Does anyone else realize how stupid Arthur Maxson being sent East Coast is?

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by Lidku, May 10, 2020.

  1. Lidku

    Lidku Wasteland Sniper

    93
    Sep 4, 2019
    Like why would the main Brotherhood (at the time before Lyons expedition) send the descendant of the most lauded founder of the organization dating back all the way to the aftermath of the Great War with some contingent all the way on the other side of the country? What basis would this have?

    Its especially damning since there are no other Maxsons (because apparently the Maxson dynasty never bothered to have multiple children despite being part of one of the only societies in the Wasteland with the readible privilege to do so, even being at the top of the hierarchy of said society nonetheless) in the first place, the main council of the BoS would never greenlight such an action. Its almost as if Bethesda only strung this Maxson because they probably already had their horrific Fallout 4 plot already on the drawing board and needed an excuse for spawning in this particular Maxson. (I only say this because they already had their stupid Blade-Runner rip planned in lieu of the "Replicated Man" quest in rivet city).
     
  2. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 7, 2015
    I suppose you could justify it by saying that conniving elders wanted to get rid of the last of the Maxsons so that they could wield more power, but of course Bethesda just didn't put that much thought into it.
     
  3. Norzan

    Norzan Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 7, 2017
    Because Bethesda wanted to make their games in the East Coast, but that meant having to come up with new things because the first two games as far as i'm aware didn't told much about the East Coast, if anything at all. So that meant contrived writing to get a lot of things that were in the West Coast to the East Coast, regardless if it made sense or not.
     
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  4. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    The entire trans-continental voyage was stupid. One of the things I like about Fallout as a setting is that it dials back the scale of the world. California and Utah might as well be other countries. Having groups and individuals travel freely across the entire continental United States soils that somewhat, and makes groups like the Legion, NCR or the Master's Unity feel small-scale and silly by comparison.

    If they absolutely *had* to shove the BoS into 3, I think the 76 method of Maxson attempting to contact friends within the US Army after the bombs dropped is probably the least terrible way of going about it. What sort of state a east-coast grown BoS would be like by the year 2277 is another matter entirely, though.
     
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  5. Eshanas

    Eshanas Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    819
    Jul 6, 2016
    There's just little way to justify the BoS being on the East Coast at the present time. They were dying. They were small. They were fighting a losing war against the NCR. Maxson might had been sent out to somewhere, yes, but somewhere is like, Oregon, Montana, Utah.

    And it's like not we can justify, or shove in Tactics, either. Most people hate or dislike Tactcs and even then - what, the BoS sends their leader to be to a bunch of outcasts, and then they jump to the East Coast? That's not even stretching it anymore, it's just idiotic. But the whole of the BoS in 3, 4, 76, and even NV is. NV even has us acknowledging they're fucking done for but Mcnamara and Elijah still want to fight and for some reason haven't been shot in the back yet. And yes, I know about that Paladin/Knight usurper guy.

    The BoS on the East Coast makes little sense. If there's a MwBoS, why didn't he stay there or was taken hostage? If there isn't a big MwBoS, then plowing across the country seems even more impossible because no one paved the way. And then there's stuff like 'the battle of the Pitt' because yes the BOS is going INTO the raider's nest for whatever fucking reason, doing nothing of note, leaving a man behind, and kept on going.

    Ugh. It's w/e. The EcBoS should had just been the damn US Army still struggling after all this time or something.
     
  6. Lidku

    Lidku Wasteland Sniper

    93
    Sep 4, 2019
    Hmmm reading through your post and AlphaPromethean's post makes me find a few other gripes I have that were in my mind:

    Exactly! Since Bethesda in a way made Fallout Tactics basically cannon with them confirming East Coast Brotherhood was sent to contact them (but somehow failed supposedly), lets look at the precedent for long scale Wasteland travel for how the MwBoS got far: Airships. Sure in Fallout 4 Bethesda miraculously remembers this bit, but in Fallout 3 its utterly stupid how they got across from California ALL the way to DC via foot alone. In Tactics that BoS utilized LITERAL AIRSHIPS, but only ever made it to the center of the country. How the hell are heavily Powered Armored men and women going to hope to make it all the way on DC being that slow with no other transportation?

    Another gripe is how they even got the Pentagon as their fucking HQ of all things. I'll give Bethesda one lil' bone, the Enclave being active in DC makes total primary sense since they ARE the remnants of the US government. It would make sense for them to relocate from an in-universe standpoint to the basic heartland of America. But the fact that the BoS of all things secured the Pentagon first (renamed the Citadel) especially with Liberty Prime in the facility is so fucking dumb.

