Elections in Russia

[Colonel_here]

I don't see any problems with Putin run Russia, as so far under him the country started to live better, incomes went up, inflation decreased, people found work, military factories and development institutes have started to return back to working on what they worked during Soviet era.

 

[Brother None]

I don't see any problems with Putin run Russia, as so far under him the country started to live better, incomes went up, inflation decreased, people found work, military factories and development institutes have started to return back to working on what they worked during Soviet era.

Uh-huh. And you do realise that's mostly due to the rising oil barrel and thus gas price, and not due to Putin himself? Putin's major accomplishments lie in politics, by ousting the oligarchs that Yeltsin let in the back door. His economic and fiscal policies made an ounce of sense in his first term, but he appears to have gone somewhat batshit crazy in his second term, mostly due to the Moscow lobby winning out over the St Petersburg lobby if you ask me.

His obsession with getting rid of the remaining debt that Russia inherited from the USSR (not a bad thing, per se) means he and most noticeably Gazprom have failed to reinvest enough in Russia's long-term economic viability and Gazprom's short-term profitability by improving the company's own pipelines...and this means trouble. The Russian economy is not very healthy, at all, and if an economic crisis happens in the next 5 years, and it will, you know who to blame.

 

[13pm]

I don't see any problems with Putin run Russia, as so far under him the country started to live better, incomes went up, inflation decreased, people found work, military factories and development institutes have started to return back to working on what they worked during Soviet era.

LOL. That's a typical propaganda that is poured on us from government-controlled mass media. Who started to live better? Pensioneers maybe? Or lower class? The thing is the gap between higher and lower classes became even bigger than it was. How can we call the living a better one, when it's impossible for a young man or woman or family to buy a flat.

Nothing was done to improve economic state. No-thing. Russia still doesn't produce any goods. We just trade our resources and buy em reworked to goods much more expensive as they were as a source. The course taken just aggravated the situation that was started during Yeltsin's government.

 

[Blakut]

Medvedev looks more like a relaxed, kind uncle or something.

The kind of uncle that gives children candy...

I don't see any problems with Putin run Russia, as so far under him the country started to live better, incomes went up, inflation decreased, people found work, military factories and development institutes have started to return back to working on what they worked during Soviet era.

He's ex-KGB and wants to make Russia into a new Soviet Republic, a world power. I'm afraid of a new cold war... And my country is pretty close to Russia...

 

[Brother None]

He's ex-KGB and wants to make Russia into a new Soviet Republic, a world power. I'm afraid of a new cold war...

That, I'm afraid, is also nonsense.

There's so much nonsense on both sides of the spectrum, for or against, pro or con...

 

[egalor]

Blakut,

So do you prefer the world domination of the US? I think *then* you will have something to be really afraid of, man.

 

[Blakut]

So do you prefer the world domination of the US? I think *then* you will have something to be really afraid of, man.

Is it better to live in a world dominated by one country or in a world that is permanently on the edge of nuclear war? I wouldn like it if Russia would become a prosperous democracy, it is a great cou ntry, i've been there and i love the places, the people (i am 1/3 russian btw), but Putin won't make it a prosperous democracy. He slowly takes freedom away from his people and they accept it, because they have no idea what freedom is. They always switched one form of dominating government with another. For one thing, americans, with the many flaws their country has, have this great habit of protesting and rioting, something which i find lacking in my fellow eastern europeans. Russia controls the flow of natural gas (methane) into my country and the whole Europe. They get mad, they switch of the gas flow, they used this as leverege in many negotiations, like a blackmail. I don't want my country to be energy dependent on a country wich is a dictatorship.

And don't worry about who will oppose the US: you can oppose the US and counter their world domination through economic methods, not military ones. In a few years the EU and separately, China, would be powerful enough.

 

[iii]

So do you prefer the world domination of the US? I think *then* you will have something to be really afraid of, man.

