Hardboiled Android
Vault Fossil
There are some instances where karma makes sense. A prostitute killing kleptomaniac should not be looked well upon by almost any faction. If anything it allow us to keep track of what we've done
Elements and ideas Fallout 4 should take over from Fallout New Vegas
- Thread starter The Dutch Ghost
- Start date
Vault Fossil
There are some instances where karma makes sense. A prostitute killing kleptomaniac should not be looked well upon by almost any faction. If anything it allow us to keep track of what we've done
Moosick
cats
almost all of it.
Oppen
FIXT n°1 fan
The reputation system still makes far more sense, since for hating you for being a prostitute killing kleptomaniac, they need to know what you are first. It isn't as if there is Facebook in Fallout, not everyone know everything about everybody.
PossibleCabbage
Vault 22 Survivor
I think it makes more sense to have a "general" reputation meter than a karma meter. That way you can penalize people for doing things that are universally frowned upon or reward them for doing things that are universally lauded, without having to engage in weird ethical gymnastics like "it's okay to straight up murder everybody at Cottonwood Cove, that's just fine, BUT DON'T TAKE THEIR STUFF, THAT'S WRONG, but looting their corpses is fine."
Oppen
FIXT n°1 fan
Still, I wonder how would they know. A general reputation could make sense for specially high-profile deeds, like mass murder. But, for example, why would anyone in a town that I never visited know that I'm a cleptomaniac? What reason would they have to hate me? Gossip just can't go that far. The same goes for the goody two shoes. Why would someone in Rivet City care if I went and gave puppies to the kids in Little Lamplight? They probably don't even know each other...
PossibleCabbage
Vault 22 Survivor
Well, the reputation mechanic in New Vegas does take into account stealth. Like you can kill as many Legionaries as you want from stealth provided you're not spotted and the Legion won't hate you for it. So you could have the general reputation meter work on the same principle: those acts you commit when the game tells you "no one can see you" (i.e. there's a big "[HIDDEN]" on the HUD, don't count, but everything else does because someone could have conceivably seen you. This is one of those gamey abstractions that more or less makes sense. Just like you can run from California to Vegas in like a couple hours of game-time, or survive without discomfort on one meal a day, it's reasonable to assume that people will find out about those acts you were not actually trying to hide from anybody.
Kilgore Trout
Gyro Captain
I actually thought that both the Karma system and the Reputation system in New Vegas were kind of broken, although Reputation was better than karma as a whole. They should implement both features as New Vegas had them, but improve upon them.
Specifically, I think Reputation should also take the presence or absence of witnesses into account. If I wipe out a group of Legion scouts out in the middle of nowhere, and leave nobody alive to tell the tale, why should I lose reputation with that faction? Who's going to find out it was me who killed them?
On the other hand, if I march into Cottonwood Cove or other faction headquarters and start shooting the place up, that should obviously make me persona non grata with the faction.
In terms of karma, my biggest gripe in NV was that I got "good karma" for killing things like feral ghouls - feral ghouls!!! - which made having even neutral karma a bit of a challenge.
Karma should be largely determined by how you solve quests. But if NPC deaths factor into it, there should be better distinctions between monsters, combatants, and non-combatants. Killing monsters or wild animals should have absolutely zero karmic weight, killing combatants should provide a moderate amount of karmic weight, and killing a non-combatant of any faction should grant you a heavy negative amount of karma (with perhaps some exceptions for very evil non-combatants).
Specifically, I think Reputation should also take the presence or absence of witnesses into account. If I wipe out a group of Legion scouts out in the middle of nowhere, and leave nobody alive to tell the tale, why should I lose reputation with that faction? Who's going to find out it was me who killed them?
On the other hand, if I march into Cottonwood Cove or other faction headquarters and start shooting the place up, that should obviously make me persona non grata with the faction.
In terms of karma, my biggest gripe in NV was that I got "good karma" for killing things like feral ghouls - feral ghouls!!! - which made having even neutral karma a bit of a challenge.
Karma should be largely determined by how you solve quests. But if NPC deaths factor into it, there should be better distinctions between monsters, combatants, and non-combatants. Killing monsters or wild animals should have absolutely zero karmic weight, killing combatants should provide a moderate amount of karmic weight, and killing a non-combatant of any faction should grant you a heavy negative amount of karma (with perhaps some exceptions for very evil non-combatants).
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
The Karma System should be reworked to have a threshold system, like certain actions will only affect it to a certain point, like Stealing 1000 cups shouldn't put me on the same level as someone who kills old ladies for no reason, same with giving water to Hobos, or indirectly (and probably unwittingly) putting Feral Ghouls out of their misery shouldn't make my genocide of a town non important. And take a page out of New Vegas Reputation system and have mixed Karma titles rather than only positive or Negative ones.
They should also put in some "Karma Perks" you acquire by doing certain evil and good actions, ala the Child Killer one but for other things, and they should either give special dialogue options and such. Like shooting a fleeing oponent would give you the "Merciless warrior" perk if you do it enough times, while giving them quarter would give you the "Merciful Warrior" one, the negative one should override the positive one at every point or maybe even create a new perk?
Reputation needs some rework but it's in a good place. Maybe also add Reputation perks you gain by doing certain actions, like saving Kimball shoudlgive you the "Hero of the Nation" perk which would give you discounts, maybe allow you to carry weapons into normally no weapon zones, etc.
