East and West propaganda vs reality

Gonzalez

Gonzalez

Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Ok, for starters some Free World fallouty style propaganda showing us just how evil the East is :D

Checkpoint Charlie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=FL2W32FZpxy4nOkmcKzgJVJg&v=z4Tk9iYbZI4

Now something from our East Comrades showing us just how wonderful life in the East really is:

ZDF Reportage 1972 Berlin-Ost (part 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXLRvWKBl4w

ZDF Reportage 1972 Berlin-Ost (part zwei) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdgrHNrWJCY

And now an interesting documentary that shows us that sometimes not everything is always black or white: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dFdKjhgt3k

Any of you is either old enough to remember or know people who has lived a good part of their lives in the "East" during the Cold War? My perception is mostly from a western country since all of our info here in Argentina came from Western media, we only knew the East from the eyes of the US and its allies. Of course as I grew up and more info became available after the fall of the wall (was born in 85) I started to question what I always knew.

Discuss.
 
Eh I've always lived here in the Netherlands, no relatives in any very culturally different countries. Some friends in canada.

All I know of the cold war is the things I picked up on the internet. I know more of world war 2 since my parents and grandparents have many tales to tell of that of course.

I do know that in many instances of war and mostly in situations where there is conflict, the "other side" is almsot always villainized without question. Leadership needs to maintain control on information and spread a culture of us vs them to stop people from realizing how silly it all is.

That makes it all the more inspiring to hear of people crossing the Berlin wall and being surprised at how little difference there was between citizens of the two country halves. You hear people say how they realized that the wall was the seperation, not the split in people.
 
Life in the West was always, and still is, much better. My parents had to go by train to Moscow (!) to wait in a day-long line hoping to grab a pair of new shoes or trousers. Rations like 300g of salami or a bar of chocolate for a month came with little surprise. Doing late night shifts for sick family members and employed at the age of 14-15 just to help pay for upkeep was routine. Books were generally the only fun in an otherwise boring life.

Americans? Enjoying private houses. A car (or even two). High salaries and vacations abroad. A variety of food on the table - not bread and butter. The distinction is pretty clear to me.
 
Everything in a good measure. Too much economic freedom takes us to where we are today.
People think of "economic freedom" in terms of their own life "that sounds nice, free to be even more wealthy, no?" no. Freedom for your boss to drip even more life out of you.

A bit off topic there, but the cold war was an ideological struggle between two extremes that we, in retrospect, can say that nobody needed.
 
I've come to the realization that a man is only worth the tools he surrounds himself with. If you can't farm, fabricate, code, teach, mine, in your economy, it sucks.
 
What's true though is that the view on the historical events of the cold war, are usually very one sided, if only for the fact that we hear it from people that studied it but have never actually experienced it. There are a lot of new generations of Russian and east European historians that only now can actually try to really look in to the details of the events and eventually giving us a different look on the situations. New sources, witnesses and of course the victims of the systems. There is a whole history regardine the Soviet Union where we basically have no access to to say that, simply because a lot of it is not available in our languages.

Sub-Human said:
Americans? Enjoying private houses. A car (or even two). High salaries and vacations abroad. A variety of food on the table - not bread and butter. The distinction is pretty clear to me.
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only for those that can afford it though. I mean detroit is really not very far behind some former east block states ... in some cases even worse ...
 
I'm gonna back Crni Vuk on this one. It's vital to understand that the life in a communist country was worse on average than in a Western one,but it's not to say the West was or is without its lows.

Basically, I was born well too late to be able to paint you a picture of Communism of my own, but I can put together the pieces: chocolate was a rarity. You most likely were not going to have your own car, and it was common to live in overcrowded housing. I'm pretty sure I've seen some figures that shown how healthcare was inferior,and mortality rates higher in the East. And there was a lot of fear of the state apparatus, and little public oversight of the police or state security forces.