Is it better to live in a world dominated by one country or in a world that is permanently on the edge of nuclear war? I wouldn like it if Russia would become a prosperous democracy, it is a great cou ntry, i've been there and i love the places, the people (i am 1/3 russian btw), but Putin won't make it a prosperous democracy. He slowly takes freedom away from his people and they accept it, because they have no idea what freedom is. They always switched one form of dominating government with another. For one thing, americans, with the many flaws their country has, have this great habit of protesting and rioting, something which i find lacking in my fellow eastern europeans. Russia controls the flow of natural gas (methane) into my country and the whole Europe. They get mad, they switch of the gas flow, they used this as leverege in many negotiations, like a blackmail. I don't want my country to be energy dependent on a country wich is a dictatorship.

Jesus K Rist!

What an unthinkingly bunch of superficial knowledge!

 

[Blakut]

What an unthinkingly bunch of superficial knowledge!

What knowledge is superficial? The only mistake i made is that it's not the *whole* of Europe that takes NG from Russia, but in the eastern part, that's where we get it from.

 

[Brother None]

Hey, Fahrplan, check your private messages, please.

Is it better to live in a world dominated by one country or in a world that is permanently on the edge of nuclear war? I wouldn like it if Russia would become a prosperous democracy, it is a great cou ntry, i've been there and i love the places, the people (i am 1/3 russian btw), but Putin won't make it a prosperous democracy. He slowly takes freedom away from his people and they accept it, because they have no idea what freedom is. They always switched one form of dominating government with another. For one thing, americans, with the many flaws their country has, have this great habit of protesting and rioting, something which i find lacking in my fellow eastern europeans.

I think he called this bit "superficial". Most Russian experts don't like it too much when you claim there is some natural inclination to tyranny Russia has. It's like Stalin said "this is a country of the Czar, and in the end, we must run it with a Czar." Foolish presidium dying at his hands, eh?

I'm currently writing a paper based on the constitution crisis of 1993. While it's not finished, the conclusion is shaping up to be; Russia's state structure allows for both democracy and dictatorship. And while it's the classic question of "kto kogo" that's slowly surfacing and it could take a definite turn towards either one, the funny thing, which many people don't realise, is that Russia was never a hybrid of both, but instead had both forms of civilization existing independently of each other.

It is a dictatorship in political form, but it is a liberal democracy in civil freedom. That still applies, even if Putin added the adjective "as long as you shut up." The influence of society on the top brass was always limited, but it was never, and still isn't, non-existent. Putin still fears the people, not vice versa.

Americans surely aren't a very good example of a democracy. At all.

Russia controls the flow of natural gas (methane) into my country and the whole Europe. They get mad, they switch of the gas flow, they used this as leverege in many negotiations, like a blackmail. I don't want my country to be energy dependent on a country wich is a dictatorship.

Uhm, not to be too facetious, but most of the Western world has depended on dictatorships for the flow of gas and oil for half a century now. Russia is by far not the worst of 'em. Never heard of the 1973 oil crisis, used as blackmail for the Yom Kippur war?

And don't worry about who will oppose the US: you can oppose the US and counter their world domination through economic methods, not military ones. In a few years the EU and separately, China, would be powerful enough.

In a few years the dollar crisis might happen, and the debate would be completely different.

 

[Blakut]

Uhm, not to be too facetious, but most of the Western world has depended on dictatorships for the flow of gas and oil for half a century now. Russia is by far not the worst of 'em. Never heard of the 1973 oil crisis, used as blackmail for the Yom Kippur war?

Yes, i know about the oil crysis, however, the incident of Russia using this resource to gain an advatange in a negotiation is much more recent. Many raw resources come from third world countries, many of which are indeed dictatorships.

I think he called this bit "superficial". Most Russian experts don't like it too much when you claim there is some natural inclination to tyranny Russia has. It's like Stalin said "this is a country of the Czar, and in the end, we must run it with a Czar." Foolish presidium dying at his hands, eh?

I believe i understand what you mean, but after all i've read about this country, that was my conclusion. I mean, some of the countries that emerged from communism just before the fall of the USSR have since then banned or condemned communism in their countries. Russian recent history (or industry?) was build by communism, by dictators. Their faces are engraved on walls of schools, factories, train stations, subway stations.

