Elite Riot Armor, Joshua's or Armor of the 87th Tribe?

[Walpknut]

It's the only piece of it's kind, it's not given to regular troops, they have their Heav Troopers in Power Armor, it doesn't have anything to do with corruption, some guy gets a suit of experimental Power armor from the Sierra Army Depot because he is a colonel in charge of guarding the Long 15 and he decides to adorn it with paint and a Bear head Trophy. And wether people would really use combat-capable armor as a showpiece during a War doesn't have anythign to do with the topic at all.

 

[DevilTakeMe]

It's the only piece of it's kind, it's not given to regular troops, they have their Heav Troopers in Power Armor, it doesn't have anything to do with corruption, some guy gets a suit of experimental Power armor from the Sierra Army Depot because he is a colonel in charge of guarding the Long 15 and he decides to adorn it with paint and a Bear head Trophy. And wether people would really use combat-capable armor as a showpiece during a War doesn't have anythign to do with the topic at all.

The Heavy Troopers wear Salvaged Power Armor, which has the servos stripped out so it's just "Heavy Armor" rather than "Power Armor."

Meaning the Salvaged stuff doesn't work as intended and does not give a strength bonus.

The entire discussion has been about whether or not painting a piece of military armor that's being fielded (regardless of whether or not it's on the front line) is a good idea or not.

But if you want to move this back on track, the Salvaged Power Armor doesn't perform as well as NCR Ranger Combat Armor, and is substandard to Elite Riot Armor.

 

[brfritos]

But if you want to move this back on track, the Salvaged Power Armor doesn't perform as well as NCR Ranger Combat Armor, and is substandard to Elite Riot Armor.

You know, I was playing with LR one more time for the "loot/lulz" and one hell of a combination is the Courier Duster (called 'Blackjack') + armor implant + Marked beast face helmet.

If you are a fan of light armor this will give you 20 DT, wich is pretty good, and only 1% less critical chance than the Elite Riot.
You can also wear glasses under the mask*, so you can use the Lucky Shades or better yet, Mobius glasses (+10 explosives +2 INT).
With Light Touch perk this is one hell of a setup.


*PS: Don't ask me how this is even possible.

PS2: Since we are in the "for the lulz" department, I think the riot armor with marked beast face helmet is much more cool than the regular ranger/riot helmet

 

[nemo00]

First about the structuring, I’l try to make my replies a little more readable. At least nobody bitched about my spelling. Now sorry about the time it took to produce it, but as you can see it is quite large, and it took a few days to produce so please suffer a little bit with me…..Oh and we still on topic, we just like to write lenghty arguments....which cover a lot of points.

Second, again I admit that most of your points are valid and in a certain context are entirely correct. Also you convinced me of the proximity of the NCR camp to the battlefield, simply because I am not that familiar with US geography (I am not from the US ), so I cannot combat any of your arguments, which in the form that you presented seem to add up.

So the arguments regarding the power armor you presented are entirely valid if you take them separately, but if you mix them together, and put them into context of the fallout setting, they do present more than a few attack angles to speak in military terms, and also can be used against each other in one case at least.
On the issue of camouflage:

I admit (and in fact I never denied it) that it is very important and in today’s context maybe one of the most important tactical assets which is also proved by its further development in the form of stealth (you can’t hit what you can’t see), so all of your arguments and examples are valid and right.

Also I did not state that power armor is invulnerable (nothing is). I said that it should make you almost invulnerable as the result of its combined advantages, not only the thickness of the material it is made of. These advantages are: it is immune up to a certain degree to small arms fire, and the fragmentation effect of grenades (it can take a huge amount of damage, which eventually will degrade it but if you have the necessary supply lines can be repaired) so it defeats infantry. It is very mobile (I completely agree with your definition of mobility, which is not only the ability to get out of the way but also being able to run to cover if you need it), but also as I stated it is hard to lock on to. It should have a small radar signature, I believe it also has a small heat signature, because of the internal cooling system; (the evidence for this is presented in the dialog options when you see power armor for the first time ever in a fallout setting, asking the brotherhood paladin if he is not hot in that big ass suit, and he responds that he is not as the suit is cooled) so it can defeat tanks or other forms of mechanized equipment. In a certain point of view you R right, the suit is camouflaged even if it is not painted green.

BUT this camouflage actually also reinforces my argument.

Iff you engage a mechanized unit like a tank platoon, they
will have a very hard time to lock on so you can charge right into them of course not in a suicidal way, but using the terrain as cover and flanking them like cavalry (concentrated fire from a tank platoon even if fired blindly will eventually get you and a sabot round will simply obliterate a power armor, it’s just a matter of statistics, heck maybe HEAT too), having all of the advantages of the infantry and non of the drawbacks.

In case of a Chinese infantry platoon against a power armor squad…..one on one, no air or artillery support, or dedicated sniper support (I do not know if the Soviets, or the Chinese had something that equals the barret 50 cal. sniper, which I believe it fatal for a power armor, and I seriously doubt it that the Chinese had gauss rifles in mass even if there is a minigun version of it….because if they did than the US would have had a very hard time winning), both of them using just their standard equipment, let’s analyze a bit.

Chinese equipment, Light machine guns, AK rifles, frag grenades, and maybe the occasional rpgs, and some electronic enhancements maybe (but I seriously doubt it), limited armor.

Us power armor squad: energy weapons, miniguns, rocket launchers combined with advanced electronics (power armor has to have some even if not included in game play, the artwork does provide as with some clues, like assisted targeting, and If we take a leap of fate maybe some form of early warning system for incoming rpg’s so it will be much harder to score a direct hit, there is also some indication of these in the games) no short term fatigue, ability to carry much more ammunition. To all of this we have to add the psychological impact of power armor, which is huge. Well I would bet that in 90% of the cases the power armor squad would obliterate the Chinese platoon without taking major losses, just by charging directly using shock tactics, because a Chinese platoon would not have the ability to effectively counter it. Small would be useless, and firing RPG means exposing yourself and also you have to aim ( I believe that only a direct hit could take a power armor out), which leaves time for the power armor squad using targeting equipment to take you out. Then there is the problem of the hail of continuous fire coming from the squad that is using at least light machineguns (having no ammunition shortage, being able to carry a huge amount of it), which makes coming out of cover and firing RPG’s very dicey. Of course there is that 10% of cases in which due to the leadership and tactical abilities of a Chinese officer maybe they would win but not without taking huge losses. In this case camo is irrelevant a direct charge would be much more effective and not that long. There is also another indirect proof that the US could have relied on shock tactics, in the form of combat drugs. These make you hyper aggressive, just the mind set needed for a charge, but are not exactly famous for making you thing strait, a trait that is kinda necesraty for any reasoning process. Again in this case camo is irrelevant. It is all about the enemy that you fight.

Ornate power armor, and the wasteland setting

Iff we take into consideration the context of the wasteland, power armor would be a lethal tool and in the right context almost invulnerable and could be used as something to draw fire. Yes as I also pointed out, and you underlined it, eventually it will break down and it is able to take only a limited amount of damage. We can see destroyed units in the wasteland but we don’t know the context in which they were damaged, or the condition in which they were, how long where they out in the field (in FNV they were scouts so essentially for a long time, in F3, well they did have limited resources, and they faced super mutants, which essentially is the ultimate frontline solider), before they got damaged.
In case of drawing fire it is all about the calculated risk. You are entirely right using yourself to draw fire is suicidal, but a colonel or a general ordering troops to draw fire, being fully aware of the huge amount of losses, only to draw attention from a main, and yes hidden or camouflaged force to knock out the opponent, or simply to wear down the opponent, which has some kind of perceived tactical flaw which numbers can overcome, is called battlefield tactics. Proof of these can be found exactly in those wars that you cited for exemplifying shock tactics. It took a hell of a lot of psychological pressure to advance steadily against a hail of bullets or even canon fire without taking cover BUT it actually took place. When I say psychological pressure I mean group pressure, and the threat of being shot by the commanding officer in case of fleeing. Essentially for more than 3000 years this was the way in which wars were fought, and they didn’t use camouflage or anything (ok advancing into bullet fire only in the last 300, before that into a wall of shields and spears). Why did it change? Mechanized warfare, because the offensive capabilities of a single unit became so great that the losses in manpower inflicted to other side were too great to be replaced effectively (ex: World War I, the powers with the better resupplying capabilities won), and this was the moment in which camo was widely adopted in western military thinking

Now let’s consider the a wasteland setting. NCR vs. Legion, Hoover dam.

NCR: equipment, power armor T1d (let’s assume in medium working condition, still having most of its protective properties against small arms fire and, and some of the targeting assistance) light machineguns, supported by veteran rangers with sniper rifles, and light NCR troops adequately trained with good medium ranged capacity. Oliver even he is dumb from certain points of view, he has some insight about the effectiveness of power armor
Legion: equipment: as Boon said, crimson sportswear (or in case of some veteran troops some armor plating yes I know that some armor has power armor parts that may come from NCR, but they are only a few, ad could be the case of good legion ambush tactics with dozen or so legionnaires against an overconfident squad that had maybe one heavy trooper), some ranged capabilities, mostly submachine guns (veteran troops do have assault rifles but they are in the back), but mostly mêlée weapons, and superior hand to hand combat capabilities, and the psychological advantage of group pressure. No evidence at all of any anti armor capacities, not even a rocket launcher, or any other heavy weapons as a matter of fact (they did try to equip themselves with grenade launchers b). Tactics: rushing the enemy eliminating the advantage of range where they can have the upper hand in close quarter combat (which could be effective against not so much indoctrinated NCR regulars wearing light armor)

