Emil comments on V.A.T.S.

[Pope Viper]

I would imagine BS doesn't have that kind of interaction because of their "design" philosophy. I think especially in the case of FO3, they had no idea how the system worked in the first two, so they did a bash it all together for the 3rd.

My .02

 

[Texas Renegade]

If your point is about the ease of killing some low level SMs. I still do not see the basis of this complaint. They are product of mutation, mutations themselves are terribly unstable. Not every SM is gonna be a LVL 20 100 + hp character. To believe they will flies right in the face of the Masters comments on the different effects that Vating a person has on them.

That would kind of work if that's what they did (would like some visual differentiation) and I'm sure to some degree that's what they did (there are different types of Feral Ghouls) but they didn't explain it by mutations being unstable. It also doesn't help that they assured people that they weren't going to level up and down enemies, just change their equipment and numbers, so that you wouldn't fight a a creature of a certain type (used Super Mutants or Death Claws as an example, don't remember which) of different powers. How I think they've circumvented this is by providing different "types" of creatures (Feral Ghoul, Ghoul Reaver, Mindless Ghoul, etc). It's the same damn thing but they aren't technically the same type of creature.

Besides which, Super Mutants are supposed to be super soldiers so they shouldn't be easy to take out at low level (<10ish) and in Beth lore they get more powerful and mutated as they get older (Behemoths) so it makes even less sense given fresh ones were being fought in the first game.

Well I could be entirely off the mark here, but my understanding is that the SMs in the suburbs are far weaker then the ones in the middle of DC. Some of the previews have reflected this--including the one that ran all the way to rivet city. he cited that he could kill things in the suburbs but basically had to just run--dying many times and restarting- to make it through to Rivet City. I don't even know if he went through downtown, but the area he went through was apparently plenty dangerous.

That would be kind of similar to try to make it to one of the later areas in the original, you could do it if you got lucky, but often had the result of dying and reloading.

Oh and Beta, seriously, don't try to argue Beths developement over black Isles. One is much more open and responsive to fans then the other.

I agree though, a lot of Beths issues come from their design philosophy. They can't be as open and receptive, because in the end they don't know the answers to some of the questions yet.

 

[betamonkey]

Yes, we knew more about Van Buren's SPECIAL without it being announced than we know about Beth's FO3 SPECIAL.

It sounds like people knew too much to me. When someone loses the freedom and liberty to refine their own creation as they see fit without the criticism of the peanut gallery then you have disclosed too much. This sort of thing is what encourages companies of today, including Bethesda, to do the same.

Of course the people on the forums will moan and complain and lament the lack of dev interaction, but if Emil came here I don't think anything meaningful would come from the attempt at discourse.

Oh and Beta, seriously, don't try to argue Beths developement over black Isles. One is much more open and responsive to fans then the other.

Pardon? I'll argue what I want, especially since it's quite clear many here have no idea what it is like on the other side. Well, I take that back. I am not here to argue at all. The industry has changed, and whatever good things you think Black Isle did in the past have largely fallen by the wayside. Partially because they weren't necessarily good things on the whole.

 

[TheRatKing]

Concerning SMs, they are not based on random mutations, but controlled mutation by the FEV virus, so SMs would not all be of different level. The only difference that I can see happening is that Super Mutants who were pure (not radiated) would be stronger and smarter.

 

[Texas Renegade]

well, I would argue that the very idea that not everyone survived dipping would make it somewhat random. Then factor in the fact that in the original games, not all SMs were the same.

Add onto that the decision by beth that
[spoiler:6588422578]
These SMs are created by an entirely different strain of FEV and it is entirely reasonable to come to different conclusions. Irregardelss of your opinion of how different developed strains of FEV at the same time makes much sense.[/spoiler:6588422578]

 

[entropyjesus]

Pardon? I'll argue what I want, especially since it's quite clear many here have no idea what it is like on the other side. Well, I take that back. I am not here to argue at all. The industry has changed, and whatever good things you think Black Isle did in the past have largely fallen by the wayside. Partially because they weren't necessarily good things on the whole.

Of course, Black Isle made much better games than Bethesda. You can argue about that until you're blue in the face, but Black Isle and its progenitors were far more talented than anyone at Bethesda. I don't care about how the industry changed, what makes a good game at its core has never changed and Bethesda, time and time again, make mediocre games with INCREDIBLE amounts of hype and marketing behind them. No amount of hype or marketing can make Oblivion a better game than anything Black Isle made. Black Isle's openness to their fans was a testament to their dedication to good game development and has nothing to do with why they're no longer around. If you recall, Bethesda had nearly fallen by the wayside as well, but were picked up off the proverbial ground by Zenimax.

 

[Ixyroth]

Pardon? I'll argue what I want, especially since it's quite clear many here have no idea what it is like on the other side. Well, I take that back. I am not here to argue at all. The industry has changed, and whatever good things you think Black Isle did in the past have largely fallen by the wayside. Partially because they weren't necessarily good things on the whole.