And while it's the classic question of "kto kogo" that's slowly surfacing and it could take a definite turn towards either one, the funny thing, which many people don't realise, is that Russia was never a hybrid of both, but instead had both forms of civilization existing independently of each other.

Yeah, but since when do you think Russia has had these to forms of coexisting civilizations?

My objection is that some people nowadays still think about the cold war and the great conflict between the Soviet Union and the USA. They actually believe that a balance of power, similar to the one during the Cold War, is a good and desirable thing and that Russia has to step in to tip that balance in her favor. Maybe it is good to have this equilibrum, but i'm not so sure.

 

[liberty rogue]

LOL. That's a typical propaganda that is poured on us from government-controlled mass media. Who started to live better? Pensioneers maybe? Or lower class?

Well, I definitely did. Six years ago I was a citizen of a failed state without any hope for the future, except, maybe, an emigration. I spent most of my time thinking about how the hell could dodge the draft and I didn't really own anything. And I actually liked Tolstoy, imagine that.

Over the next five years my assets (not sure this is the correct word) increased so much that I don't really have to work anymore. I'm in no way associated with oil or government or whatever. I worked as a journalist in a newspaper in most ugly-rotten part of Moscow. I read mostly Nietzsche and Dostoevsky now.

One thing surely hasn't changed: I still have those uncontrollable urges to invade Poland.

I don't really watch television, relying mostly on the internet for information. I'm not really oppressed politically. I even participated in this unsanctioned "uprising" in Moscow about half a year ago. Damaged my leg. I can't blame anyone: we, the "rebels" have blocked one of the key streets in the city and some moron freedom fighters tried to attack the police. The best moment was then the OMON squad charged at us with shields, clubs and a battlecry; I was holding a Sanskrit dictionary in one hand and latest Pelevin's book in the other, time stopped and thought that it would be very hard to explain to these guys that I'm actually pro-Putin and I'm not really a rebel, just chillin' here.

Still, good fun.

Did a bit of reading after the event, the western newspapers were as crappy as usual.

Oh, and I've seen Mark Ames with my own eyes.

Nothing was done to improve economic state. No-thing. Russia still doesn't produce any goods. We just trade our resources and buy em reworked to goods much more expensive as they were as a source. The course taken just aggravated the situation that was started during Yeltsin's government.

Eh? Most of the things I buy are produced (food, drinks) or published (DVD's) here. Computers, cars and household appliances are in most cases manufactured locally as well.

His obsession with getting rid of the remaining debt that Russia inherited from the USSR (not a bad thing, per se) means he and most noticeably Gazprom have failed to reinvest enough in Russia's long-term economic viability and Gazprom's short-term profitability by improving the company's own pipelines...and this means trouble.

The argument about Russia being in huge dept to someone was popularly used in late 90s as a proof that we are, indeed, failures. Getting rid of it was smart (though populist) decision.

I'm currently writing a paper based on the constitution crisis of 1993. While it's not finished, the conclusion is shaping up to be; Russia's state structure allows for both democracy and dictatorship. And while it's the classic question of "kto kogo" that's slowly surfacing and it could take a definite turn towards either one, the funny thing, which many people don't realise, is that Russia was never a hybrid of both, but instead had both forms of civilization existing independently of each other.

Whoa. That's probably most interesting piece of a thought I read in a whole month.

Though, I don't think that we have two separate forms of civilization defined by political views, but we definitely have a caste society. Low caste has it's own different and exceptionally strong subculture and sublanguage. (Some parts of it are delivered from Hebrew, some from Tatar and I swear I've heard a Sanscrit word somewhere). Intellectual caste has it's own set of rules and things taboo and is rather nihilistic in it's essence. They are somewhat distant to each other and rarely interbreed.

Still, it's good to hear that someone tries to understand whats happening in his own terms, because people usually prefer to comrade us to death.

 

[Brother None]

I was holding a Sanskrit dictionary in one hand and latest Pelevin's book in the other, time stopped and thought that it would be very hard to explain to these guys that I'm actually pro-Putin and I'm not really a rebel, just chillin' here.

Duh it's hard to explain. You got some weird hobbies, man.