How to beat the legion effectively in a space like Hoover dam: turning their strength into weakness. Provoking them into a charge against massed NCR heavy troops using power armor and light machineguns. Charging troops would be cut down the same way I World War troops did. Those that eventually get close enough, can’t really rely on hand to hand combat, and mêlée weapons against power armor are essentially useless (maybe power fists to a certain degree……but I seriously doubt it) unless you have light sabers…… You also have to consider also the sniper support, which is deadly. Essentially you could use heavy troops as in modern warfare when you use a tank to draw fire having infantry behind it like or as in the case of SWAT (when the probability of your mobile cover being taken out by enemy fire is small). Against the legion in this particular situation for the duration of the battle power armor is essentially invulnerable. So the color of the armor in this case would be irrelevant or would have a more important tactical advantage than camo. Again history proves it power armor or not, you still have to have some guts to advance against a charging enemy. In these types of scenarios the more visible the leader the more confidence he projects towards troops. Look at the real Caesar, or Alexander the Great, or Hannibal (essentially leaders became less visible only when sniping came into practice). In this case an ornate plate of armor becomes the symbol of that leader’s prowess in combat and if he is a good combatant it also transmits the message that I am here and there is no reason to fear. Yes I know that these are medieval or ancient tactics, but in a wasteland setting, where the calculated risk is low, they could be effective,
Now in the case of Brotherhood against NCR, In most of the cases, it was not exactly the limitation of power armor that was called in question but the tactical capabilities of the organization. In case of the solar plant, well Elijah was just plain crazy, from what I could deduce he ordered his troops not to go on the offensive, essentially cutting in half the effectiveness of the armors, even so, there were 8 NCR troops against 1 Brotherood, and they did manage to defend their positions. But as you said there is only that much of punishment any equipment can take (50 cal snipers more exactly) and NCR did have access to advanced energy equipment. Still we don’t know how many brotherhood soldiers died, and the exact circumstances of their death (suit failure, secondary trauma……hunger, thirst, demoralization from loss of friends, as they were a pretty tight group and didn’t have the numbers). Essentially no matter how effective a system is, it is still limited by the man inside it. The Brotherhoods main problem is actually their overconfidence in their suits and technology, and not evaluating realistically their opponent which in the case of NCR has a number of advantages: strength in numbers, and considering the circumstances of the fallout setting, well equipped and also the strategic know how. This last point is the Achilles heel of the brotherhood, as they are essentially high tech scavengers, most of their engagements being against poorly equipped tribals against whom power armor is essentially invulnerable and the first real war they had they lost, because of poor strategic planning and lack of resources (ok they did blow up the gold reserves but that is only one victory, and they lost the war). They can’t make new power armors….so essentially they parade in 200 years old constantly used equipment which does not fare well against a foe like NCR, but in the same time NCR can take the same equipment learn how to use it, they being more adaptable, and combine it with the rest of their troops and make a deadly cocktail, that is essentially invulnerable in a tactical situation against a band of organized tribals like the legion..

So the basic points are the invulnerability of the power armor is a question of context, and in the context of NCR against Legion an ornate suit, in the situations I described above, could make sense.

 

[Walpknut]

I prefer Light ot Medium armor, I really hate using Power Armor (even in FO2 I didn't like having to use it) I don't have Lonesoem Road yet, nor do I have Old World Blues, so out of the ones mentioned I would probably continue using the Joshua Graham Armor, or the basic Riot Gear, mayeb the Elite one, the others seem too bulky and heavy. Well that si with my Principal character. I might use the Sierra Power Armor a lot with my Legion character (low END). Looking at the armors included in LR, the Marked Beast Face Helmet looks pretty kickass.

 

[DevilTakeMe]

I. The Chinese and US power armor.

The Chinese had to have some kind of Gauss weapons, in order for them to eventually develop a 'minigun' out of them. A few gauss rifles here and there isn't out of the question. But no, I do not think they had them in any significant numbers.

The tactics by the US against the Chinese would as they are described would work, if and only if the power armor was able to close on the Chinese positions quickly enough for the shock tactics.

Shock tactics require the ability to strike at targets with enough firepower to overwhelm the defense and break through. They require that the defender not be mobile enough to counter the attack. Either they're confident enough to rebuff the attack and hold the line or they are defending a fixed position.

This requires evasion techniques (such as camouflage, or at least, a proper paint scheme) or a high degree of speed and mobility that would allow the units to close within striking distance before the Chinese could regroup, reinforce their position, or reposition entirely to counteract the assault.

The Rohr battalion in World War 1 emphasized speed over armor. It was better to have the speed to get in close and have the firepower to kill the enemy before they had the opportunity to kill you.

German Blitzkrieg - when invading France, the German army was facing off against one of the best defended borders in all of Europe with the Maginot line. The problem was this line did not cover all the routes into France all that well, and the Germans simply went around the strongest fortifications by blowing through the weak spots on the Belgian border.

What power armor does not have is that kind of speed or mobility. While on foot, they have to somehow close the distance in order for their weapons to be effective before the enemy can detect them and bring their heavier weapons around to attack them.

This is unlike the earlier examples from the Civil War and before, when heavy weapons that could be used effectively on troop formations did not yet really exist. Weapons like the Gatling gun came out at the end of the Civil War, and led to trench warfare, which started the change away from older tactics that had worked for thousands of years before.

The Chinese in the Anchorage Invasion would have had Bombers, artillery (even if just cannons taken from the US positions), rockets, missiles, etc. The heavy weapons, with their greater range and their greater potency, doesn't even need to be a direct hit against armor or infantry. Those weapons also have much better accuracy and efficiency than earlier wars and can be turned on incoming troop formations.

Indeed, Power armor has to have a way of going undetected just long enough for them to put their heavy weapons and possibly that armor into proper use (or as you describe that would be used). They don't have the speed or mobility to get within range fast enough, so they have to rely on evasion techniques like camouflage, concealment, and cover.

The idea that power armor is simply there to draw attention again only works if the armor is within common visual range and it's past the time for identification of targets during the chaos of the battle itself.

Tagaziel's arguments that range has nothing to do with it again only works with people who aren't using scopes or binoculars (or have very, very good eyes). But who are scouting the area, watching for incoming assaults, etc. etc.? It's usually guys with scopes and binoculars. Snipers on the watch usually have camouflage and if we're to believe the Anchorage simulation - they have snipers with stealth suits and scoped sniper rifles that make them invisible and allow them to observe virtually undetected.

And the Chinese have radios, so they can give artillery a target while it's on the move. It's a simple understanding.

II. Power armor and the Wasteland

A. The Brotherhood

The Brotherhood, as Tagaziel has explained, that because they are a successor of a Military division, they are trained in warfare as prescribed by the Pre-War United States government, which would include the tactics and strategies listed above, modified by their circumstances.

The problem is that the circumstances only went so far as the changes made before the Codex was created. We don't know the exact context of the Codex, only what it has driven the Brotherhood to do, and also what has partially made the Brotherhood inflexible.

The War between the NCR and the Brotherhood lasted awhile, long enough for Colonel Moore to serve Four Tours of Duty. A Tour of Duty can last six months or up to four years, so it can be expected to have lasted between two and sixteen years - a good while.

The T-51b that the Brotherhood wear in the Mojave is notably stripped of its paint, and is an all light colored metal. Lacking paint to make it fit into the desert environment, a light color like they're wearing is a bit more subtle than the green tinge the armor would normally have.

That's plenty of time to learn at least how the Brotherhood fielded power armor, learn their tactics, adopt and adapt at least some of these tactics and strategies as the NCR discovered power armor of their own.

B. The Legion And the NCR

The Legion does wear highly visible armor, because they're making themselves seen - that's the point, they are evoking an ancient culture and mindset, the NCR are patterned after more modern thinking. The Legion officers were sniped because of that and that led to the NCR victory at the First Battle of Hoover Dam.

General Oliver intends to do just that: provoke the Legion into a stand-up fight where the NCR's superior firepower and armor should win the day. Heavy troopers up front, with NCR Veteran Rangers sniping officers as they had during the First Battle of Hoover Dam.

Mind you, the Centurion's armor is almost as effective as the Salvaged Power Armor the Heavy Troopers wear. They even incorporate a few pieces of power armor. The difference is that Centurions make for much better targets.

The problem is that Lanius intends to deny the NCR's strengths, and turn their strength into a weakness because he learned from the First Battle of Hoover Dam. He's going to use what artillery he has to bombard the NCR's cannons and the sniper positions on top of the Dam. Many of the Legion at the Dam are also armed with the .50 BMG antimaterial rifles that can do damage to the power armor to snipe at them in return. He's also planning to attack under the Dam, down below where the sniper fire and the heavy weapons are nullified by close quarters encounters - the Legion's strength.

You would think the Heavy Weapons troopers would have an advantage, given the enclosed space, but ask anyone involved in CQB that you'd rather have more personal weapons like pistols and submachine guns, shotguns, etc. in a close fight rather than a big heavy weapon, even like a standard assault rifle, because you can't really maneuver a big weapon inside a tight space.

The Legion, however, pride themselves on their melee weapons, which include machetes, axes, and more primitive melee weapons, but also include chainsaws and thermic lances, which are much more advanced and most likely capable of punching through the advanced armor.

The Heavy armor weighs the NCR troopers down, and makes them vulnerable - like the knights of old who were pulled off their horses and then stabbed through their armor, or even had their armor pulled off on the field so they could be killed.

 

[brfritos]

I prefer Light ot Medium armor, I really hate using Power Armor (even in FO2 I didn't like having to use it) I don't have Lonesoem Road yet, nor do I have Old World Blues, so out of the ones mentioned I would probably continue using the Joshua Graham Armor, or the basic Riot Gear, mayeb the Elite one, the others seem too bulky and heavy. Well that si with my Principal character. I might use the Sierra Power Armor a lot with my Legion character (low END). Looking at the armors included in LR, the Marked Beast Face Helmet looks pretty kickass.

I HATE Power Armor too, never like it. Bulky, heavy and slow you down like a turtle.
Even medium armor sometimes get it on my nerves, running with a rifle on your hands while wearing medium armor has a tremendous impact on your speed.

It's funny that for a low END build like your Legion courier, the best duster is...the NCR one!!!
+25lbs and +1 END

That's what I like in FNV/F1/F2, the irony is overwhelming sometimes.

 

[TorontoReign]

Take that dicussion to messenger or to another thread, what does it have to do with which Armor is better? The Scorched Sierra Power Armor is colorful and full of ornaments because it was worn by a Showoff Colonel that wouldn't have to go into direct conflict that woudl require him to use camuflage.

It's just a discussion.

That showoff colonel is wasting a valuable resource of functional power armor when people are being sent into war, many of whom are under-equipped as it is.

Yes, the NCR is corrupt, we know, but we're talking about whether people would really use combat-capable armor as a showpiece during a War.

I think the point he is trying to make is that the thread has been derailed into a very interesting debate that should have it's own thread perhaps, but what the hell do I know?

Poor Op just wants to know what armor is good !!!!