Of course, Black Isle made much better games than Bethesda. You can argue about that until you're blue in the face, but Black Isle and its progenitors were far more talented than anyone at Bethesda. I don't care about how the industry changed, what makes a good game at its core has never changed and Bethesda, time and time again, make mediocre games with INCREDIBLE amounts of hype and marketing behind them. No amount of hype or marketing can make Oblivion a better game than anything Black Isle made. Black Isle's openness to their fans was a testament to their dedication to good game development and has nothing to do with why they're no longer around. If you recall, Bethesda had nearly fallen by the wayside as well, but were picked up off the proverbial ground by Zenimax.

Don't feed the tr... er, monkey.

Didn't you know? WalMart and Microsoft became such powerhouses due to their outstanding dedication to innovation and quality.

 

[betamonkey]

Of course, Black Isle made much better games than Bethesda..

And I didn't say anything to the contrary, did I?

But let me ask you this. Did you need to read the forums and find out how the combat worked down to the last modifier to eventually play and enjoy the first Fallout?

No? I didn't think so. So why would you need to know these details for Fallout 3? Or even Van Buren? And why would someone want to tell you something may be different only to incite ire? The people on the forums aren't developing the game. They aren't playing the build. They don't know. They like to think they do, but they don't.

Nothing made me cringe more than some loopy lead designer who barely knew half of how something was implemented was telling people it was the best thing since sliced bread because it does this and that.. and when the game comes out and it doesn't do anything like they expect? Yeah, it's not pretty.

 

[sonicblastoise]

Nothing made me cringe more than some loopy lead designer who barely knew half of how something was implemented was telling people it was the best thing since sliced bread because it does this and that.. and when the game comes out and it doesn't do anything like they expect? Yeah, it's not pretty.

uh...todd howard made you cringe?

 

[shihonage]

Of course, Black Isle made much better games than Bethesda..

And I didn't say anything to the contrary, did I?

But let me ask you this. Did you need to read the forums and find out how the combat worked down to the last modifier to eventually play and enjoy the first Fallout?

Fallout was the first game in the series. Nobody cared about it until it came out being ... great. That kind of greatness is not a result of coincidence, it is a result of a tremendous amount of thought put into every little detail. It set the precedent for the series, drew attention to it, and encouraged deep examination.

That's why the fans, now, obsess about every little detail of Fallout 3.

 

[aenemic]

it is a result of a tremendous amount of thought put into every little detail.

let's not exaggerate here. yes, the game is very well thought out. the story, setting, dialogue... all is amazing. but it's still a very flawed game and it's obvious that they ignored or weren't capable of fixing a lot of more technical or playability-related issues.

 

[Iozeph]

The horribly inept people aren't the ones to judge how useful VATS is based on how much they use it, it's far more useful to look at how often/when good players use it (if they don't like it they'll only use it when they need to, ie against powerful enemies).

And here is the problem. What defines a good or bad player? His twitch reflexes or his stat/skill build? All or none of the above? Does this suddenly mean that in this RPG(any RPG), which is supposed to be about freedom and exploration, that there are now wrong and right character builds?

If VATS is purely elective, because SPECIAL stats have no effect on gun play etc., then why have SPECIAL in the first place? If SPECIAL does have an appreciable effect on those skills, yet you aren't given the option to use the skills you are developing, say if you make a charisma/intellect based character, to avoid combat altogether, then you have a problem.

If combat is thrust upon you in such a way that you end up using VATS as a crutch, because your other skills are simply ignored, then you have a problem as well.

It's concerns like this that go back to much of the reason why people continue to believe that Bethesda doesn't make(good) RPGs. And in the cases where Bethesda swears that they will/are- people just don't trust them at their word anymore.

 

[shihonage]

let's not exaggerate here. yes, the game is very well thought out. the story, setting, dialogue... all is amazing. but it's still a very flawed game and it's obvious that they ignored or weren't capable of fixing a lot of more technical or playability-related issues.

Every game is flawed. Yet most games fade out within months. Single-player ones, especially so.

Very few games create communities that remain active for over a decade and continue being modded during all that time, up to and including the present.

That has never been a coincidence. That is a result of superior quality work.

 

[entropyjesus]

But let me ask you this. Did you need to read the forums and find out how the combat worked down to the last modifier to eventually play and enjoy the first Fallout?

Well I've played Fallout 3 and I can say without a doubt that I think VATS has far more flaws than the real turn-based system in the originals. I didn't need to read the forums to tell me the first game was good and I certainly don't need to read the forums to KNOW that the new game is lackluster.

I didn't need to understand the ins and outs of the system, but at least what was being shown made sense in the originals. In FO3, it seems like no matter what your chance to hit is, it's always a pretty good chance that you will indeed hit your target and that doesn't "feel" right at all.

 

[whirlingdervish]

I for one would prefer more numbers instead of less, and more actual consequences to the values of those stats.

the process of levelling up my character so he/she actually could hit things was integral to my enjoyment of Fallout when I first played it.

It gave a sense of real accomplishment when I realized I hadn't missed a crucial shot for a long time, much the same as having gained enough experience to be able to steal with impunity, but moreso because the alternative was a quick death at an enemy's hand.

I almost always started off not bothering to use my guns in an effort to save ammo for the toughest of enemiesand because I knew I wouldn't be able to hit much anyway after a couple tries at the first rat that got in my way.