    The end of Fallout 2 takes place in the year of 2242, AMPLE time for Enclave to secure the Pentagon of all things- the symbolic Intelligence and Miltec command centre of pre-war US. 13 years have passed, but in 2255 Owyn's chapter miraculously gains control of the Pentagon of all things- even access to, again as I've said before, Liberty Prime (i.e machine that the Enclave would undoubtedly want to secure at all costs. Why within the 13 years after the Rig blowing up and them retreating to the East Coast have they never tried to recover it, WTF). Out of the two factions making a debut in the Capital Wasteland, the Enclave make the most sense than the BoS. Accounting for time, their absolute presence should've been UNMATCHED and we know they have been active in the region for a time from the eyebots they have deployed... so again, its retarded that there was no Enclave presence in the Pentagon before the arrival of the BoS in the Capital Wasteland.

    Another thing about Bethesda is that they totally half-baked acknowledged Tactics altogether. Tactics took place in 2197 and ends in 2198. By the time Owyn even makes it to DC, 57 years have already passed. They probably wouldn't even know about the Maxsons in particular anymore since they've been so cut off (even Caesar confirms this from dialogue, but note that the Midwest Chapter readily recruits Wastelanders and Tribals, so the society at large would know the main facets of the Brotherhood, but some inklings wouldn't know every detail- how many non-popular presidents can you name?), but I'd assume the Midwest Brotherhood would be a VERY strong faction in the Mid-West with a large presence since they recruit and have very superior technology which they maintain. How the hell is it possible for Lyons to not find them, wut?

    In all honestly, what was even the whole point of the Lyon dynasty arc? Because in the end Bethesda just killed it off in place for Arthur who's basically the West Coast mentality shoved into the East Coast. They aren't confident in their style of the BoS at all, so maybe thats why they went this lazy route with Maxson.. or maybe since Maxson EXPLICITLY was in 3 (and we know they planned the plot of 4 somewhat in advance) it was always their plan to have Maxson take the helm after Sarah and Owyn's asinine deaths. They- like I said before- needed an excuse to have the BoS fully migrate to the East Coast... they never wanted their own take of it. (not to say its even good or serviceable, just pointing out they don't have originality)

    Thats exactly what I'm saying! Bethesda is too scared to think of their own unique factions and they finally do, there GARBAGE! Minutemen was a trash faction, the Institute and Railroad combined were idotic Blade-Runner factions that were lukewarm in presentation and substance, then we AGAIN have the BoS making another appearance- this time acting exactly like the West Coast BoS because Bethesda wasn't confident in their own take and can't be original. Why the hell is Maxson even making an appearance in Boston? Why would he up and leave the major holding the BoS has- the fucking PENTAGON? Not only that but leave a region where CLEAN water is innumerable everywhere? WTF!? How can a company that has built up the lore of The Elder Scrolls series alone be this bad at writing? Did they fire some key story personnel or something?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
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  7. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    To be fair, I think ignoring Tactics' retarded Midwestern empire was actually a good decision. In general, I mean. Even Caesar's mention of the Brotherhood "out east" could literally just be a reference to Van Buren's remote chapter of the Brotherhood that was rooted in east Arizona. Ironically enough named the Maxson Bunker.

    The Brotherhood never struck me as a faction with massive amounts of disposabal manpower. Whilst deploying squadrons eastward is actually within their ideology, I could only see it as justifiable if they were aware of specific dangerous technology that would warrant that. As it stands both in the context of Tactics and Fallout 3, the Brotherhood just sent massive amounts of men that they got from somewhere on a completely blind expedition east to basically see what's up, or to chase down Super-Mutants that were running away. As the actions of a populous and well-driven empire/nation, that would make sense. For a reclusive order of techno-monks living in scattered bunkers across California, not particularly.
     
  8. Lidku

    Lidku Wasteland Sniper

    93
    Sep 4, 2019
    This is where there is was steep creative divide in how the MwBoS and EBoS were handled in their justification for migration. The Tactics branch explicitly left because they outright disagreed with the policies of the Council of the time stance on recruiting outsiders to bolster their numbers. They realized that the BoS was dying, but the other opposite party line of spectrum thought it was heresy to how the BoS ran to recruit and sully the pure line of the Brotherhood- thus starting the prologue of how Tactics begins with atleast some logic on why they were "soft-banished" on an errand hunt of the remnants of Master's Army. The Midwest Chapter and its formation as an established power ("Empire" as you put it) isn't retarded at all, its a representation of the BoS being actually smart to grow their influence and overall weight to being a staying one at that because now its recruiting. Its a direct dichotomous view on how the Western BoS fared because while they had the better tech, they failed in war from the sheer size of the NCR altogether. Remember- the Tactics Brotherhood was sent out as a punishment to get rid of them. Their nation building thereafter their Airships being crashed was all on them, they enacted the vision they wanted when it was thought they were going to be set for failure.

