ideology in a different way.

To assume any of that on Mongolia would be just as speculative, if not moreso. Mongolia is a weak nation and would never have had enough power to free themselves if the Soviets were still around. They only broke their chains after the Soviet monster had been slain, so to speak.

The middle east just blew itself up. That was no longer an option. The Russians love their big gas-guzzling tanks, so it's pretty safe to say that they were dry too. Even if they did have oil left, remember that the Maoists refused to associate with the 'imperialist fakers' as they called them.

Fallout is a world of exaggeration and polarization. The developers did all they could to make the geopolitical situation look just like it did in the 1940s. Isolationist America, wartorn Europe, and an insane Asian power invading every piece of land it sets its eyes upon. However, alternate history is still based on fact. Anything that would be impossible, such as the lack of a Sino-Soviet War, would be referred to by those who dwell in the world of alternate history as 'alien space bats'- essentially off-the-wall nonsense.

Regardless of what you choose to do, I will continue to post about the Sino-Soviet War. Your love of my ideas is appreciated. I enjoy the conversation, and it really helps me to refine the timeline. Keep them coming!

I know that, but it's an assumption it would escalate. Remember, the Soviets and Chinese calmed down after Mao's and Stalin's death, with good relations nowadays. Idiotic... how is the equality of man idiotic? Naive yes, idealistic yes but it's something we should all strive for, in one way or another. Probably, but I doubt there would be some massive falling out, remember we have a century of possible diplomacy.

Agreed, your're right their. So, now prove the Gobi Campaign.

Due to various nations invading it and civil wars. So of course. That depends if they haven't changed after some time, which is a pretty big guess. True, remember that they weren't always serious about that and only really believed in that when peaceful relations were poor, it's not like the government took that seriously.

Hmm, that's too Bethesdian. They really brought up that comparison with war posters and propaganda. I don't know about insane... you make far too many assumptions on China, without any information other then an invasion of America and conquest of nearby countries... I severely doubt that's enough evidence to support your view of Chinese as a radical communist state! Then again... Bethesda... Agreed, but here's the problem you act that a war is certain, which it's not. For one there's little evidence of any weakened or hateful relationships, any sign of war even though the fighting in the middle east is clearly mentioned and the fact that China may not be interested in war with the USSR.

That's fine, I welcome it. Thanks, agreed it's fun arguing about alternate history in a fictional setting. At least it's relatively civilized. I tried in some Bethesdian forums... god, don't try.

 

[Thatman]

I was just reading up on some of the prewar countries and saw that prior to China invading Alaska for the oil, America sabotaged their oil drilling attempts elsewhere. Sounds like there might not have been a need for nuclear war afterall, especially with America developing alternative energy sources.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I was just reading up on some of the prewar countries and saw that prior to China invading Alaska for the oil, America sabotaged their oil drilling attempts elsewhere. Sounds like there might not have been a need for nuclear war afterall, especially with America developing alternative energy sources.

America being dipshits like always. China being dipshits like always. Russia probably being dipshits like always.

 

[SidFwuff]

But why would the US start the great war? by the time of the nuclear ending of the sino-american war, The US was at the gates of beijing. (Galaxy News Network
Transcript of Broadcast October, 22, 2077
Thanks to the brave souls of the armed forces and our newly developed power armored combat suits, US forces have pushed back the Chinese invaders. Crippled by lack of fuel, US forces have pushed the invaders back to their home capital of Beijing. Sierra Depot GNN transcript) How I see it, China launched so that they would not have to accept defeat. Mind you, that the GNN Transcript very well could be propaganda, but we do at the very the least that the US was in china, to what degree though is unknown.

Because the Enclave (or their ancestors) *required* the Great War. That doesn't mean they necessarily started it, but my impression was that they were counting on China retaliating when they went after Beijing- and if China didn't launch their nuclear weapons, the U.S would have anyway. Making it moot.

It's explained (partially) by President Dick in Fallout 2, and expanded upon by the documents detailing the cut content from Fallout 2 and what was intended for Van Buren, from what I remember but:

The upper echelons of the U.S Government knew that the Sino-American war was futile. It didn't matter if the U.S won or not- the resources on earth were exhausted. Even if the U.S won, it was only a (short) matter of time before the U.S collapsed due to lack of resources. The answer was to colonize a new planet that was plentiful with resources.

