DRM and You! Thread

[Buxbaum666]

Re: Bioshock 2's DRM Onion

The only game I can think of that hadn't been cracked on release (+- a few days) was one Splinter Cell incarnation. Don't remember which one. I think it used StarForce.

You know I've never had a single issue with a game caused by DRM. But boy the internet is full of horror stories.

Lucky you. Some time ago my burning software (Nero) stopped working. Un- and reinstalling didn't solve the problem. I actually had to reinstall Windows to get it working again. Turns out some game I installed had StarForce protection.


I kinda miss the old days, back when DRM used to be even more useless but at least cool.

 

[Arr0nax]

Re: Bioshock 2's DRM Onion

Advertising has also been proven to work by research. Simply because this research is difficult doesn't mean companies "just guess" advertising works.

Did you use the verb "prove" as in, say, mathematics demonstrations ?
I don't think you "prove" generalities like that in economics.
If our understanding in a field like physics, is already a set of conjectures, which are, as far as I know, just strongly backed guesses, then please allow me to use the term "guess" when refering to our shallow understanding of economics.

To get back on topic, I think you can surely show than in isolated cases DRM has had a positive effect.
Yet I wouldn't be so optimistic about the global situation and the total amount of $ that go in the DRM process, and obviously have an impact on game price.

 

[Sander]

That's all well and good, but it just doesn't work.

I can't think of a single Securom 'protected' AAA game in the last three years that wasn't pre'd several days before release.

You're kidding me, right?
There were several. Usually when cracking

Also, (serious question) what is a "casual pirate"?

Someone who pirates because it's convenient.

DRM is ineffective, and of course it promotes piracy. Obviously I can't cite any specific examples (rules and whatnot), but I assure you that many sales have been lost due to nasty DRM.

You assure us? Awesome. I am absolutely and totally convinced that DRM does promote pirac

No, citing 'some people I know' or 'it stands to reason' or anything like that is not convincing proof.

See, this whole 'DRM promotes piracy' myth is based almost entirely on what people think would happen, given that they themselves hate DRM.

The only game I can think of that hadn't been cracked on release (+- a few days) was one Splinter Cell incarnation. Don't remember which one. I think it used StarForce.

The point is that those few days delay can make a significant impact on people who pirate games out of convenience, or at least that's the assumption the companies are operating under. I recall Batman: Arkham Asylum, where there was a lot of publicity around the cracked version being unplayable about half an hour in, that delayed the crack by days.

Did you use the verb "prove" as in, say, mathematics demonstrations ?
I don't think you "prove" generalities like that in economics.
If our understanding in a field like physics, is already a set of conjectures, which are, as far as I know, just strongly backed guesses, then please allow me to use the term "guess" when refering to our shallow understanding of economics.

No, because 'guessing' implies it's just a random conjecture. That's not true for market research.

 

[Brother None]

Re: Bioshock 2's DRM Onion

Just because a company continues to spend perfectly good money on something claiming that it's effective, doesn't necessarily mean that it is, especially when piracy is the question at hand (look at the RIAA's battle and all the good that's done them). I'm doubtful that they have contracted for any serious studies to be done on the actual impact

Right. So since I won't provide numbers and you can't, we're left with an Occam's Razor. Two options:
a) it's a conspiracy/the publishers are massively incompetent/they just hate piracy without rhyme or reasons
b) they're a business and spend long hard hours searching desparately for the most profitable way to create games, and the ones that haven't fled to consoles concluded for a reason that DRM is the answer, though social-based DRM like GfWL and Steam are gaining ground.

I know which one sounds more likely, but you can opt to believe in whatever you want. There is a certain reticince and suspicion in publisher attitude, in game/film/music, but realise this: unlike film and music, games doesn't have a primary to fall back on, they don't have the equivalent of cinemas and concerts, and for that reason they're very limited in the scope of how much they dare experiment with solutions to the problems of piracies. Hence going to hardcore DRM, and only retreating from that not because - as smug pirates would have you think - it didn't work (it did), but because now things are popping up that work better.

It is this response coupled with the original problem that effectively killed PC gaming before digital downloading brought it back to life. And that's sad. Blaming either the publishers or pirates fully is folly to some extent.

Until publishers are willing to publicly disclose their data, I will continue to call BS on them.

And like I said, that's fair. But they've been able to supply me, personally, with proof, which I don't assume will convince you, it's not supposed to, be as I said, if you wish to convince me otherwise, you're going to have to supply me with proof. Since you haven't, I'll assume these "I assure you"-esque suppositions are all you have to stand on? 'k then.

Also, why would publishers want to convince you?

If you assume that every pirated copy of a game is a lost sale (which is what I suspect companies do)

I think one company did that, once.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Right. So since I won't provide numbers and you can't, we're left with an Occam's Razor. Two options:
a) it's a conspiracy/the publishers are massively incompetent/they just hate piracy without rhyme or reasons
b) they're a business and spend long hard hours searching desparately for the most profitable way to create games, and the ones that haven't fled to consoles concluded for a reason that DRM is the answer, though social-based DRM like GfWL and Steam are gaining ground.

You make it sound like those are the only two options. There's also no need to make one of the two sound purposefully ridiculous beyond measure. Also, saying that intrusive DRM is the most successful way is a very wild guess, for had it indeed been so, EVERY PC game released would have it. But it doesn't.

 

[Brother None]

You make it sound like those are the only two options. There's also no need to make one of the two sound purposefully ridiculous beyond measure.

*shrug* Does that invalidate the point?

Also, saying that intrusive DRM is the most successful way is a very wild guess

Good thing I didn't.