    It doesn't even make sense for Bethesda to retcon that tidbit since they did that same exact thing later in Fallout 4. They probably only ever did that because they wanted the East Coast BoS alone to be the height of the faction, only having the West Coast one be a footpad and Midwest being left dry despite all the developments the Midwest BoS made well at the end of Tactics and beyond.

    Owyns Chapter (Bethesda's own spin that they readily severed out later on) is given no adequate explanation or background on why they are sent to DC beside "recover" technology. Like you said before there is no adequate way they could justify such a trip with only foot travel- not even airships. It'll ONLY be if it was EXTREMELY dangerous technology rumored in the East Coast, but none of that was a focal point. They were just sent out at random, with Arthur Maxson (the most prestigious BoS member) to go with this ragtag group to boot. Even when they get to the East Coast, how likely is it for them to make a backpeddle back East? The reigning council at the time would never greenlight this procurement run because the time needed wouldn't warrant to do so. Its gobbily gook.
     
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  9. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    Perhaps I'm too harsh on the Midwest BoS, but I find the idea of the Brotherhood having a sector turning into an extremely powerful multi-state spanning empire/nation to be rather boring. To be honest, I'd even be okay with it if we got a game set in the Midwest in the 23rd century that showed how such an ideologically transient faction became balkanized, perhaps they've fragmented into pockets of well-armed mercenaries and millitias or something.

    It's just every time I look at a fan map and I see this massive consolidated blob over the midwest belonging to the BoS, it makes me sigh.
     
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  10. TomJ

    TomJ Still Mildly Glowing

    214
    Jul 12, 2015
    The Enclave at this point was run by an AI who's perception of time and reality were never established. For the sake of a thought experiment, what would your perception of time be if you had all of recorded history from the Library of Congress to fall back on? It would be unfathomable for us, but it would mean that Eden could have thought on a time scale that we wouldn't even think of. 13 years is a long time for a human, but an AI with a database of all of recorded history? 13 years is nothing. As to why the Enclave didn't secure the Pentagon, why would they? Liberty Prime wasn't operational and they are reclusive. Also, them remembering that it existed also assumes that Eden was either omniscient or that someone would randomly remember that it exists. Even if we assume it they remembered Liberty Prime exists, why would they waste resources and expose themselves for a piece of technology that wasn't operational and for all they knew was buried in rubble?

    As for why the Brotherhood was sent East, the NCR Brotherhood War was at least on the horizon by then or have turned into a hot war. Given how badly the Brotherhood fared during the war, it would make sense that they would attempt a hail Mary at sending a small detachment East to either secure technology that could turn the tide of war or at least give them a location from which to rebuild far outside the reach of the NCR should the war go south.

    The Midwestern Brotherhood will be a big question mark until we get confirmation about them at a later date. We have no idea how they would have evolved in the 50 years after the end of Tactics or what ending is even the canon one. For all we know, and this would be what I would write, is that Tactics ends with destroying the Calculator rather than merging with it. As time goes on, the territory the Brotherhood controls becomes more civilized, but with development came the pressure to change. And that change led to the Brotherhood devolving power to "provincial" entities that the main BoS Council has veto power over, but rarely exercises. What would result would be that the BoS directly controls Chicago, Cheyenne Mountain and some outposts scattered around their territory, but most of it is self governed and they don't worry about the day to day business anymore. If the Brotherhood was just the military, it would make sense that Lyons would think they were a small, rogue detachment if he only encountered them around Chicago. Assuming the rest of their territory was so thoroughly pacified that there was no reason for them to have an active presence anymore.

    I do agree that it was stupid to kill off Sarah. Whatever the reasons to send Maxson east were, it would have been better story telling to have Sarah become the new Elder in the East and have Arthur Maxson be the field commander in Boston for the sake of contrivance. I disagree about the Railroad, having an organizations that is based around espionage is a good idea even if Bethesda didn't do it justice. I find it shocking that espionage never really came up in the Fallout series outside of when the player is doing it. The Legion has the Frumentari, but outside of that, what is there? Seems like a missed opportunity for game play or making the sneak skill as useful as just shooting everything that moves.
     