 

[Walpknut]

Yes, that's why I am saying, that discussion has no relation to the topic, and it's fillling most of the pages, maybe you should make a specific thread for it, it kind of becomes spam.

 

[nemo00]

Ok I admit that the discussion has derailed from the original topic, but let’s face it (and I don’t want to insult anybody) in my opinion was just not that interesting but for the sake of order i’l answer the original question: I prefer the elite riot armor, my characters have usually high stealth, and use sniper rifles to great efficiency, and it’s helmet does have the sneak sight, which helps me during night (that is how I wiped out Cotton Cove), but if I really want to sneak assault someone I use the elite riot armor with the hazmat suit helmet (from the Big Empty) which has night vision (and it is not that ugly, but is maybe just my opinion). I don’t really use the 87’th tribe armor, because if I want to use a full plate armor and not feel out of place I would simply play Baldur’s Gate or Neverwinter Nights.

Anyway if we take the time to read the tread, we can conclude that 90% of it’s space is actually taken up by the debate that started from the sierra power armor (and also it was encouraged a couple times by quite a few senior members), so it would be actually more logical to rename the thread (although I don’t know if this would be in line with the general forum rules). And please let me be a little bit biased, but the argument into which it transformed is a little bit more intellectually challenging.

Now back to the whole power armor, visibility, utility, problem…
In response to Devils remarks, you are entirely right if you take into consideration a complete battlefield setting, with all of the tactical assets of a modern battlefield (artillery, aircover,). In these conditions power armor would be an extremely important strategic and tactical asset but you couldn’t rely entirely on it because as you said they would need to close the distance (but still you have to consider that infantry can be quite fast taking into consideration wartime conditions and another important factor is that fatigue would be mitigated, so with the T-51B which does not limit your agility, theoretically you could run at top human speed for a much longer time than regular troops)

That is why the situation exemplified by me is more of a controlled experiment without including any other form of warfare (air, armored, or artillery support), just to better illustrate the massive advantage a power armor has in individual solider against individual solider type of combat in which the psychological impact of visibility is more useful than the ability to hide. However in modern warfare or as a matter of fact in any type of warfare, JUST to use it to draw attention, would be a waste and irresponsible, as you wouldn’t take advantage of the multiple tactical advantages it has. It would be kinda similar to what the Germans did with the Messerschmit 262 using it as a dive bomber, instead of an interceptor.

Now on the Brotherhood against NCR. I am not familiar with what the codex is supposed to contain, but I can use the historic and psychological context. Now let me just state it from the start that I believe that the Western Brotherhood faces an imminent collapse as a matter of fact the only way the organization could survive is by adopting the Midwestern Brotherhoods views. Now from the games we can actually see the use of types of strategic and tactical attitudes, one is the overconfident direct warfare, for which (power armor or not) they simply don’t have the resources and manpower (which is extremely limited and without genetic engineering they would be a bunch of inbred idiots). Also there is just so many times you could refurbish power armor. If you can’t build new ones, the number of heavy infantry that you could deploy is actually limited by the number of suits you have. Loosing even one of them would be quite a blow and without them the Brotherhood is not much better than the NCR. So a war of attrition is something you would definitely loose, which they did. The second tactic they use is hiding, as they did in the case of the Enclave, or in the Mohave against the NCR. So they fall from one extreme to another….which doesn’t say too much about their strategically thinking (underestimating or overestimating your enemy, is a major flaw in any military thinking).

NCR versus Legion.

In this case, as presented in the story in a set by piece execution battle a visible power armor is better as, it would draw fire (as the legion would try to take them out) but in the same time also returning constant machinegun fire, against a charging an enemy using shock tactics which would be equal to ….let’s say the Germans attacking the Maginot line directly.

To this you also have to add the fact that the legion greenhorns, who would be in the first line, don’t really have advanced equipment (not that the legion would rely too much on ethnology in the first place…..), and they would be absolutely massacred when charging into a hail of light machinegun fire.

And that the officers who are in the back have more advanced equipment……like rippers or chainsaws….well that is what the snipers are therefore. Even if they would manage to get close enough to use chainsaws and rippers….those were not exactly designed for cutting power armor (they would make a lot of noise but I seriously doubt they would cut trough power armor, so as I said before until I see legion soldiers with light sabers, in 95% of the time mêlée attack against power armor is suicide). Also the reason for which only the veteran legionaries have advanced equipment is because of the reduced number of these, so they are issued to people who are less likely to lose them by getting themselves killed.

And about legion using antimateriel rifles….well first I’ve been to the fort a couple of times killed every last piece of slaver trash, but I have yet to see an animateriel rifle used against me. Even if there are, I suspect that they are put there more for leveling purposes, as everything in the legion mentality as told in the story suggest that they despise that type of warfare a belief which is at the core of their very being. And the single artillery piece they have…well it’s not really working, they would like you to fix it……
Now centurion armor is very hodge podge (as designed in the game, and I am not talking about game play settings and stats) and leaves enough space for bullets to penetrate. (I did take out the idiot from Cotton Wood with one sniper round to the head from the hills opposite the camp) Also, using them dispersed as the legion does, would not make so much of a difference. Exactly like in the case of French and British in the first year of World War II, when they used tanks mixed with infantry, against Germans who used tanks as a single force. It is the same thing here. Legion issues slightly advanced equipment only to elite soldiers who are dispersed in the back of the lines, and can be picked off, against NCR who uses advanced equipment in mass issued to more regular troops, in the first line, so they can multiply with numbers the advantage of the equipment. And that is why Graham lost, because he wasn’t flexible, he knew only troop movement tactics and couldn’t adapt to the changing battlefield conditions, and that is why Lanius is much better, as you exemplified.

Now there is only one problem that I have with the whole setting, and it was stated also in another topic on this forum. We can see that the NCR has access to quite a few vertibirds (as we can see in the base that you are supposed to nuke at the end of Lonesome Road) which they can fly, so WHY THE FUCK DON’T THEY JUST BOMB THE SHIT OUT OF THE FORT? I mean the one vertibird painted BRIHGT YELLOW, WITH TIGERSTRIPES AND RED NEON LIGHTS ON IT could be more effective than the whole platoon of heavy troopers. The legion couldn’t do shit against them.

Now sorry for the late reply, but I do have to work, and also write my thesis in the same time

 

[DevilTakeMe]

Now back to the whole power armor, visibility, utility, problem…

In response to Devils remarks, you are entirely right if you take into consideration a complete battlefield setting, with all of the tactical assets of a modern battlefield (artillery, aircover,). In these conditions power armor would be an extremely important strategic and tactical asset but you couldn’t rely entirely on it because as you said they would need to close the distance (but still you have to consider that infantry can be quite fast taking into consideration wartime conditions and another important factor is that fatigue would be mitigated, so with the T-51B which does not limit your agility, theoretically you could run at top human speed for a much longer time than regular troops)

Human foot speed is not very fast at all. That's why cavalry was developed as well as vehicles were integrated. Moving on foot is simply relegated to areas where larger vehicles cannot access, and such conditions tend to be very slow going.

This includes trench warfare or urban warfare, with room-to-room operations, etc. And T-51b would again, have an advantage in protection and firepower, but limited mobility because of speed and size.

That is why the situation exemplified by me is more of a controlled experiment without including any other form of warfare (air, armored, or artillery support), just to better illustrate the massive advantage a power armor has in individual solider against individual solider type of combat in which the psychological impact of visibility is more useful than the ability to hide. However in modern warfare or as a matter of fact in any type of warfare, JUST to use it to draw attention, would be a waste and irresponsible, as you wouldn’t take advantage of the multiple tactical advantages it has. It would be kinda similar to what the Germans did with the Messerschmit 262 using it as a dive bomber, instead of an interceptor.

The entire discussion has simply been whether or not it was a good idea to dress up a set of power armor with gaudy colors because the power armor would "draw attention" and let the wearer take the brunt of a short range burst of fire from small arms, despite all evidence that such thinking is long outdated and has no place on a more modern battlefield.

Regardless of whether or not it's a controlled experiment, or a single colonel's vanity project of a suit of armor, the idea is that it's a silly notion with no practical application for a functioning suit of power armor, which continues to be rare now that the NCR is cannibalizing suits of T-45d just to make the "armor" useful.

NCR versus Legion.

In this case, as presented in the story in a set by piece execution battle a visible power armor is better as, it would draw fire (as the legion would try to take them out) but in the same time also returning constant machinegun fire, against a charging an enemy using shock tactics which would be equal to ….let’s say the Germans attacking the Maginot line directly.

The problem is that Oliver is not that smart. Where are all the NCR heavy troopers up top? Nowhere to be found up top, where they would be actually useful in such a position.

To this you also have to add the fact that the legion greenhorns, who would be in the first line, don’t really have advanced equipment (not that the legion would rely too much on ethnology in the first place…..), and they would be absolutely massacred when charging into a hail of light machinegun fire.

This assumes that Oliver would put light machine gun fire up near the front line to fire upon incoming recruit legionaires.

Instead, the troops sent to handle the initial waves of Legion are the rank-and-file NCR troops with their semi-automatic M-16 style rifles with the wooden stocks, or weapons of similar quality. Those guns don't even have burst or auto-fire.

Oliver, unfortunately, places his best troops with heavier weapons closer to himself, in fortified positions with energy shields underneath the Dam near his own offices, rather than anywhere more vital to holding the dam. Notably, there are just two heavy troopers guarding the control room of the Dam or in the Hoover Dam Visitors Center. Any others found before Oliver are few and far between.

Assuming the Legion playthrough, by the time the Courier reaches Oliver, the Legion already has control of the Dam, Oliver is simply holed up below and in a corner of the structure, with nowhere to go but his "escape route." This is where there are several heavy troopers and veteran rangers.

And that the officers who are in the back have more advanced equipment……like rippers or chainsaws….well that is what the snipers are therefore. Even if they would manage to get close enough to use chainsaws and rippers….those were not exactly designed for cutting power armor (they would make a lot of noise but I seriously doubt they would cut trough power armor, so as I said before until I see legion soldiers with light sabers, in 95% of the time mêlée attack against power armor is suicide). Also the reason for which only the veteran legionaries have advanced equipment is because of the reduced number of these, so they are issued to people who are less likely to lose them by getting themselves killed.

Two things.