To accomplish this, the U.S Government was going to launch (an) arc ship(s), carrying thousands of Americans, to travel to another solar system over the course of several generations. There were numerous hurdles to overcome to accomplish this- not only decades of research into various technologies, but also sociological problems: How do you seal thousands of people away into a (large) tin can for generations.

The Vault System was set up to help answer the latter: By using the threat of the Great War, they were able to seal away hundreds of thousands of willing Americans for several generations in "vaults". The government could then conduct various social experiments upon the "vault dwellers" and amass the data and research they needed to help improve the odds of the arc ship(s), while the government continued to tackle the technological hurdles.

Of course, this only works if the Great War actually happened . No Great War, no hundreds of thousands of Americans being sealed away underground, no sociological experiments. Furthermore, if there was no Great War- then you still have an entire nation to feed and support with those limited resources you need so badly to engineer and build an arc ship.

As we know from Fallout 2, the Government failed to overcome the technological hurdles of space travel and their descendants- the "Enclave" came up with a plan B once they discovered the FEV virus: Wipe out every living thing that wasn't Enclave... and then do their best to make a life on a planet that's been exhausted of resources.

Again, my impression, was that the U.S government/Enclave always intended on the Great War though- if "Plan B" didn't exist until the F.E.V. virus was discovered after the Great War, then in my mind that means there was never a Plan B originally. Everything hinged on a nuclear exchange between China and the U.S for the continued existence of the U.S government... they were planning on it.

-Perhaps China was completely crazy and realized that losing the Sino-American War meant the end of China- they'd be out of resources and they decided to take everyone down with them.

-Perhaps China was surrendering, and the U.S forces ignored them and laid siege to Beijing- with the idea that American forces would kill their heads of government, China fired their nukes.

-Perhaps China didn't want to end the world as everyone knew it and surrendered peacefully- only to see the U.S (for no apparent reason) launch their nukes at China anyway...at which point they retaliated.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter, because the U.S Government required a nuclear holocaust to usher hundreds of thousands of Americans into the Vaults and to preserve the last of the world's resources to attempt to develop an arc ship.

I will say this though: Regardless of who fired first... the U.S Government on the oil rig would tell their children (and their children's children) that "The Reds fired first!"

And... not only were all the Vaults filled before the bombs landed, but the U.S Government was safe and sound on their Oil Rig.

The fact that the U.S Government that would become the Enclave weren't caught off guard and managed to get to the Oil Rig safely and on time doesn't jive with what President Dick was told: That the Great War came before they expected it.

The U.S either expected (and were ready for) China to launch their nukes when they crashed Beijing... or the U.S fired first.

 

[peadar87]

Could have even been something as stupid as the US or China using a tactical battlefield nuke in the battle for Beijing, and things kind of snowballing from there.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Could have even been something as stupid as the US or China using a tactical battlefield nuke in the battle for Beijing, and things kind of snowballing from there.

Who knows? Both governments were fucked up to kingdom come.

 

[RangerBoo]

In Bethesda's Fallout, no. Because Bethesda wants and needs each installments setting to be set in a hopeless shithole(where no progress what so ever has been made in 200+ years) in where your character is the long awaited messiah since they think that is what makes a good story in a Fallout game.

 

[Dr Fallout]

In Bethesda's Fallout, no. Because Bethesda wants and needs each installments setting to be set in a hopeless shithole(where no progress what so ever has been made in 200+ years) in where your character is the long awaited messiah since they think that is what makes a good story in a Fallout game.

Because everyone wants to be Jesus right? But without all that bullshit where you have to actually act good.

 

[RangerBoo]

Because everyone wants to be Jesus right? But without all that bullshit where you have to actually act good.

Well that gets in the way of being Billy Badass. My character must be awesome the moment the game starts! In all seriousness though this is one of the biggest things that annoy me about Bethesda. That and them going further down the timeline which makes their "stories" and settings not make a lick of sense due to no progress being made what so ever the further down the timeline they go.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Jesus Billy Badass.

That's what Bethesda wants to give us.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Haven't had time yet to read all of the responses in this topic but regarding resources, the Shi are working on alternative fuels based on plankton and plants I think, and if we go with the positive ending of Old World Blues the technology of Big MT will one day also be of benefit to all of humanity.
The Think Tank did invent the matter recombination technology which probably will be of great help to an almost resource depleted world.