  11. PsychoSniper

    PsychoSniper So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Jun 27, 2003
    Ok let me start by saying something nice: Fallouts third spinoff (F3) was the best Bethesda Fallout game to date.......

    Anyway, my thoughts on some of the above comments and ideas in no order whatsoever:

    Railroad was actually a good faction in need of a great evil adversary, which it lacked.

    Institute could have been scary, instead was fumb and didnt fit the setting.
    Synths were dumb, even tho the institute kept devoloping tech further for the duration their using biomechs just doesnt fit the Fallout setting.
    The terminator style mechanichal synths, sure, but the institute would have been a far better adversary and endgame boss faction if they instead used their kidnapped people as slaves rather than copying them, and used their tech to mindwipe slaves and implement a synthetic personaloty onto them.

    That would also make the railroad able to shine.

    The minutemen were an even bigger fucking waste, a true wasteland militia.

    As for the F3/F4/Tactics BoS..... (and yes I really have issues with tactics, but since bethesds its looked way better)

    Ok, it could work, sorta, if we assume the westcoast BoS was once far larger, and gave a mission in lieu of exile to a large faction that wanted to be more proactive and use its tech, and a few changes to the plot are implemented.

    They end up taking over chicago.
    Lets assume they have their own non BoS tribal militias in the region as well and the BoS functions as simply the strongest tribe and fights to the death (of the enemy) to help its allies in the chicago area, this frees them up to do BoS stuff, cue the FoT campaign.

    Now they still dont have numbers, but they have vetter numbers than any other BoS faction, but they're also in the midwest and have way more ground to cover.
    As the FoT campaign goes on, they ally with some towns, meaning they leave a radio and sometimes a small contingent behind to help train local militia, but due to vehicles they can rush reinforcements there within a day or so.

    After the conclusion they pull back to their 'core' territory, and establish garrisons so they can have a good response time to the places they have to guard.

    They would largely be armed with regular guns, armored mostly in leather armor reinforced with metal strike plates, with more elite teams having metal armor or prewar combat armor, energy weapons would be restricted to their heavy strike teams, elite forces, and guarding chicago, but other than towns where they have a major presenceor chicago propper they wouldnt stand out.

    Years later when the Betheada BoS heads east, they do their own thing, and manage to at most skim the southern edges of the midwest brotherhood, not really interacting with the locals, who just assume they're high ranking assholes from chicago off on a mission.

    But the losses they take in DC should have crippled them, doubly so after the Outcasts split off, and by the time of F4 they should have been unable to man the prydwin without mustering almost the entire chapter.

    Basically, F4 should have been a complete chapter migration caused by a need for more resources and the DC locals rising hatred of their behavior.

    F4s brotherhood should have had options to help reform them, even to the point of allying with the minutemen, or encourage their descent into raiders to continue.

    The east coast BoS could have ended up growing thru ties with the locals sucu as the midwest BoS, but the post F3 actions mentioned in F4 as well as their F4 behavior just means that BoS chapter is going to fail, hard.
     
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  12. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    With the New Vegas write-up, it makes perfect sense. They saw NCR coming and suspected the Brotherhood of Steel on the West Coast would be annihilated.

    Which it was.

    The last "canonical" take on the BOS by people involved in the "real" Fallout says that the Brotherhood is all but destroyed and on its way out. Sending the BoS Eastward is the only way to protect the kid and their legacy.

    Mind you, it's equally possible that the enemies of the Maxson line wanted to see him die as the BOS is implied to be not remotely the huggable bunch of brothers they claim to be but a scheming nest of vipers like most feudal societies. Every time we meet them, they're all plotting against one another.

    The alternatives being that maybe...just maybe...the other descendants of the Maxsons are girls.

    People who married and took the names of their husbands.

    Anyway, inbreeding will also make a family tree into a bush and we know the BOS is all into that.
     
  13. PsychoSniper

    PsychoSniper So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Jun 27, 2003
    'eh, I liked the good FO1 BOS ending combined with their having a base in shady sands in FO2 approach implying they joined the NCR and became the techpriest analouge until the NCR reached the point where the BOS melded into society...... as the elite shocktroops.

    Granted, FONV throws that out the window, but we could just as easily, gicen how corrupt the NCR is in FONV, get a plotline where you unfuck the NCR enough to merge the two against the remains of the legion.

    Overall tho I like the idea of the BoS becoming a disporia similar to the FO1 supermutants, its just that bethesda is incapable of the writing required for it.

    Be cool to see a BOS chapter that lacks power armor and relies more on skill and experience.
     