Did a bit of reading after the event, the western newspapers were as crappy as usual.

Crappy?

Yes, I suppose so, most of them didn't really try to understand "what the hell?" but just copied whatever AP said. That's usually the case of a number of regions in the world, though, including Russia, the Middle East and most of Africa. Be careful what you read.

Eh? Most of the things I buy are produced (food, drinks) or published (DVD's) here. Computers, cars and household appliances are in most cases manufactured localy as well.

Well, this is going to get complex because it pertains to the economic concept of shadow economy, which is a story in and of itself...

Dunno if I wrote it out here before, but long story short; the Russian industry, as inherited from Soviet times, does not have the profitability to have a net amount of added value to products in the economic loop. This means that in any normal economic circumstances all those companies and factories are bankrupt by definition.

This is a problem that goes back to 1991 and no one has ever dared touch it, neither Yeltsin nor Putin.

The added value of the Russian economy comes almost purely from economic gains of Gazprom.

It's true, there have been some foreign investments in creating profitable, self-sustaining companies and some have reformed, but nobody knows exactly how many factories and companies reformed enough to be profitable on themselves. It's impossible to know, that's one of the trick of shadow economy, because you can't disentangle individual companies from the profitability loop.

So the moment Gazprom's profitability stops increasing (note: that's all it takes. They don't have to lose money, just make less), which is per definition the moment that Gazprom's failure to update its pipelines catches up with them (often predicted to be within a few years), it'll all come crashing down. And only then will we see how far the Russian economy has actually grown. But the crash is inevitable.
Putin knows that, and he does nothing.

The argument about Russia being in huge dept to someone was popularly used in late 90s as a proof that we are, indeed, failures. Getting rid of it was smart (though populist) decision.

Debt is not a good thing, that doesn't mean it's smart to sanitize your own debts by definition. If you're an unprofitable company, like Russia's economy is, your priority should be to become profitable and then pay back your debts, because otherwise you'll just exacerbate the problem.

Though, I don't think that we have two separate forms of civilization defined by political views, buy we definitely have a caste society. Low caste has it's own different and exceptionally strong subculture and sublanguage. (Some parts of it are delivered from Hebrew, some from Tatar and I swear I've heard a Sanscrit word somewhere). Intellectual caste has it's own set of rules and things taboo and is rather nihilistic in it's essence. They are somewhat distant to each other and rarely interbreed.

I don't agree in directly comparing it to a Caste system, nor is it directly related to intellectual and "low", it has more to do with a separation between someone's daily life and the political entity of Russia. In the West, the two are always intermixed, in Russia, they are separate.

Still, it's goos to hear that someone tries to understand whats happening in his own terms, because people usually prefer to comrade us.

I always figured people just say "komrad" because they can't twist their tongue around tovarishch.

But my university subject is Russian Studies. Russian history, law, economics and politics and, to a minor extent, language. I should damned well at least know basic political terms like the highly popularized (thanks V.I.!) "kto kogo"

 

[Neamos]

I am amazed by the lack of "They crave repressions! Oppression runs in their blood!" ITT.

<3 NMA

Nothing particularly interesting on the elections front a the moment.

 

[iii]

@ Blakut: Sorry, for my cocky comment, I wasn't in the best mood when I posted it. Next time I'll be more constructive and explain my point of view to you.

BTW:

The new Freedom House Index is out!

http://www.freedomhouse.org

Russia is now on the same rank as Pakistan and Quatar!

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=372&year=2007

 

[Neamos]

Why is Poland partly free in 1982?

 

[Brother None]

Why is Poland partly free in 1982?

Because people were just that stupid.

 

[Colonel_here]

On the subject of debt repayment by Russia:
I talked with a person who works in country risk analysis department of one of Canada's largest bank. Her response was that it is a good thing. The smaller the debt of the country the higher investment rating the country gets and easier for it to get loans later. Especially if the loans that are being repayed are IMF and WB loans that have conditions attached to them. The higher the country rating for the country the much easier and cheaper it is to get loans from commercial banks that do not put conditions on their loans. Plus with US sub-prime crisis all loaning instititutions have become more risk averse. Kazakhstan and its banks that relied heavily of foreign loans to finance their internal operations now have lost few grades on investment risk scale because people are wondering how the country will pay off the debts if many of teh debts can't be rolled over now.