They should also put in some "Karma Perks" you acquire by doing certain evil and good actions, ala the Child Killer one but for other things, and they should either give special dialogue options and such. Like shooting a fleeing oponent would give you the "Merciless warrior" perk if you do it enough times, while giving them quarter would give you the "Merciful Warrior" one, the negative one should override the positive one at every point or maybe even create a new perk?
Reputation needs some rework but it's in a good place. Maybe also add Reputation perks you gain by doing certain actions, like saving Kimball shoudlgive you the "Hero of the Nation" perk which would give you discounts, maybe allow you to carry weapons into normally no weapon zones, etc.
Kilgore Trout
Gyro Captain
I like this. At the very least there should be some kind of in game acknowledgement of your preferred fighting/conflict resolution style. This is something that I think Witcher 2 did an okay job with; you would get "attributes" based on how you handled various situations. I think a Fallout style character system could be even more sophisticated with this than the Witcher series, but I'm not holding my breath....
fred2
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
karma system are nutritious for their "brokenness", the more complex they are the easier you can game them, which is why they almost exclusive to Single player games.
I think that Obsidain did a good job with Disposition and Reputation in PoE.
I think that Obsidain did a good job with Disposition and Reputation in PoE.
Oppen
FIXT n°1 fan
Totally agree, but this is way harder to implement, so I'm kind of forgiving of its absence.
Well, tbh you are doing a service to other people transitting the area. IIRC, there was a common route that was nearly infested. I understand it is technically a problem (specially because the game shouldn't guess you are doing it because you are a good guy, rather one that wants to stay alive), but it somewhat makes sense.
Agree. I guess the simplest one would be taking into account who engaged combat, specially for monsters, and make self defense neutral (i.e., a feral ghoul comes to attack you, you don't kill it because "hey, kill the dangerous and bad guy that could kill an innocent bystander" but because "OMG, that piece of shit is attacking me!").
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
What about identity disguises? like in the original Fallouts wearing Power Armor would cause characters you made enemies with not recognize you until you interacted with them, would that be too broken in the new format?
fred2
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
I agree. Although I prefer a less black and white system. Obsidian system for PoE offers more complexity allowing you to be both Benevolent but Aggressive, Cruel but honest etc.. not just good or bad.
Meanwhile the reputation is the same. For example if you kill enough creatures\people you'll be known as nutritious hunter\murdered among that faction..
who engaged combat is one of the easiest things to game. It also penalize people who prefer stealth over guns blazing close quarters Rawwwarrrrr play style.
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Stone Cold Robert House
Mojave Rattlesnake
It would require a lot of specifications to work. Power armor wouldn't be much of a disguise for Caesar's Legion, for example, even though it conceals you completely. It could be an effective disguise to walk among the Brotherhood of Steel... but then it's just the faction armor mechanic we already had. On the other hand, half of the armor in the game covers your whole body and face, like the desert ranger armor. Can we really allow players to walk free with armors they can so easily acquire? The faction armor system is also more balanced in that regard as it's not so easy to get apparel from some groups. Plus if we're accounting for every armor that hides your identity we suddenly have to deal with how each faction would see each armor (ie. the average legionnaire could see riot gear as being NCR ranger gear from distance, etc) which is an even bigger problem and just limits the way people can play the game.
Faction armor just works better in every way. There are a few ways you could refine it: for example, high-ranking members can see through disguises, maybe if you are wearing a matching helmet it decreases their detection distance and you can go a little bit closer. Or maybe have more armors specifically set as disguises. There are a few details that can be added but either way it's a far smoother way to implement disguise in the current format and I'd be happy if they kept it.
Oppen
FIXT n°1 fan
You can play stealth and avoid the killing all along. Also, it wouldn't be necessarily a penalization either, as what I said goes both ways. You don't get negative karma by defending your self, but positive either. Depending on who you kill you will be getting positive or negative karma if you are the one engaging combat. Same for reputation with a given faction.
Moosick
cats
Maybe speech checks, or more rigorous interrogation as to your business from authorities. You have to either fool them, or be identified as a possible match for the wanted posters.
When I think about it, people in the wasteland are either too trusting OR want to blow your brains out on sight.
For example, how is it normal for the NCR to let just anyone wander around camp McCarran without any sort of supervision? A complete stranger can come in and run around their main base not bothered by anyone. I would love it to be different in Fallout 4, people of the wasteland should be a bit more... territorial so to speak.
When you come to some camp the gatekeeper, if they have any, should ask you about your identity, to state your business and then maybe inform the guards to keep an eye on you and restrict your access to many parts of the camp until you become friends with them.
For example, how is it normal for the NCR to let just anyone wander around camp McCarran without any sort of supervision? A complete stranger can come in and run around their main base not bothered by anyone. I would love it to be different in Fallout 4, people of the wasteland should be a bit more... territorial so to speak.
When you come to some camp the gatekeeper, if they have any, should ask you about your identity, to state your business and then maybe inform the guards to keep an eye on you and restrict your access to many parts of the camp until you become friends with them.
DustyTraveller
First time out of the vault
Actually Oblivion and later games do take witnesses into account.
They just had a minor bug in that animals were considered witnesses too.
I think they found and fixed that bug some time after FO3.