How did we perceive the West, though? One word: Paradise. (and that is a prevalent sentiment even to this day, although having now lived in the West for two years, I beg to differ). People who had relatives abroad would be swayed by tales of prosperity and plenty, and we would always take any opportunity to get at least a whiff of that (heck, at some point, we'd pay money to buy discarded Western shopping catalogues. Just to get a glimpse of the greener grass on the other side of the fence.) And there were always people looking to jump the border, something which is mentioned in the video.

The government, of course, went out of their way to denigrate the West in the eyes of its subjects. Much attention was given to the problems plaguing the U.S. in that period for example, such as the civil rights movement and its suppression. Also,the poor and marginalized of Western societies. My Ma would, with her scout troop, go around collecting blankets and coats to be shipped to freezing homeless Americans. The propaganda would paint your average Westerner as a sly, scheming individual, looking out only for themselves, and lacking the morale and the team spirit of your enthusiastic Socialist ;)

There was a few things done right, education came high on the agenda,and was easy to get even if you were from an non-intelligentsia background,or just plain poor, a lot of preference was given to underprivileged sons and daughters of peasants and workers to be able to go to schools and universities, and there were some pretty impressive industrial projects,though this investment came at the expense of consumption.

All in all, it was a bit like medieval China, with the state propaganda vying to make you think that you are living in the place where you've got everything you need and there is absolutely nothing except peril past the Wall; we all know how well that went (Soviet style communism, not China; I think the jury is still out on China)

I'll look up some more vids to help you get into the zeitgeist if I can manage to, Gonzalez :)

EDIT: Also, this never gets old: The PSA describes how American planes are dropping Colorado beetles to ruin our potato crops. You insidious Yanks! ;) As you see, it was pretty ridiculous sometimes :)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CYKU9jmBK0[/youtube] (only French subtitles, though :()
 
Oh I also think they used the Beatles.

The response of the Communists to Western Rock and Roll was sometimes hilarious, and sometimes insane.
 
And jeans. Dont forget the jeans. Young people in the Sovietunion loved those. The tighter the better!
 
Imo the details of how well life is in east vs west block country is trivial and misleading from real issues, a power struggle between super powers ready to use the means at their disposal, to bring the other one down, either by means of force, or social manipulation.
Jeans, Mickey Mouse, freedom to stuff your mind with pointless junk is a good weapon, and is still being used today, which was what I touched by above. The ideological part becomes important, because one of the two sides is ideologically concerned around enriching the individuals pulling string, while the other is more concerned with production, and actually maintaining a country.
There is a reason socialists insist on gvt controlled businesses (gvt=state=people, in theory), while capitalists insist on letting everyone fend for themselves (which is just another way of funneling the majority of money flow into fewer pockets), and keep businesses private (meaning the gvt must also fend for itself).

Again, the details of exactly how successful a state might have been at their ideals is always going to be a debate, but reality is that the winning side, the capitalist side if you will, is the one whos ideal boils down to luring the masses with "fun toys" and "careless life" ideals, empty dreams of monetary fortunes (no tax wooh), is all a big business ploy which will even let the state itself crumble if necesary.
We're the champions, and look at the Russian Federation now - a beacon of western victory! :D

/ramble
 
Germany and quite a large part of Europe is hanging on the tits of Mother Russia which are filled with natural gas.

I am not sure who was really the winner here ...
 
Crni Vuk said:
Germany and quite a large part of Europe is hanging on the tits of Mother Russia which are filled with natural gas.

I am not sure who was really the winner here ...
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Hasn't that been privatized allready? Or partly at least.

My conclusion was meant ironically anyway: There are no winners, except the business tycoons who did the "let's privatize everything and tempt people with jeans and mickey mouse!"-gamble.
They are still winning, by the way.
Look at the news. Cities on fire, people pelting police with rocks. Any hanged business tycoons yet? Any burning corpses? Nnnope.