One, Veteran Legionaries are just like Veteran Rangers and NCR heavy troopers - they have the best gear because they're experienced and less likely to get themselves killed. It's actually the same on both sides in that regard.

Two, regarding chainsaws and rippers:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joIhS7_svUg[/youtube]

Fallout's rippers are more advanced, weaponized chainsaws than the one in the video. And the guy in the video is making a precision cut. On the field, they would obviously not be doing so, being able to cut through without the same kind of care. And seeing that such an item can tear through at least some armor, the soft flesh underneath has no chance.

So yes, I think chainsaws and rippers can cut through power armor.

And about legion using antimateriel rifles….well first I’ve been to the fort a couple of times killed every last piece of slaver trash, but I have yet to see an animateriel rifle used against me. Even if there are, I suspect that they are put there more for leveling purposes, as everything in the legion mentality as told in the story suggest that they despise that type of warfare a belief which is at the core of their very being. And the single artillery piece they have…well it’s not really working, they would like you to fix it……

The Legion destroys the NCR artillery at the beginning of the battle of Hoover Dam regardless if you retrieve the replacement part for the howitzer by Caesar's Tent.

The Legion uses Antimaterial rifles. You can call it Gameplay and Story Segregation whether they are equipped with them during the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, but the fact is that they have access to them.

Now centurion armor is very hodge podge (as designed in the game, and I am not talking about game play settings and stats) and leaves enough space for bullets to penetrate.

The Salvaged Power armor the Heavy Troopers wear is notably missing several pieces from the full T-45d armor, exposing certain parts of the body as well.

And again, while you might think it was easy to kill Aurelius of Phoenix at Cottonwood Cove, it's just as easy to kill power armored troopers in-game with a single well-placed shot with something less than an Anti-material rifle.

Now there is only one problem that I have with the whole setting, and it was stated also in another topic on this forum. We can see that the NCR has access to quite a few vertibirds (as we can see in the base that you are supposed to nuke at the end of Lonesome Road) which they can fly, so WHY THE FUCK DON’T THEY JUST BOMB THE SHIT OUT OF THE FORT? I mean the one vertibird painted BRIHGT YELLOW, WITH TIGERSTRIPES AND RED NEON LIGHTS ON IT could be more effective than the whole platoon of heavy troopers. The legion couldn’t do shit against them.

There's several possible explanations for the Vertibirds not being able to be used for bombing runs on the Legion. None of which really need to be discussed here.

What you should really be asking is why the Boomers do not do the same? The Boomers can be made loyal to the Courier, rather than any faction the Courier might serve, and the Boomers have no real compunction about firebombing "innocents" after using artillery to kill or dissuade all kinds of parties away from Nellis.

 

[nemo00]

Regarding human foot speed.

Even though your arguments are valid again, . Still there are a number of factors that you have to consider. The development of cavalry is not that much related to increasing the speed of a standing army as you would believe (well maybe except the Mongols, or Huns,) but to their tactical usefulness on the battlefield. Knights could indeed outrun and outflank an enemy force, but their main assets were increased fatigue resistance, sheer mass that could crush trough defenses maintaining maneuverability compared to formation of men (especially in case of tight formations like the ones used by Romans or Greeks). For most of human history speed of an army was measured by the marching speed of men. (Napoleon was the absolute genius of forced marches). Also in wartime the average speed of an army advance against an enemy did not really change until quite recent (meaning after the Worl War II) mainly because the other guy is trying to stop your advance at any cost. Advancing 30 miles per day is not that speedy. In other words advancing 40 miles which in case of a person with a regular car would take about an hour, for an army in wartime conditions it could take a week, and actually if your enemy is as strong as you, it could be even more and end up in trench warfare where speed doesn’t mean shit.

So in my opinion the main advantage of the introduction of vehicles in warfare is not so much their speed (in the same time it is not something that should be neglected), but their ability to get troops to the front lines without fatiguing them as there is quite a difference between fighting after you marched 60 miles or fighting after you were transported via truck, train, plain.
In an engagement maneuverability is much more important than sheer speed and in such conditions where a vehicle driver can’t actually push the paddle to the mettle, a solider with power armor running at full speed, without fatiguing can advance as fast as a vehicle ( i would like to underline that I said "advance" and not go as fast as a vehicle).

Also you are right that in the context of modern battlefield dressing up nicely and drawing fire can be considered outdated. It is outdated because the enemy fire can actually take out the thing behind which you are taking cover (armor, shield or vehicle). When the risk of the object that is covering you (tank, apc, power armor) being taken out is low (calculated risk) using it to draw fire is not outdated at all (SWAT behind an assault vehicle, or even a squad advancing in an urban area behind an APC, even if the possibility of the APC being taken out in a modern battlefield is quite large).Of course that they are camouflaged as that is not their main purpose but even then SWAT assault vehicles are or were painted blue because in their case camo is irrelevant.

Then again the wasteland is not exactly what you would consider a very modern setting even if it is in the future and even if the NCR is modeled after a modern state “modeld” being the key word. There is plenty of room for so called outdated thinking as an ornate piece of equipment. As regarding the colonel, we don’t exactly know if he is coming or going javascript:emoticon('') or of his battlefield experience. He could be on his way to Hoover Dam and he might want to participate in the battle, where his armor, colored as it is can be a rallying point and morale booster for the troops. Please don’t argue that modern colonels do not really go into the heat of the battle as this is not a modern battlefield, the enemy they are facing is not exactly a high tech, and there is plenty of room in the wasteland setting to combine human wartime behavior from all of history, regardless after which prewar state the NCR or the Legion is modeled after.

Legion vs NCR…

Now I admit from the start that my knowledge of the legion is somewhat limited, because I simply can’t make myself side with a faction that supports slavery even in a fictional universe (I did however speak with Caesar and some of his commanders before eliminating them), but I could say that when the legion attacks is very much of a surprise attack in which Oliver didn’t have time to organize. Anyway Oliver should have some strategic and tactical abilities as he did lead from what I understood from Hanlon the first battle, but on the other hand I also have serious doubts about Oliver’s tactical and strategic thinking. Then again the battle of Hoover Dam, is not a typical battle in which the NCR is attacking.

Regarding power armor and chainsaws…..

Well I can clearly see that the chainsaw is cutting though metal, but until you can show me a chainsaw cutting to an M1A2 Abrams, let me be a little skeptical. Regarding the ripper…well in my opinion is nothing more than an advanced bread cutter. It would be effective in street fights where there is no armor present, ok maybe is effective against Kevlar.

Now rangers against veteran legionaries.

There is a huge difference in the way they are used…. As portrayed in the story and also by making parallels with Ainchent Rome, veteran legionaries were used mixed in with regular troops, or in the case of centurions there was one of them commanding a certain number of legionaries, one of their purpose being to stop the inexperienced troops from fleeing. You would never see just a squad of centurions, or a squad just of veteran legionnaires.

Rangers are an entirely different thing; they are very much like SEALS, or SAS. And I believe that I don’t have to explain the process of their selections based on your family background that you have presented in your debate with Tagaziel, so even an entry level Ranger should be as tough as a veteran legionaire.

They are usually used in groups and even their basic gear is pretty good. As in the modern world you don't mix SEALS with regular troops. Hell you don't mix modern rangers with regular troops. I know that you could use my arguments about outdated thinking to say that they could have used them mixed with troops, but there is actual proof in the game play that Rangers were used as i described above, In the case of the designer Power armor there is no counter argument in the story setting that would undercut it's posiblity.


P.S Maan this is turning into a "Greedo shot first" kinda thing but from my point of view it is actually fun.....

 

[DevilTakeMe]

Regarding human foot speed.

Even though your arguments are valid again, . Still there are a number of factors that you have to consider. The development of cavalry is not that much related to increasing the speed of a standing army as you would believe (well maybe except the Mongols, or Huns,) but to their tactical usefulness on the battlefield. Knights could indeed outrun and outflank an enemy force, but their main assets were increased fatigue resistance, sheer mass that could crush trough defenses maintaining maneuverability compared to formation of men (especially in case of tight formations like the ones used by Romans or Greeks).

Knights did not really have "increased fatigue resistance" as a particular noteworthy attribute, especially when massed battles often began at dawn after a good night's rest and fighting would last most of the day. Speed, height, and increased mass were the knight's primary attributes. Again, mobility and the ability to apply power at critical areas. That's what cavalry really is.

For most of human history speed of an army was measured by the marching speed of men. (Napoleon was the absolute genius of forced marches). Also in wartime the average speed of an army advance against an enemy did not really change until quite recent (meaning after the Worl War II) mainly because the other guy is trying to stop your advance at any cost. Advancing 30 miles per day is not that speedy. In other words advancing 40 miles which in case of a person with a regular car would take about an hour, for an army in wartime conditions it could take a week, and actually if your enemy is as strong as you, it could be even more and end up in trench warfare where speed doesn’t mean shit.

Again, much of this thinking applies to older capabilities, which were not quite as fast as what becomes available later in history.

Mobility isn't just about moving an army ahead, it's also about moving around the battlefield in order to place yourself in a position where your firepower is useful.

"Pull back, move your unit around the back of the line, and fortify a position there to make up for a hole in our defense before the enemy can penetrate." Or sending troops in through a hole in the opponent's defense.

Again, the Russian Shock Army was slow and ponderous, but had so much firepower that they were used to destroy critical areas in their enemy's defense to allow faster units, such as tanks and mechanized infantry, to penetrate.

So in my opinion the main advantage of the introduction of vehicles in warfare is not so much their speed (in the same time it is not something that should be neglected), but their ability to get troops to the front lines without fatiguing them as there is quite a difference between fighting after you marched 60 miles or fighting after you were transported via truck, train, plain.

It's also about logistics of bringing supplies to your front lines. Food, ammunition, gasoline, etc. As well as fresh troops.

Napoleon may have been a genius at forced marches, but it came to bite him in the ass when his soldiers ran out of supplies while on campaign.

During World War 2, Patton's armies famously ran out of gas on two different campaigns. Despite this, He penetrated so far and so fast into German territory that the supply trains couldn't keep up.

At the end of the Battle of Stalingrad, the German Sixth Army was cut off and surrounded for months before they had to surrender. The only way they held out for so long was because of aircraft able to get in and out, bringing in supplies and ferrying out the wounded.

At the onset of Operation Desert Storm, tank divisions penetrated into Iraq so far that they were in danger of being cut off from supplies, and that's the only reason they stopped during that campaign.