On the subject of Poland 1982.
Since Khrushchev time Poland was doing things differently from soviet Union and Soviet Union left it alone because it promised to have same foreign policy as Soviet Union and stay in Warsaw pact, so some private enterprises and privatizations on small scale was allowed in Poland.

Brother None if Russian economy is one leg in the recession and bankruptcy than why does Standard and Poor (one of the two top rating agencies on Earth) is giving it a grade of BBB+ which is normal investment grade under which countries should have no problems in finding foreign investors. There is a lot of industry on the rise in Russia and they don't rely on Gazprom profits because they are not subsidies by the government. Actually a lot of them have been hurt by raising oil and gaz prices because for them transportation and other costs went up.

On the subject of Freedom:
Let's look at Singapore. Criticisms of their first prime minister Lee Kuan Yew was officially a crime, opposition used to get imprisoned, fined and chased out of their head offices on regular basis. Yet despite of those problems with political freedom look at at Signapore today, it was build by Lee Kuan Yew. One of the world biggest financial centers (challenging Hong Kong and Tokyo), R&D center (well respected), biggest repair shipyard in the world, center for high tech manufacturing. And that was all done with 30 years of work people went from poor and dying to rich and thriving. Singapore is so rich that it now gives subsidies to infrastructure of the countries its companies are expanding to.
Sometimes you need to shut some people up because all they do is add more chaos and disorder and nothing to progress the economy. Back int he day i never liked reading Russian news or watching them because they put you in depression as they only talked about how crappy things are, murders and more crap about how life is crappy in Russia. That was sure to get people into happy mood of going and trying to work or start their own business. Inc comparison the news now are much more on brighter side which gives people more hope that their country is recovering and not lost. Reforms are always are long term and most of the time the people are not in the office long enough fro reforms to be completed or even to progress enough, but if the leadership keeps changing and each time doing something different from the previous, all that wil happen is stagnation as nothing will get done.

 

[Brother None]

I talked with a person who works in country risk analysis department of one of Canada's largest bank. Her response was that it is a good thing. The smaller the debt of the country the higher investment rating the country gets and easier for it to get loans later.

I never said it's a bad thing, I said Putin is prioritizing wrong. It's more important for Russia, right now, to invest in its own economy than to repay debts. Repaying debts is good, but it's not always the best thing.

Though Putin might well be consciously steering towards a crisis because he understands, as a long-term thinker would, that a crisis on the short term is necessary for health in the long term, especially to purge certain businesses.

Brother None if Russian economy is one leg in the recession and bankruptcy than why does Standard and Poor (one of the two top rating agencies on Earth) is giving it a grade of BBB+ which is normal investment grade under which countries should have no problems in finding foreign investors. There is a lot of industry on the rise in Russia and they don't rely on Gazprom profits because they are not subsidies by the government. Actually a lot of them have been hurt by raising oil and gaz prices because for them transportation and other costs went up.

Everyone profits from Gazprom because of lowered internal gas prices.

That said, I don't care about Standard and Poor. People don't seem to understand that the investment viability of a country and its economic stability are often not directly related. Russia is a very good short-term investment because of the artificial stability of the rubl, the large internal market and rising property values.

But, like the USA which is also still a popular investment place, economists can identify underlying structural weaknesses (for the financial market in the USA, for the industrial market in Russia) that will inevitably leads to an economic crisis. That doesn't mean a smart investor couldn't make a profit, though, which is why the two are irrelevantly tied.

Sometimes you need to shut some people up because all they do is add more chaos and disorder and nothing to progress the economy.

That's a famous slippery slope and a simplification. Let's not go down that route.

Russia's lack of freedom right now is indeed tied to its status as a country in transition, still, but your attitude misrepresents and misunderstands the strengths of civil society, and are, to be frank, fairly backwards.

 

[Congo Levi]

This thread makes me wanna learn more about russian literature and history. To the library! *whoosh*