 

[x'il]

Re: Bioshock 2's DRM Onion

It is this response coupled with the original problem that effectively killed PC gaming before digital downloading brought it back to life (...)

A question; you say that it effectively killed pc gaming specifically, that means console gaming is "safe" from that?, i mean, console games also get pirated...

 

[OakTable]

I think they should they go the Batman: Arkham Asylum way. They made the glide button unusable, ruining it. I think they patched it in at release or something like that. Owned a few pirating freeloaders.

 

[Brother None]

Re: Bioshock 2's DRM Onion

A question; you say that it effectively killed pc gaming specifically, that means console gaming is "safe" from that?, i mean, console games also get pirated...

Piracy is a fringe problem on consoles, because only hardcore pirates tend to pirate on console. The casual pirates, who can pirate risk-free and with little effort on PCs, do not have such an option on consoles.

Piracy is a non-issue on consoles. And publishers are willing to pay through the nose for that service. It's one of the things that makes the gaming industry the unstable mess it is now.

 

[Starseeker]

huh? Sorry to say this, BN, but piracy isn't a fringe problem on consoles.

It's actually quite easy to pirate games or mod your machines since early consoles. I could pick up burned games retail around any Asian malls without the need to burn them or test them for 3-5 USD a piece.

Of course, these days I can afford real games, I don't bother to mod my machines or get burn games unless it's a rare/collectible game that's too hard to find for older machines.

 

[Brother None]

It's actually quite easy to pirate games or mod your machines since early consoles.

Yes, I know. It's still a fringe problem. Because most people won't, from back in the cartridge days on. CD kind of messed with that, but not in a significant way.

I could pick up burned games retail around any Asian malls without the need to burn them or test them for 3-5 USD a piece.

Yeah, hate to break it to you, buddy, but I'm not talking markets like China or Russia here. They're so inundated with bootlegged copies they're considered lost before we even start.

 

[Starseeker]

LOL, sorry to tell you this, but I got my old machines modded and burned games in Canada.

Most people won't? It's extremely easy, and the hacks get easier as the modding improves. Take ps 1 for example, it used to require a chip, after a while, all you need is to plug something in the back similar to a game genie. PS2 took less than 20 mins and 40 bucks CDN to get a chip onto it. Most people I knew that game immediately modded their machines after hearing about it.

I never said I was talking about markets like China and Russia either.

 

[Brother None]

LOL, sorry to tell you this, but I got my old machines modded and burned games in Canada.

Yes, I am aware it is possible.

Most people I knew that game immediately modded their machines after hearing about it.

Fascinating evidence you present me with. Meanwhile, the number that was bandied about for Xbox 360 was 600k when there were 20 million machines. That's nothing compared to the scope of piracy on the PC. Look at it this way: for the PC, the number of machines potentially able to run pirates copies is 100%. On the console, this is 3%. If you don't understand why that makes publishers flee PC to consoles, I can't help you.

Like it or not, consoles do offer piracy protection exactly because you have to do something difficult - and with possible consequences - before being allowed to do it. This barier blocks out the casual pirates, ie exactly the people publishers are targeting with DRM as well.

If all the factual evidence you have to refute this is "all my friends have modded consoles" and "lol I can buy a pirated game for two bucks in (tag illicit market)" then don't bother.

 

[Starseeker]

You are missing my point.

I am not saying piracy on consoles are bigger than PCs. I am just pointing out the fact that it's a lot easier and readily available in North America than you seem to say it is. I just don't see it as fringe as you claim it to be. And where did the 3% number came from? America? Canada? Europe? Bandied about? I also don't claim anyone I knew to be a huge number at all. I just said it's a lot easier and convenient than you seem to make it out to be.

Of course, I do hang out with a large Asian community here in Canada, and piracy is probably more prevalent in that community.

Wait, does that mean that you are suggesting that machines sold in Asia are write offs or negligible?

 

[Sander]

He's not talking about Asia, but about Russia and China. South-Korea and Japan are huge gaming markets. And yes, China, Russia and the like are largely irrelevant as markets due to the prevalence of piracy.

Also, modding consoles might be readily available, but it's a lot more hassle than piracy on PC.

 

[Brother None]

I just said it's a lot easier and convenient than you seem to make it out to be.

Then you missed my point. It's irrelevant how easy and convenient it is, it is relevant how prevalent it is, which is "not prevalent enough to matter". Ease doesn't factor into my argument, other than to note the root cause lies in its ease of piracy being less than that of PC.

 

[Grimhound]

It's a good thing the rest of the world doesn't have to worry about Bioshock 2 since the Games for Windows LIVE service denies the existence of 90% of the planet and 2k doesn't have any sort of backup plan.

 

[Tagaziel]

It's a good thing the rest of the world doesn't have to worry about Bioshock 2 since the Games for Windows LIVE service denies the existence of 90% of the planet and 2k doesn't have any sort of backup plan.

Bwahaha, that was actually a clever snide comment.

 

[OakTable]

Good thing there's Steam for you PC crowd. This is why I stick to consoles. The PC version may use some piece of shit like GameSpy or GfWL but the Xbox 360 is always XBL. The only thing I'm missing is the dedicated servers. Is there any reason why you can't use dedicated servers on consoles?

 

[GreyViper]

Having recently found out about Ubisoft´s plans about their games. Kind of makes me wonder which is worse. To be honest there aren't that many UBI games Im looking forward, but still no single play offline?
Anyway its not as GfWL and similar I have problem with, mostly it was limited install nr, really got burned with that one. :/

Edit: Link to ubi article. http://support.uk.ubi.com/online-services-platform/