They're still winning, and people are getting their ass kicked, and cops go home wondering why people hate them so much, etc, "we only do our job :("
 
privatize? Well yeah Grazprom. We get a lot of resources from Russia, this includes nations like Poland, Germany, France etc. Hell if I remember right Germany receives like what 60% of its natural Gas from Russia? Thats why no politician here wants to piss them off by asking questions about Chechnya. If someone like Assad is killing people then he is a terrorist and dictator. If someone like Putin is doing it then he is fighting terrorists and Dictators. And now they also have a fun about making homosexuals the next public enemy. Oh well. I dont know what Russia is today ... but its sure not a democracy.
 
Crni Vuk said:
privatize? Well yeah Grazprom. We get a lot of resources from Russia, this includes nations like Poland, Germany, France etc. Hell if I remember right Germany receives like what 60% of its natural Gas from Russia? Thats why no politician here wants to piss them off by asking questions about Chechnya. If someone like Assad is killing people then he is a terrorist and dictator. If someone like Putin is doing it then he is fighting terrorists and Dictators. And now they also have a fun about making homosexuals the next public enemy. Oh well. I dont know what Russia is today ... but its sure not a democracy.
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Yes yes, you are right, and you are just confirming what I'm trying to say. Maybe I'm being vague in my wording here, but to summarize:
Imo, the propaganda pull between "east block" and "west block" was not so much about the details of ordinary life (such as personal freedom) but about one side trying to represent a state-preserving policy (socialism) vs the other representing a business preserving policy (capitalism). The two are a major hindrance in each others path - so both try to defend their point of view, and if necesary, sugar-top it:
Socialists - believe in us, and the gvt will take full control over all assets. Any economic surplus will be equally divided. You will be taxed according to a percentage, making sure nobody suffers more than others, and tax will go to the community. There will be rainbows, and unicorns!
Capitalists - believe in us, and the gvt will fuck off and let you keep all your money. No more tax! You can throw this money in the air, sprinkle it down on yourself, and surely: There will be money! Yes, for YOU! And there will be unicorns.

The result is victory for capitalism, and the free flow of business ideas, business restrictions (from each others, onto each others, through political manipulation), business proposals, etc etc, to the point where entire countries are owned privately, fragment by fragment.

Why did capitalism win? Because it catered to the CORE of survivalism - YOU*. The very individual. (More technically it won due to its eagerness to advertise on widely broadcast tv channels, billboards, and really foster consumerism, shamelessly even. While Socialism is inherently principle bound to oppose wanton consumerism and advertisement on that scale)
When all comes down to all, do YOU want to survive, or do you want all your neighbors to survive thanks to you having been taxed?
People are easily lured with this ultimate egocentric prospect.

*and me, and everyone concerned.
 
zegh8578 said:
Crni Vuk said:
Germany and quite a large part of Europe is hanging on the tits of Mother Russia which are filled with natural gas.

I am not sure who was really the winner here ...
Click to expand...

Hasn't that been privatized allready? Or partly at least.

My conclusion was meant ironically anyway: There are no winners, except the business tycoons who did the "let's privatize everything and tempt people with jeans and mickey mouse!"-gamble.
They are still winning, by the way.
Look at the news. Cities on fire, people pelting police with rocks. Any hanged business tycoons yet? Any burning corpses? Nnnope.

They're still winning, and people are getting their ass kicked, and cops go home wondering why people hate them so much, etc, "we only do our job :("
Click to expand...

And you. Because of those people you live a pretty comfortable life sitting around talking on a video game forum with your own computer, cell phone, or whatever inside a nice home with cheap electricity and clean running water. Your life is full of luxuries allowing you the time to talk about perceived evils of the world.
 
Mad Max RW said:
zegh8578 said:
Crni Vuk said:
Germany and quite a large part of Europe is hanging on the tits of Mother Russia which are filled with natural gas.

I am not sure who was really the winner here ...
Click to expand...

Hasn't that been privatized allready? Or partly at least.