In an engagement maneuverability is much more important than sheer speed and in such conditions where a vehicle driver can’t actually push the paddle to the mettle, a solider with power armor running at full speed, without fatiguing can advance as fast as a vehicle ( i would like to underline that I said "advance" and not go as fast as a vehicle).

Which limits maneuverability of infantry as superior over vehicles in urban or particularly uneven environments, such as in the mountains or jungle. Most vehicles can't go -inside- buildings, for instance. But vehicles can certainly get to those buildings a bit faster than going on foot, and drop off infantry and power armor, and then pick them back up and move on.

Also you are right that in the context of modern battlefield dressing up nicely and drawing fire can be considered outdated. It is outdated because the enemy fire can actually take out the thing behind which you are taking cover (armor, shield or vehicle). When the risk of the object that is covering you (tank, apc, power armor) being taken out is low (calculated risk) using it to draw fire is not outdated at all (SWAT behind an assault vehicle, or even a squad advancing in an urban area behind an APC, even if the possibility of the APC being taken out in a modern battlefield is quite large).Of course that they are camouflaged as that is not their main purpose but even then SWAT assault vehicles are or were painted blue because in their case camo is irrelevant.

Of course, SWAT has a completely different mission profile than the military, and SWAT is not expected to deal with criminals with access to military-grade anti-armor weapons, such as missiles.

In the "North Hollywood Shootout" example, the LAPD commandeered an armored bank van an used that for the purposes above - mostly for transporting the wounded out of the line of fire of two bank robbers with only assault rifles.

Then again the wasteland is not exactly what you would consider a very modern setting even if it is in the future and even if the NCR is modeled after a modern state “modeld” being the key word. There is plenty of room for so called outdated thinking as an ornate piece of equipment. As regarding the colonel, we don’t exactly know if he is coming or going javascript:emoticon('') or of his battlefield experience. He could be on his way to Hoover Dam and he might want to participate in the battle, where his armor, colored as it is can be a rallying point and morale booster for the troops. Please don’t argue that modern colonels do not really go into the heat of the battle as this is not a modern battlefield, the enemy they are facing is not exactly a high tech, and there is plenty of room in the wasteland setting to combine human wartime behavior from all of history, regardless after which prewar state the NCR or the Legion is modeled after.

Which again, I'm drawing upon the NCR's history up through New Vegas, rather than the distant past. The NCR battling the Brotherhood of Steel in a war with battles even more devastating than the Legion, and various other groups, ranging from raiders to otherwise. These incidents highlight the ever-increasing unlikelihood of an active NCR colonel being so reactionary as to emulate tribal thinking or the Legion by dressing his armor up with higher visibility paint.

Comparisons and examples from more modern military thinking (the US Civil War and onward) simply illustrate how different the mindset of the NCR compares against the Legion.

One can argue that Royez is a special case and that his armor is special order and that he has enough leeway to get away with wearing fielded power armor with bright colors and a taxidermied bear head on his shoulder. That just makes him a special case.

The argument had been whether it was an acceptable practice in a "modern" thinking military, like the NCR is. In a military where the new recruits don't even get body armor, and even the heavy troopers get suits of non-functinal power armor, I argued that no, it wouldn't be an acceptable practice.

Legion vs NCR…

Now I admit from the start that my knowledge of the legion is somewhat limited, because I simply can’t make myself side with a faction that supports slavery even in a fictional universe (I did however speak with Caesar and some of his commanders before eliminating them), but I could say that when the legion attacks is very much of a surprise attack in which Oliver didn’t have time to organize. Anyway Oliver should have some strategic and tactical abilities as he did lead from what I understood from Hanlon the first battle, but on the other hand I also have serious doubts about Oliver’s tactical and strategic thinking. Then again the battle of Hoover Dam, is not a typical battle in which the NCR is attacking.

Oliver was at the First Battle of Hoover Dam (he actually was the one in charge), but was unable to do anything other than hold up the Legion for a time.

Oliver seemed to be expecting an organized battle line like Graham had used, rather than the surprise attack that Lanius launches instead. Oliver's plan at the Second Battle of Hoover Dam was basically to outgun the Legion, using the same tactics, without Hanlon to back him up.

Regarding power armor and chainsaws…..

Well I can clearly see that the chainsaw is cutting though metal, but until you can show me a chainsaw cutting to an M1A2 Abrams, let me be a little skeptical. Regarding the ripper…well in my opinion is nothing more than an advanced bread cutter. It would be effective in street fights where there is no armor present, ok maybe is effective against Kevlar.

It's a good point to bring up. Tank armor is a composite of stainless steel, depleted uranium, and a few other materials, with a layer of kevlar on the inside. The armor on an Abrams is also at least half-foot thick at the thinnest point. I wouldn't wager on a steel chainblade cutting through that with any reasonable speed, nor even a tungsten carbide blade working through it in less than a decade.

Comparatively, the armor on power armor is not that thick, but it is a composite armor similar to tank armor.

Chainsaws can cut through steel within a reasonable thickness. Specialty chainsaws with specialty blades can cut through metal. Even modern Diamond bladed chainsaws can cut through up to an inch of steel with little difficulty, let alone more advanced materials and armor.

As technology and metallurgy continue to evolve, so will the tools used to work with those metals. Whatever materials go into power armor, something of similar use can be used for the cutting blades for a chainsaw.

This is important because rippers are basically weaponized chainsaws. Practical application of such a weapon would be the necessity to defeat commonly available armor, which includes combat armor (which has armored plates). Otherwise, what's the practical application of such a weapon over traditional edge weapons like bayonets/knives/swords which easily defeat kevlar, etc. or a chainsaw?

Even in Gun Runner's Arsenal, an upgrade for the Ripper comes in a carbide blade (no word if it's tungsten or not). The idea is still there.

On the other hand, you mentioned that nothing less than a legionaire with a lightsaber would work on power armor. That's pretty much describes the thermal lance (in game, a "thermic" lance). And yes, Legionaires can be armed with them.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMKBOoAOR7I[/youtube]

The Shishkebab doesn't seem like it burns hot enough to work as an oxyfuel torch.

Now rangers against veteran legionaries.

There is a huge difference in the way they are used…. As portrayed in the story and also by making parallels with Ainchent Rome, veteran legionaries were used mixed in with regular troops, or in the case of centurions there was one of them commanding a certain number of legionaries, one of their purpose being to stop the inexperienced troops from fleeing. You would never see just a squad of centurions, or a squad just of veteran legionnaires.

A squad of centurions? No. A squad of veteran legionnaires? Yes. Veteran legionaires were the triarii - the most veteran of legionaires, who were held in reserve while first two battle lines of the Legion went in. That's how they were used in the First Battle of Hoover Dam, but not how Lanius used them in the Second.

Again, ancient warfare versus modern military. Please don't forget that Centurions were officers, which comes into play during the First Battle of Hoover Dam, which our accounts of the battle reflect ancient roman organization.

Hanlon gives a break down of how the battle played out:

(Hanlon actually says that Caesar was flexible and could mix his troops up, Graham, on the other hand, was inflexible and did things "by the book" - and that included his approach to warfare.)

The inexperienced legionaires were sent in first (the hastati), and were held up by the NCR defense. The prime legionaires (the principes) were sent in right in behind them. The "old guard" - veteran legionaires (triarii) were in the back, not engaged.

The combined "mob" of recruits and prime legionaires made maneuvering much more difficult atop of the Dam, and the Centurions involved were easy to pick out by Ranger sharpshooters.

Once the first two waves were stuck, Graham ordered the Veterans to rush the defenses and push through to the front, causing even more anarchy without the officers. Oliver's troops simply got out of the way, and the Legionaires, without their officers, rushed after the defenders all the way down to Boulder City.

Rangers are an entirely different thing; they are very much like SEALS, or SAS. And I believe that I don’t have to explain the process of their selections based on your family background that you have presented in your debate with Tagaziel, so even an entry level Ranger should be as tough as a veteran legionaire.

You're more right than you know. Hehe.

They are usually used in groups and even their basic gear is pretty good. As in the modern world you don't mix SEALS with regular troops. Hell you don't mix modern rangers with regular troops. I know that you could use my arguments about outdated thinking to say that they could have used them mixed with troops, but there is actual proof in the game play that Rangers were used as i described above, In the case of the designer Power armor there is no counter argument in the story setting that would undercut it's posiblity.

Oh, I didn't say anything about the rank-and-file NCRs being put in with the veteran rangers or anything. They are two distinctly different groups in the same space, however.

The Legion is one cohesive group with a myriad of variables and capabilities, and is designed to be somewhat flexible and still retain a functional command structure. That is... if the officers are alive.

P.S Maan this is turning into a "Greedo shot first" kinda thing but from my point of view it is actually fun.....

It's better to have conversations than arguments and debates. I'm not emotionally invested to the point of insulting anyone, I prefer sharing ideas through dialog.

 

[Walpknut]

Seriously take that discussion somewhere else, not only it is unrelated to the topic, but it is also taking most of the pages.

 

[nemo00]

First let me start at the end.

Yes this topic has derailed but it kinda did after the first few replies…and nobody had a problem with it then and was actually encouraged (please do not make me paraphrase cause I never quite mastered it . When I have time I read quite a few topics on the forum and most of them can be accused of derailing. If you think about it we are not that far off as we speak about armor (legion armor included) we just like to answer all of the points that the other party brings up.

Now back to the issues Devil brought up

Regarding your last paragraph of your reply I completely agree with you, the key to any good discussion, from which you can actually learn something is addressing the issues leaving your ego out of it.
Now let’s get back to the rest of the points.

While I agree with the advantages of the mounted knights with plate armor (I specified mounted knight cause I don’t what some wiseass complaining about the fact that knight is a title and does not necessarily imply riding a horse) you brought up, but the use of horses does imply some degree of resistance against fatigue as it enables you to carry much heavier equipment for longer distance and time, without which a heavy mounted unit would end up as the French knights did against English longbow troops.

Also I completely agree on the impact of vehicles on logistics which is something as important as bringing fresh troops and sending them immediately in battle. Napoleons logistics were basically “advanced” foraging skills, which were inappropriate for a Russian winter.