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  14. TomJ

    TomJ Still Mildly Glowing

    214
    Jul 12, 2015
    If the Brotherhood is going to exist outside of the West Coast, I would personally like it if a new chapter was started via Maxson talking to friends he had in the Army after the bombs went off or be expeditions sent out from the East Coast or Midwest. It wouldn't make sense for the Western Brotherhood to be able to send out scouting parties given that they have at least one base that is completely surrounded by the NCR, who they are hostile with. As much as I may not like the direction that was taken with the Midwestern and Eastern Brotherhoods, it make sense that they would be the center of the world for the Brotherhood and the Western part would effectively be a foot note at the point the games take place in. Making a BoS chapter via communication would mean that there would be differences between it an a main branch chapter of the BoS, and I am not sure if Todd Howard would allow a Brotherhood faction with notable differences to exist over a carbon copy existing somewhere in the world. The one gripe I can boil this down to is people not understanding that you need to tell a good story, keep it consistent enough to make sense, and give me multiple ways to solve things that are more than yes 3 different ways and no. Most people in the wider world aren't going to care that much about the game play itself so long as the game doesn't crash every 5 minutes (which is a big if for the first 6 months of any Bethesda game) and the story is engaging. Fallout 4 and 76 generally failed on both of those fronts and Fallout 3 was what I think should be considered a C- game.
     
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  15. PsychoSniper

    PsychoSniper So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Jun 27, 2003
    It'd be cool if we had an Enclave bunker that Maxon was able to contact an old buddy in, and it turned into it's regional BoS chapter.

    Keep in mind the Enclave was just the decedents of the US government/military that remained in contact with and loyal to the presidential bunker on the oil rig, where the BoS was descendants of the US Army garrison at the Mariposa research base and their family members, plus any girlfriends etc from the local area they picked up during the retreat (Be funny to write a fanfic about some of the evacuation splitting off to 'rescue' the workers at their favorite strip club.)
     
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  16. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Oddly that's how the Brotherhood in 76 came about.
     
  17. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    606
    Jan 11, 2008
    Did you guys literally never read anything?

    I dont mean fallout series in paerticular and sf in general, but the novel reading activity?

    Did you?

    Because its super obvious why maxson last heir get sent to east coast in the care of a super irregular Elder like Lyons.

    Losing ideological and power struggle within bos west coast org, is what. The winners are the side that want to collect prewar stuffs for iyself, not helping wasteland, and not allow outsiders to join.

    Thus the one want to help wasteland and permit wastelanders to join, aka like elder lyons, are sent to the other side of the world. An exile, in unsaid words.

    And the last heir of the founder, who is on the side of losing, get sent packing, or he would have been the flag others will gather around. Even if thats a prepubescent boy.

    (Of course its a stupid and short sighted strategy that sending away many of their good men and women, witness faithful-to-their-mission outcast faction and charismatic dogooders east coast. No wonder newly arised NCR can kick ass the ones left behind. But logically, storywise, this move is easy to understand)
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
  18. Alphons

    Alphons National Beholder

    Aug 9, 2017
    Have you played Fallout 3?

    Lyons didn't want to help people until he arrived in Capital Wasteland. They were exiled AFTER arriving in Capital Wasteland when they stopped caring about the mission and started caring about wastelanders.
     
  19. Iprovidelittlepianos

    Iprovidelittlepianos Mildly Dipped

    567
    May 12, 2020
    The “why” of it doesn’t bother me so much as the “how”. There’s no way a child is surviving a cross country trek across the post-apocalyptic America unless they have him his own suit of power armor or something. Between all the raiders, mutants and radioactive dust storms, not to mention more mundane issues like disease and dehydration/starvation, there’s just no reason to believe that civilians can make that journey. It’s like the Oregon trail times a thousand
     
  20. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    606
    Jan 11, 2008
    People dont suddenly wake up and want to help one day. its a long and gradual process.

    Remember lyons arrived at east coast a middle aged man with a daughter. Think of james and his lone wanderer. They are pretty similiar when their children come of age: james break out of v101 to restart purity and lyons start helping east coast.

    Lyons was not a stone cold bos who only want to help wastelanders only after arriving at east coast. Whats so special about the land and people of east coast? No no, its just lyons being far from the bureaucratic sob in west coast always interfere and saying no. So now he can do what he want to do.

    As for the trip, its interesting how betheda writers never spoke about how. Though logically they can do train track and fusion engine. A great method as long as you can manage power. Another method is ftbos airships

    If they can manage transport for meds, power batteries, delicate electronic parts, they can manage a tiny child or three.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021