My conclusion was meant ironically anyway: There are no winners, except the business tycoons who did the "let's privatize everything and tempt people with jeans and mickey mouse!"-gamble.
They are still winning, by the way.
Look at the news. Cities on fire, people pelting police with rocks. Any hanged business tycoons yet? Any burning corpses? Nnnope.

They're still winning, and people are getting their ass kicked, and cops go home wondering why people hate them so much, etc, "we only do our job :("
Click to expand...

And you. Because of those people you live a pretty comfortable life sitting around talking on a video game forum with your own computer, cell phone, or whatever inside a nice home with cheap electricity and clean running water. Your life is full of luxuries allowing you the time to talk about perceived evils of the world.
Click to expand...

Yes. I know. I hope you didn't intend that reply to "throw me off" or something, because frankly, I wouldn't know what part of my own argument would fall apart if I were thrown off.

Consimerism has been kind to me, but so has socialist ideals (welfare state, Norway).

"In nature" I'd be dead meat anyway. Autistic. So yes, thank you society! And may I be allowed to keep criticizing your many fascets for many years to come!
 
Not you in particular because your post after was very good at clarifying what you meant. I'm thinking more along the lines of everybody. The thing that amuses me is when the most spoiled people on this planet start ranting about businesses and capitalism when they benefit from it more than anybody else. Remember all those dopes at Occupy Wall Street? These hypocrites came out of their $500,000 apartments to hang out in parks, kicking out the homeless then tweeting and livestreaming about the evils of big business. The argument is lost when they have no credibility. It's just a big joke.
 
You are simplifying the issue to much, talking about the occupy movement like it was one unified group like a political party. Not to mention that the financial issues the western world is currently experiencing is rather serious. Not to mention that many of the issues third world nations have one way or another have their cause in our financial and economical sectors. How did someone once said? We are rich because they are poor. Now rich is a relative term here. Try talking to the people in those areas that actually are not part of the economic wealth, like the rust belt of the USA. The loosers of the economy. States that made the wrong decisions for example or simply didn't made the same demographic changes. In Germany this was very true for the Coal and Steel industry which had to deal with massive changes since both Steel and Coal became very cheap on the world market, don't forget one of the Reasons why the European Union was created have been common economic targets, there was no way how either France, Germany or other nations could as individual states compete with the increasing power of the US economy. People that believe globalisation would be a new thing from our age are wrong. Its been here for a long time already. Probably even before WW2.

Just because other nations have issues that might be more serious then our problems doesn't mean western nations don't have to fight with their own problems. Do you stop going to your doctor because of a broken leg simply because others suffer from AIDS or cancer?
 
Mad Max, I'm not sure what your angle is here. It reminds me of Iraq veterans who tell me to shut up about Iraq untill I havebeen there and preferably died. People have told me to not talk about starvation in Africa, untill I go there and remedy it.
I'm on welfare.
I can't feed Africa!

As for occupy wall street, I tried explaining to Americans what they do wrong.
They scolded me for being an arm-chair protester, with no experience to back myself up with. Okay then. I told them their movement would die out in about a year.
A year later it was fucking dead.

We all know that we REALLY enjoy our way of life, but should that mean we are not allowed to realize that our enjoyable lifestyle comes from the suffering of others?
What are my options then?
To pretend I never realized that other peoples suffering enrich my life, or to conciously turn into an asshole, and be glad that suffering indirectly provides me with goods - OR
should I symbolically shed all my joys in life, and try to imitate a level of suffering that... you know, it's too ridiculous to even complete the sentence.

It is perfectly acceptable to observe the world around you, no matter how entangled in this very world you are. And if injustice upsets you, you can be as upset as you want, even if you indirectly got a finger in this injustice. Occupy wall street was good in the sense that the thought counts ;D
Next try, they should be more prepared to lose what they own, if they really want that kind of change.

They should think twice before coming here for my computer tho. I got an iron pipe, and I'm not afraid to use it.
 
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