Power Armor and chainsaws

I have to agree with you that indeed the armor of an Abrams is pretty thick compared to power armor, but still, we don’t exactly know type of composite materials the latter ones are made of. After all, anyway you cut it, the fallout universe is science fiction, fiction being an important part. So I’ll permit myself to believe that, even if the sheets of composites from which power armors are made are not that thick, they can withstand a regular chainsaw. Also chainsaws are not exactly famous for being standard military equipment. Ok there may be some that could dent a power armor, but these would be the top of the line models (maybe 5% of all the chainsaws out there) and in case of a nuclear war, the likelihood of only these surviving would be quite small, so it would be kind of impossible for all the veteran soldiers to be equipped with power armor cutting chainsaws (statistically they would be lucky to have even one).

This still leaves the ripper, which indeed as you pointed out is the weaponized version of a chainsaw. The thing is that it is not exactly that big (is still more of a bigger hunting knife then a sword). The teeth and the width of the chain have to be proportionate to its frame…so I am not exactly convinced that it could be used as an effective “can opener”. In most of the clips which you inserted, both the chainsaw and the thermal lance even if they did the job with relative ease, they weren’t exactly a textbook “hot knife through butter” cases and the materials which they cut also, weren’t military grade. To all this you have to ad that a person in power armor would not exactly be as passive as a steel pipe, so if the tools mentioned above couldn’t cut through power armor in a short amount of time, the person doing the cutting would have to deal with an incoming punch from the wearer of the armor at least. In this case we would have an incoming fist which has enhanced strength and is covered by metal against flesh and bone…… In time maybe someone would have developed some kind of ripper that would have been effective against power armor, but as the suit was used for a relative short time, and the US would have had no interest in making such a weapon the likelihood of the Legion having something like this is pretty low. Anyway I’ll admit that both the chainsaw and the ripper would be effective against all type of combat armor.

Regarding Mobility and speed

I personally consider speed as the ability to move forward in a theater of war. Mobility is much more about being able to maneuver around an enemy on the front lines. When I said that speed became an important factor only in the very recent times I specifically thought about Operation Desert Storm (conceived by gen Schwarzkopf if I am correct….) and Patton oh and of course Guderian. These three actually managed, I think, for the first time in History to make speed an important strategic factor, but even then I think that if you would take the average speed of their advance and compare it with peace time condition you would still come a little bit short, and to a certain degree it could be matched up with the top human speed. I did a little research, which said that the fastest human foot speed is around 44 km/h (27 mph). Let’s shave of 10 km/h (6mph) that will give us 33km/h (21 mph) which could be maintained for much longer times due to the nature of power armor. Now combine it with maneuverability and better response time to incoming threats than most of the modern vehicles (as its wearer is integrated into a suit and can target, shoot, and respond to threats much much faster than 4 men in a vehicle) and you have a deadly package with which infantry could make fighting vehicles in their current configuration kind of obsolete (at least until the introduction of battlemechs ). A vehicle would be faster when used to transport power armor to the front line, but on the front line the power armor could outmaneuver a vehicle.
Now I understand where you come from when you say that the NCR’s past decreases the likelihood of ornate power armors, but permit me to disagree. For this I have to explain a little bit the origins of my reasoning, which is based upon psychology (this being my job ) and sociology with a keen interest in history (both military and social).

So basic human nature on the individual level drives us, up until a certain point (of course there is the opposite tendency which is identification with a certain group, ) to differentiate our self from our fellow human beings and display our status regardless of the historic time period in which we are. This tendency is even more present generally in military leaders which have in general alpha mail type of behavior (is essentially an evolutionary trait encoded in our genetics which was refined over millions of years), again regardless of time period or in our case belonging to the NCR or the Legion as it is basic human nature. This is usually limited by the disadvantages of displaying rank and status (like being a prime target for snipers,). The easiest way to display status and rank is through the objects we poses and in the case of military commanders to customize the military equipment they poses, or have customized and specially made versions of the basic army equipment like a beautiful Henry rifle (piece of art I’ll tell ya), or an engraved Colt single action or M1911 issued for generals. Because mass use of armors became obsolete with the advent of firearms and sniping became more and more common so did the ornate set of plate armors became more and more rare, eventually disappearing. The reasons behind their disappearance are twofold: not being present as common equipment (so the statistical possibility of customizing an already rare equipment which is not generally used is low and pointless) and being easily identifiable by the enemy which has means to neutralize it (so the disadvantages provided by them are bigger than the advantages). So the main reason behind their disappearance is not so much the change in military thinking per say but in the change of context which forced military thinking to change. Change the context again and maintain the advantage which diminishes the risk factor for a longer period of time, and the psychological potential for reemergence of so called obsolete thinking is there regardless of the form of political governance.

Based upon the processes stated above as I argued somewhere before, if modern armies will introduce some form of power armor, and a context is created where the benefits of a leader being present on a battlefield outweighs the risks and the possibility for him getting killed, somewhere some general will order a custom designed version for himself which he will use more or less on a daily bases to display rank and status. Maybe not an US general, or maybe it won’t be using tacky colors but still it will be custom designed and more ornate and visible than that of regular troops.

The fallout universe offers such a context when facing the Legion meaning NCR has power armors which are not exactly that rare, and the possibility of the colonel being taken out by sniper fire is small, so the benefits of a present and visible leader are greater than the risks of him being killed by legionnaires. And in the end what did he do? Put a bear head on its shoulder and some red paint on its knee. If he would have camouflaged the armor with dessert colors the bear head wouldn’t even stand out that much.
Now, what makes the sierra power armor out of place is the fact that it is fully functional, compared with the rest of the NCR power armor (I believe you stated this couple of times). This for me raises a completely different issue. I can accept that a colonel uses it and has decorated it, and he is on the way to the front lines where he by displaying rank and status participates in the battle encouraging troops fighting beside them. My problem is that the NCR (this being their only working set of armor that we know of) by using it in battle wastes an extremely important resource. They should instead try to research it (they do have the capability) and then upgrade the rest of the suits, they damaging an loosing it . Let’s be serious one suit of power armor even if used especially that it is a D variant won’t make that much of a difference in a battle. Believe me, I’m an authority on the subject! I saved the world from aliens using this strategy a couple of times (capture, research turn against them)…..Oh wait that was X-com Enemy Unknown and Terror from the Deep .

Anyway the whole stripped NCR power armor as it appears in the story is stupid and practically. If the NCR stripped the servos out of the power armor they practically made them useless. All they have is heavy full plate armor. Also they are supposed to be armed with light machineguns, which are hard enough to operate standing up without the added weight of a bunch of metal plates on your back. So basically what the NCR has is a squad of manned paper presses and unless they mount them on something are completely useless and stupid.

 

[DevilTakeMe]

I agree with moving this thread to something new, but I'm not sure what to call it or whatever.

While I agree with the advantages of the mounted knights with plate armor (I specified mounted knight cause I don’t what some wiseass complaining about the fact that knight is a title and does not necessarily imply riding a horse) you brought up, but the use of horses does imply some degree of resistance against fatigue as it enables you to carry much heavier equipment for longer distance and time, without which a heavy mounted unit would end up as the French knights did against English longbow troops.

The horse gets tired, too. Their hooves can get sensitive to the conditions of the field, etc. etc. They need to rest as much as their riders do.

What you're thinking of is Mounted Infantry like Dragoons, who ride into battle on a horse, but get off, and are just another infantry unit until they leave with their horses - if they leave at all.

Power Armor and chainsaws

I have to agree with you that indeed the armor of an Abrams is pretty thick compared to power armor, but still, we don’t exactly know type of composite materials the latter ones are made of. After all, anyway you cut it, the fallout universe is science fiction, fiction being an important part. So I’ll permit myself to believe that, even if the sheets of composites from which power armors are made are not that thick, they can withstand a regular chainsaw. Also chainsaws are not exactly famous for being standard military equipment. Ok there may be some that could dent a power armor, but these would be the top of the line models (maybe 5% of all the chainsaws out there) and in case of a nuclear war, the likelihood of only these surviving would be quite small, so it would be kind of impossible for all the veteran soldiers to be equipped with power armor cutting chainsaws (statistically they would be lucky to have even one).

What we do know is the tolerance of kinetic energy power armor can resist. Seeing that .50 BMG rifles are capable of punching through power armor, that doesn't exactly tell me that a chainsaw couldn't go through power armor.

This still leaves the ripper, which indeed as you pointed out is the weaponized version of a chainsaw. The thing is that it is not exactly that big (is still more of a bigger hunting knife then a sword). The teeth and the width of the chain have to be proportionate to its frame…so I am not exactly convinced that it could be used as an effective “can opener”. In most of the clips which you inserted, both the chainsaw and the thermal lance even if they did the job with relative ease, they weren’t exactly a textbook “hot knife through butter” cases and the materials which they cut also, weren’t military grade. To all this you have to ad that a person in power armor would not exactly be as passive as a steel pipe, so if the tools mentioned above couldn’t cut through power armor in a short amount of time, the person doing the cutting would have to deal with an incoming punch from the wearer of the armor at least. In this case we would have an incoming fist which has enhanced strength and is covered by metal against flesh and bone…… In time maybe someone would have developed some kind of ripper that would have been effective against power armor, but as the suit was used for a relative short time, and the US would have had no interest in making such a weapon the likelihood of the Legion having something like this is pretty low. Anyway I’ll admit that both the chainsaw and the ripper would be effective against all type of combat armor.

The clips are demonstration tools. Again, the chainsaw is making a precision is cut - trying to make the line as neat as possible. The thermic lance is doing something similar, simply pressing into a steel box. If a chainsaw/ripper is made of more durable material to keep up with the construction, yes... they could very easily be used to destroy power armor if the materials are reasonably similar.

The ripper does not have to cut through the entire body to be useful. Just enough to get inside the body and do some horrifying damage.

Regarding Mobility and speed

I personally consider speed as the ability to move forward in a theater of war. Mobility is much more about being able to maneuver around an enemy on the front lines. When I said that speed became an important factor only in the very recent times I specifically thought about Operation Desert Storm (conceived by gen Schwarzkopf if I am correct….) and Patton oh and of course Guderian. These three actually managed, I think, for the first time in History to make speed an important strategic factor, but even then I think that if you would take the average speed of their advance and compare it with peace time condition you would still come a little bit short, and to a certain degree it could be matched up with the top human speed. I did a little research, which said that the fastest human foot speed is around 44 km/h (27 mph). Let’s shave of 10 km/h (6mph) that will give us 33km/h (21 mph) which could be maintained for much longer times due to the nature of power armor. Now combine it with maneuverability and better response time to incoming threats than most of the modern vehicles (as its wearer is integrated into a suit and can target, shoot, and respond to threats much much faster than 4 men in a vehicle) and you have a deadly package with which infantry could make fighting vehicles in their current configuration kind of obsolete (at least until the introduction of battlemechs ). A vehicle would be faster when used to transport power armor to the front line, but on the front line the power armor could outmaneuver a vehicle.