I think there is the possibility for a second industrial age and perhaps even a space age in the distant future of the Fallout world if we go by Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas. It will still however take centuries before humanity will be that far and this new society would not be like the world was before the great war.

 

[mrchaos]

The Think Tank did invent the matter recombination technology which probably will be of great help to an almost resource depleted world.

The matter recombination technology was just a prototype, and was never closed to be mass produced before the great war (and i have no idea if it was capable of producing oil or uranium).

 

[Atomic Postman]

It will recover,eventually. It will be much, much different to the world before the war however.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

The matter recombination technology was just a prototype, and was never closed to be mass produced before the great war (and i have no idea if it was capable of producing oil or uranium).

It seemed to work pretty well in the Sierra Madre, capable of making food, components, munition. A big version of the vending machines could probably make replicas of itself.

Oil could possibly be recreated in some form through genetic modified algae (there is some research done on this today), and there is sufficient uranium at the moment for a space program to be undertaken and discover uranium deposits on other planets and the asteroids. (already some indications by astronomers that there is uranium on the Moon and Mars)

 

[mrchaos]

It seemed to work pretty well in the Sierra Madre, capable of making food, components, munition. A big version of the vending machines could probably make replicas of itself.

Oil could possibly be recreated in some form through genetic modified algae (there is some research done on this today), and there is sufficient uranium at the moment for a space program to be undertaken and discover uranium deposits on other planets and the asteroids. (already some indications by astronomers that there is uranium on the Moon and Mars)

The ones in the Sierra Madre are the only ones know to exist (big empty doesn´t have single one in any of its facility´s), and there´s no way to know if the replicators could feed hundreds of millions or possibly billions (the only source of food they could make was junk food).

Mining uranium in other planets could be possible but very expensive.

 

[peadar87]

Asteroids are actually a pretty decent source of heavy elements like uranium. The earth is differentiated, meaning it was essentially liquid when it formed due to the energy of all that mass smashing together. This allowed most of the heavy elements to sink to its core.

Asteroids are far smaller, and have much less gravity, so they didn't melt much when forming, and therefore generally have much higher concentrations of heavy elements near the surface than the earth.

But if we're talking actual science here, the Sierra Madre vending machines are impossible. And I don't think they fit in at all with the setting, so I headcanon them away as just some sort of pneumatic tube distribution system

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

The ones in the Sierra Madre are the only ones know to exist (big empty doesn´t have single one in any of its facility´s), and there´s no way to know if the replicators could feed hundreds of millions or possibly billions (the only source of food they could make was junk food).

Mining uranium in other planets could be possible but very expensive.

I consider the food issue to be more of a technical issue rather than a limitation. It would probably require some recoding of the sequences.
There may not be vending machines at Big MT but the knowledge on how to build them is still stored in their electronic archives, so it would not be impossible to acquire a full set of schematics.
Big MT also seems to have manufacturing technology so a number of vending machines could be build which on their turn would allow for the construction of a factory that makes more of them.

Yes, mining off world would be difficult but it would be the only option with what resources are left. Sort of the chicken and the egg issue, recovering humanity requires new energy sources so resources need to be spend on reaching the planets and the asteroids and set up mining and Earth return operations.
As a result issues like luxury such as cars and other advanced manufactured items for the masses will have to wait until this issue is resolved first.

Most likely Mr House's plans of sending rockets crewed by robots would be the best approach as sending dozens of manned rockets might prove more expensive. (or perhaps only a few human crews to supervise the robots)

One more thing, with these scenarios I don't go with the idea that there are already millions or even billions of people again.
Rather all these projects and operations would have to be undertaken to allow humanity to grow into the millions again as otherwise the same problem as before the war would occur again; to many people and to limited resources.

 

[mrchaos]

I consider the food issue to be more of a technical issue rather than a limitation. It would probably require some recoding of the sequences.
There may not be vending machines at Big MT but the knowledge on how to build them is still stored in their electronic archives, so it would not be impossible to acquire a full set of schematics.
Big MT also seems to have manufacturing technology so a number of vending machines could be build which on their turn would allow for the construction of a factory that makes more of them.

A few problems with that: building the replicators would required a very specific set of knowledge and the only ones with acess to the schematics (assuming that there are schematics because, think tanks) might not even know to gain acess to it, hell, they might even forgot that they created it.