Perhaps a little more research is in order. That fast human foot speed is was accomplished only while unimpeded by gear, and he was on a flat, even surface for a short distance. It's a great example of what's called "burst" speed and trying to maintain that speed is pretty much impossible.

They've built cars that can reach 270 mph on a perfectly straight road, but they can't keep up those speeds before the expensive and specially-made tires shred themselves after 30 miles or so at that speed. Your legs do not last forever at high speed. Muscle fibers and ligaments aren't made for long-term abuse like that.

Power armor grants strength, not endurance, which helps with reducing the shock and wear and tear on the legs while carrying the heavy load of heavy weapons plus the armor, but doesn't do much for the wearer's conditioning.

A normal human being, unassisted, over a period of time can average between 6 to 9 mph running consistently. 12 mph is the fastest average speed anyone has ever run a marathon (26 miles), while 6 mph is the fastest anyone has ever run 100 miles.

This is the high end of what a person can physically do, to which power armor is purported to allow a similar performance, except with much more being carried.

Again, Fallout's power armor does not increase the wearer's speed. All this talk of the power armor carrying itself is correct, but the person wearing the armor still carries his own weight in the operation of the armor. The wearer still needs his own muscles to get himself and the armor moving, the armor just helps facilitate that process.

There are two kinds of mobility. Strategic and tactical mobility.

Strategic mobility is simply getting into the combat zone in a meaningful moment and time. Air drops, air lifts, moving across a combat zone at a good speed. D-Day landings, etc.

In 1847, during the Mexican-American War, General Santa Anna, defending his hometown of Cerro Gordo with 12,000 men with artillery, decided not to put any forces in a key position above his position because he did not think the invading forces would be able to get up onto the ridge.

Santa Anna was very wrong, and Winfield Scott went around most of Santa Anna's forces and set up his -cannons- atop of the ridge and thoroughly routed the Mexican army.

Mind you, Santa Anna's army had gone to bed the night before with no cannons on the ridge. A 40-year-old Robert E. Lee snuck all of the cannons onto the ridge during the night, pointing down on the mexican positions. Imagine the surprise on Santa Anna's face when he looked up and saw his enemy's cannons pointed down at him when he thought they couldn't get up there.

Tactical mobility is a bit more involved and often done under fire. Advancing under fire, maneuvering against an enemy.

Now I understand where you come from when you say that the NCR’s past decreases the likelihood of ornate power armors, but permit me to disagree. For this I have to explain a little bit the origins of my reasoning, which is based upon psychology (this being my job ) and sociology with a keen interest in history (both military and social).

So basic human nature on the individual level drives us, up until a certain point (of course there is the opposite tendency which is identification with a certain group, ) to differentiate our self from our fellow human beings and display our status regardless of the historic time period in which we are. This tendency is even more present generally in military leaders which have in general alpha mail type of behavior (is essentially an evolutionary trait encoded in our genetics which was refined over millions of years), again regardless of time period or in our case belonging to the NCR or the Legion as it is basic human nature. This is usually limited by the disadvantages of displaying rank and status (like being a prime target for snipers,). The easiest way to display status and rank is through the objects we poses and in the case of military commanders to customize the military equipment they poses, or have customized and specially made versions of the basic army equipment like a beautiful Henry rifle (piece of art I’ll tell ya), or an engraved Colt single action or M1911 issued for generals. Because mass use of armors became obsolete with the advent of firearms and sniping became more and more common so did the ornate set of plate armors became more and more rare, eventually disappearing. The reasons behind their disappearance are twofold: not being present as common equipment (so the statistical possibility of customizing an already rare equipment which is not generally used is low and pointless) and being easily identifiable by the enemy which has means to neutralize it (so the disadvantages provided by them are bigger than the advantages). So the main reason behind their disappearance is not so much the change in military thinking per say but in the change of context which forced military thinking to change. Change the context again and maintain the advantage which diminishes the risk factor for a longer period of time, and the psychological potential for reemergence of so called obsolete thinking is there regardless of the form of political governance.

I disagree, simply because it is still a reactionary way of thinking, and the context you suggest can only exist if the NCR were -not- following the trappings of a modern civilization, with a much more modern context in their military complex, and that the NCR followed rather the reactionary precepts of old warfare in mind.

Manfred von Richthofen, aka the Red Baron, World War I legend and flying ace of aces. Everyone knows who he is and what is famous for (flying a scarlet red Fokker triplane). The image is iconic. But one has to remember that his whole squadron also flew red Dr.I planes. Why? To avoid letting their squadron commander be singled out in a dogfight.

As time has gone on, individual officer weapons have virtually disappeared. There was a time when cavalry officers had sabers on the battlefield - it's no longer there except for ceremonial duty. Same with the M15 General Officer's pistol (though some who have been around awhile might still carry it).

Based upon the processes stated above as I argued somewhere before, if modern armies will introduce some form of power armor, and a context is created where the benefits of a leader being present on a battlefield outweighs the risks and the possibility for him getting killed, somewhere some general will order a custom designed version for himself which he will use more or less on a daily bases to display rank and status. Maybe not an US general, or maybe it won’t be using tacky colors but still it will be custom designed and more ornate and visible than that of regular troops.

The problem is simply that colonels are not generals. General officers (meaning, actual generals like Patton and Eisenhower and not low-ranking officers) specified their own uniforms, and Patton decided on what we know of him today. Call it the perk of being a general, not a colonel.

The example brought up by Tagaziel had been General George S. Patton in regards to his uniform, with the cavalry boots, the pistols and the polished helmet. The problem with the comparison is that Patton was a general, not a colonel.

Under "modern" (using the term loosely) military regulations, General Oliver would have the right to wear a uniform he prescribes to himself (and he does - no one else in the NCR you meet wears anything even remotely like his uniform).

Although we don't know the exact details of how the NCR run their military, but in the United States, Colonels were bound by strict uniform regulations.

As a matter of fact, anyone (including colonels) under Patton's command had to observe uniform dress or else pay stiff fines. What was Patton's reasoning for enforcing strict uniform cohesion? Increased survivability, increased discipline and unit pride.

If we -were- to see the older context of individualized suits of armor becoming an extension of one's rank and status, we would see more of that in the NCR ranks. However, we don't. The two other colonels in the NCR, Hsu and Moore, both wear bog standard issue NCR trooper uniforms, as do every other officer in the NCR military except General Oliver.

Again, who among the Legion has a truly distinctive individual outfit? Their generals. Joshua Graham had his Salt Lake City PD SWAT outfit, and Lanius has his fashionable plate armor.

While Caesar seeks to obliterate cultural identity and create a uniform social structure through slavery and military conquest, NCR achieves the same end through legalities, taxes and bureaucracy. This is even true among the military. While the Legion favors bright colors, they also have uniforms which properly denote their rank without calling upon an individuality to that particular officer or soldier.

The only exception? Gaius Magnus, who is in the same position Col. Royez is in, and that the two characters have "unique" armor for mostly the reason to be unique and "cool".

I offered a better example than Patton in Jack Churchill, a British Colonel who fought in World War 2 with a bow and arrow and a claymore alongside grenades and his issued firearms, yet he still wore his uniform appropriate to his rank.

The fallout universe offers such a context when facing the Legion meaning NCR has power armors which are not exactly that rare, and the possibility of the colonel being taken out by sniper fire is small, so the benefits of a present and visible leader are greater than the risks of him being killed by legionnaires. And in the end what did he do? Put a bear head on its shoulder and some red paint on its knee. If he would have camouflaged the armor with dessert colors the bear head wouldn’t even stand out that much.
Now, what makes the sierra power armor out of place is the fact that it is fully functional, compared with the rest of the NCR power armor (I believe you stated this couple of times). This for me raises a completely different issue. I can accept that a colonel uses it and has decorated it, and he is on the way to the front lines where he by displaying rank and status participates in the battle encouraging troops fighting beside them. My problem is that the NCR (this being their only working set of armor that we know of) by using it in battle wastes an extremely important resource. They should instead try to research it (they do have the capability) and then upgrade the rest of the suits, they damaging an loosing it . Let’s be serious one suit of power armor even if used especially that it is a D variant won’t make that much of a difference in a battle. Believe me, I’m an authority on the subject! I saved the world from aliens using this strategy a couple of times (capture, research turn against them)…..Oh wait that was X-com Enemy Unknown and Terror from the Deep .

Exactly the point. Royez is somewhere of some importance on the Long 15, where Vertibirds are stationed and where important travellers stop through on their way between NCR and New Vegas. It's already far from the Sierra Army Depot where the armor is assumed to have originated, as well as an experienced officer with power armor training is rather far off from anywhere genuinely useful.

If he's going to be useful, he would either be sent to the front lines, or kept in reserve where his armor can be researched, and... you know, someplace where he can train heavy armor troops to use power armor so they don't -have- to strip the servos out of the armor.

As it stands, being on an I-15 posting simply puts him too far out to be anything like a publicity character (like the Blue Angels or whatever), and too far from the important lines to boost morale even in a guardian capacity.

Anyway the whole stripped NCR power armor as it appears in the story is stupid and practically. If the NCR stripped the servos out of the power armor they practically made them useless. All they have is heavy full plate armor. Also they are supposed to be armed with light machineguns, which are hard enough to operate standing up without the added weight of a bunch of metal plates on your back. So basically what the NCR has is a squad of manned paper presses and unless they mount them on something are completely useless and stupid.

That's how the NCR heavy troopers are described. Which just makes the embellishment upon a functioning set of power armor that much more idiotic.

 

[ramessesjones]

It never got nerfed. There are two different kinds of T-51b in Fallout 3.

If I can kill a guy wearing power armor with a 10mm pistol then yeah, it got nerfed.

That's just Fallout 3. They used Damage Resistance without the Damage Threshold.

I guess that's a nerf in its own way. Fair enough.

But again, that kind of just goes to show you that power armor doesn't make anyone invincible.

If we have to go back to Fallout 1 and 2, I can just point out that the Glow contains an incident where four guys in Power Armor died thinking their armor was completely invulnerable. One guy was immediately shredded to ribbons by West Tek robots, while the suits of the other three were damaged to the point their air filters failed and they died of radiation poisoning.

And in a more recent example, the Mojave BoS chapter sent 2 dudes in gleaming white power armor to scout Boomer territory. Unfortunately, power armor does not protect against 155mm shells.

The guys in the REPCONN building near New Vegas have to suffer the indignity of being defeated by a piece of collapsed ceiling and some robots.

The other two near Black Mountain are killed by centaurs - whose attacks are spitting globs of radioactive snot at you, or... tongue-whipping you to death.

And that is what they get for not wearing their helmets.

 

[nemo00]

I never stated that a horse would never tire, but I know from experience (I ride from time to time) that they have better fatigue resistance, at least than me, so the basic line is that a mounted unit in on a battlefield and not just dragoons, do have better fatigue resistance than foot soldier and in units, also better mobility. You could say that heavy armor cuts this advantage, but the horses used to mount full plated knights were not exactly arabs. They were huge well fed, well trained, animals, the likes of which aren’t around today (as they together with the mounted knight became obsolete). The closest thing to them today would be something between a Holstein combined with a Friz, with a little bit of cold bloded work horse

Power armor and chainsaw

Regarding the kinetic energy of a chainsaw…….are we shooting chainsaws out of cannons now? . Ok jokes aside I am not much of a physicist I think that the kinetic energy of a chainsaw is the force and mass with which somebody is thrusting it. Also there is special cloth equipment made to for protection against chainsaws, ok they have limited capabilities, and against top of the line chainsaws none, but still they do work up to a certain degree. But again as I argued before the whole point is that the statistical possibility for only the top of the line chainsaws (and these have to be the absolute best maybe still in experimental phases) needed to cut through power armor, to survive combined with the probability that the legion has somehow managed to procure this extremely rare technology is very close to 0. Also as chainsaw are not standard military equipment there is no logical motive for the US to develop chainsaws to cut through power armor.

Concerning ripper, I am not saying that eventually rippers will not be able to cut through power armors, but I have serious doubts about the rippers in the fallout universe are able to do so.

My motives are
1 logically only the US would have the technology to makes such a weapon as only they were able to make power armors.
2 There would be no strategic purpose behind making such a weapon as there were no Chinese power armors.
3. The risk of one of them falling into enemy hands is not something to ignore, and also they would be easier to reproduce.
Rippers together with power fists are more of a brawler weapons developed for street fights to do horrendous against an unarmored or slightly armored opponent, and to instill fear into an opponent (the thought of chainsaws in any form does make a street thug think twice before charging). They would not be standard military equipment as standard combat knifes like K-bars would do the job especially against Chinese troopers (Chinese don’t really use body armor as they have a shitload of manpower), and would be less hazardous to carry. A ripper is just a fancy piece of equipment with limited strategic value that has also requires regular maintenance to work properly, and with no additional benefits the army would not bother with it. If they would not bother with it, not only would they not make ones that are capable to cut trough power armor, but they would legally outlaw the production of such a weapon for the general public. This again by use of statistics would limit the access of the Legion to such a weapon next to 0.

Power armor and speed.

I see your point and there is not enough game data to continue debating these particular issues.

Now about reactionary way of thinking……well from a psychological view there is no such thing. Context and environment and technological means combined with basic human nature (core psychological processes which are the frame on which the rest of our personality is built) dictate how society is organized thus models our way of thinking. These psychological processed are pretty much constants never being erased, way they manifest themselves being conditioned by the environment. The best example for this is actually the whole fallout universe. Take away technology and the psychological restrains imposed by society and we revert to the so called reactionary (which is actually an euphemism for primitive) ways of thinking in a surprisingly short time. So even if NCR does try to emulate modern US we cannot put equality sign between them, and this also reflects upon their military organization. While it does emulate ranks and some standards of the US army……..it is not the modern US army and its grooming standards do not apply for a myriad of reasons, so there is enough places for so called reactionary way of thinking. Actually it would much more close to “reality” if we compared the NCR and its army with the United States somewhere during the civil and frontier wars than with the prewar modern United States.

Historically speaking strict grooming standards became widespread only in the XX century, as a result of conventions (like the Geneva convention) and advances in cloth manufacturing techniques. Until then grooming standards were more like guidelines…and the more you advanced in rank the more lax these guidelines became.
Ironically officers were the ones that resisted the most the introduction of strict grooming standards in the upper ranks even when faced with the risk of being killed by snipers as this took away the possibility to show off their superior status. So again the ONLY reason for which there are no designer armors in the XIX century (The United States of this period being the closest thing with which we can compare the NCR as I stated before) is not because showing rank, or the psychological processes on which it’s based upon became reactionary it is because that armors were not standard military equipment anymore being obsolete so officers started to personalize other pieces of equipment that were not obsolete. For a modern example just look at Gaddafi…..when he was killed he packed a golden browning hi power…..(and he was only a colonel ). If he could have gotten his hands upon a suite of power armor, I would bet my years salary that he would have personalized it, and not just with a bear head and a star….but he would have plated it at least with silver.

When uniforms became more and more standardized due to outside pressure officers started compensating with beards ….. This is very logical, as showing rank and status is something so deeply embedded in our psychology, that 150 years of indoctrination is far from enough to erase it. Even the US military had a hard time introducing grooming standards. They started at the rank and file and by the Second World War they managed to work their way up until the rank of general (as you exemplified with Patton). You can label it reactionary thinking, but the matter of fact it is something that will be present for a very long time. This is something which I can back up with numerous psychological and sociological studies. In the case of the breaking down of present social order grooming standards will be the first things to go in a war band, and it will be the hardest things to reinstate when organized armies will start to reappear. So a matter of fact, from a sociological point of view colonel Moore and Hsu are the ones out of place and colonel Royez is the one who is more realistic, as the NCR has a looong way to go before it can reach the standardization that would have been present before the war. Also manufacturing standardized uniforms is as I stated before a very arduous process and I don’t think the NCR has the means to mass-produce them.

Also it is of much lower importance then manufacturing weapons for example. The only explanation for which we don’t see more unique uniforms in the NCR is because of game design issues. You have to admit the fact that Hsu and More don’t have any rank marking at all which also goes against current grooming standards.
The best example for lax grooming standards is the elite riot armor itself (AND WE ARE BACK ON TOPIC….more or less) which is basically personalized combat ranger armor (it’s said so in the description). I admit that it does not have a freaking bear on its shoulder, but it is also proof that some type of personalization is accepted in the NCR armed forces.

Also Darth Vader had a personalized armor and that fictional universe is pretty advanced 

The only problem with the sierra power armor on which we both agree is that is actually a working power armor, but personally I wouldn’t have a problem with it if it would be a customized regular non working NCR power armor.

 

[DevilTakeMe]

For the sake of everyone involved, we'll start a new thread in the General Fallout Discussion forum regarding power armor.

(Link forthcoming with a review and response.)

Also it is of much lower importance then manufacturing weapons for example. The only explanation for which we don’t see more unique uniforms in the NCR is because of game design issues. You have to admit the fact that Hsu and More don’t have any rank marking at all which also goes against current grooming standards.

This is actually more proof that NCR officers -don't- have unique uniforms. Even when not talking about Colonels, we see every other non-General Officer in a standardized uniform.

Major Dhatri, Major Polatli, Lieutenant Hayes, Lieutenant Haggerty, etc.

Any rank insignia is usually a relatively small detail, especially in a "modern" thinking military on or near the front lines during a war. Rank insignia is attached to a standard uniform without further modification like a bear's head.

The best example for lax grooming standards is the elite riot armor itself (AND WE ARE BACK ON TOPIC….more or less) which is basically personalized combat ranger armor (it’s said so in the description). I admit that it does not have a freaking bear on its shoulder, but it is also proof that some type of personalization is accepted in the NCR armed forces.

NCR rangers do not follow the structure of the NCR Army. NCR rangers appear as both cowboys in "non-military" clothes and as armored soldiers while in their official capacities as law enforcement agents and tactical sharpshooters. Essentially, they switch between Texas Rangers and Army Rangers. And even then, their outfits make them unmistakable without drawing overt attention to themselves.

Notably, we have two examples of former rangers who become NCR Army and change their uniform accordingly.

Corporal Sterling was a ranger, now serving in NCR 1st Recon and wearing a NCR uniform. One can argue that he has his Ranger Hat, but then, this is 1st Recon we're talking about - a sniper unit who wears bright red berets, and his hat is less conspicuous.

Colonel Moore herself is a former NCR ranger, now serving the NCR in her current role, again wearing a standard NCR uniform.

Also Darth Vader had a personalized armor and that fictional universe is pretty advanced.

A little sidetracking here, but Vader is not a good example for three reasons:

1. Vader's suit serves a practical purpose as it is also his life support system.

2. Vader was never a ranked member of the Imperial Military, as either the Galactic Army of the Republic or the Imperial Army/Navy/whatever. He was a member of the Jedi Order, who had their own "dress code" which was ignored from time to time with no obvious penalty (I'm looking at you, Aayla Secura).

3. Vader was placed in power over the Imperial military by the Emperor (who also gave him the armor, by the way) - effectively he doesn't have to wear a uniform, either because he is actually non-military despite being in charge, and/or his command supersedes the command structure, allowing him to dictate his own uniform. Of course, his command is so absolute that he seems to routinely kill officers under his command who disagree with him or otherwise "disappoint" him. We've seen what he does to Imperial Officers who question him or his beliefs ("I find your lack of faith disturbing" *force choke*).

The only problem with the sierra power armor on which we both agree is that is actually a working power armor, but personally I wouldn’t have a problem with it if it would be a customized regular non working NCR power armor.

I agree, I would have zero problem with the Scorched Sierra Power Armor if it were non-functional, but as it actually is working, that's where I have a problem.

 

[nemo00]

Ok...so we reached a conclusion. I agree 100% with your last statement regarding the sierra power armor, I like that . It was a good intellectual exercise.

Now I'l go check out the new thread about power armor, if hope it will be as engaging as this one

Cheers