This forced me to kill a lot of early enemies with a punch to the head/groin (many times while holding a rock) and after enough times I got to appreciate a good hit with a gun a lot more because the alternative was so much more dangerous and difficult.

The first time I managed to kill a deathclaw in FO using only the shotgun and SMG I literally got out of my seat and went outside to have a smoke because the I had been so over stimulated by the fear that my sub par character would miss a close up shot and get wrecked on the claws of the beast after a tense run and gun battle.

That fear came from a healthy understanding of my character's capabilities based on the actual numbers that represented his skills and how he had only the slimmest of margins by which to beat the creature and run before the next one got him.

From the gameplay vids I've watched there seems to be none of this aspect left in Fallout 3.

With melee weapons you dont even have to worry that you'll miss thanks to VATS, and with the guns you're constantly guessing if you're even hitting things in FPS mode because the enemies are unresponsive until they explode like a bag of blood or ragdoll backward in a death animation.

and then there's VATS with guns, where it seemed that about 80% of the time the shot landed even if it didn't do much damage.

There is almost no visual correlation between character skills and what happens in combat except for how often you are getting swarmed by melee attackers when you cant kill them fast enough.

It reminds me of a crappy version of Halo, with recoil animations that are nonexistent, and guns that dont exactly shoot straight until you hit the "I win" button.

There's really not much of a sense of growth or accomplishment to it since you can be hitting things right out of the vault with high accuracy, and there is exactly 0 respect developed for the value of choosing the right shot or the correct weapon for the job, or deciding on an alternative path if you realize you can't win in a straight up wild west style duel.

 

[Brother None]

Did you need to read the forums and find out how the combat worked down to the last modifier to eventually play and enjoy the first Fallout?

No? I didn't think so. So why would you need to know these details for Fallout 3?

Fallout 3 is a sequel. Fallout 1 was not. Fallout 2 had the same mechanics. Since the mechanics are changing, people wanting details on what changes is only logical.

See, for comparison, Blizzard explaining the new levelling up system in Diablo III.

Pardon? I'll argue what I want, especially since it's quite clear many here have no idea what it is like on the other side.

You are indeed free to argue what you want, though you seem a bit contrite to me. Argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. Which is fine, but not always useful.

[spoiler:a175e70fb2]These SMs are created by an entirely different strain of FEV and it is entirely reasonable to come to different conclusions. Irregardelss of your opinion of how different developed strains of FEV at the same time makes much sense.[/spoiler:a175e70fb2]

[spoiler:a175e70fb2]I don't think you realise how little sense it makes. FEV was not supposed to be a mutagenic, it was supposed to be an immunity-enhancer to combat chemical warfare. The supermutants were an accident. And while the Fallout world is bleak enough to see the military happily experiment away on this horrible topic, the idea of a second military center that studies a variation of an accidental strain (what?) that has similar-yet-different results (and more negative ones, at that) makes little sense.[/spoiler:a175e70fb2]

 

[Ausir]

[spoiler:064f0a302e]I don't think you realise how little sense it makes. FEV was not supposed to be a mutagenic, it was supposed to be an immunity-enhancer to combat chemical warfare. The supermutants were an accident. And while the Fallout world is bleak enough to see the military happily experiment away on this horrible topic, the idea of a second military center that studies a variation of an accidental strain (what?) that has similar-yet-different results (and more negative ones, at that) makes little sense.[/spoiler:064f0a302e]

[spoiler:064f0a302e]Pretty funny how Vault-Tec having a Vault full of FEV seems to be a FOBOS rip-off. Unfortunately, this time it's canon.[/spoiler:064f0a302e]

 

[Brother None]

[spoiler:cb6085c74f]I don't think you realise how little sense it makes. FEV was not supposed to be a mutagenic, it was supposed to be an immunity-enhancer to combat chemical warfare. The supermutants were an accident. And while the Fallout world is bleak enough to see the military happily experiment away on this horrible topic, the idea of a second military center that studies a variation of an accidental strain (what?) that has similar-yet-different results (and more negative ones, at that) makes little sense.[/spoiler:cb6085c74f]

[spoiler:cb6085c74f]Pretty funny how Vault-Tec having a Vault full of FEV seems to be a FOBOS rip-off. Unfortunately, this time it's canon.[/spoiler:cb6085c74f]

[spoiler:cb6085c74f]Wait, it's Vault-Tec, not the military?

That's even worse, since VT is a civilian institution...I think we went over that for PoS back in the day[/spoiler:cb6085c74f]

 

[Ausir]

[spoiler:445e74c0e0]Wait, it's Vault-Tec, not the military?

That's even worse, since VT is a civilian institution...I think we went over that for PoS back in the day[/spoiler:445e74c0e0]

[spoiler:445e74c0e0]
Well, it's in Vault 87 according to this guy:
http://nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45710

And we don't know yet whether they originated there or whether they took the vault over.

As for VT being civilian, it's true, but it was part of the military-industrial complex, and with the whole Safehouse Project part of the Enclave's experiment, anything could happen. And at least, unlike FOBOS, they didn't acquire FEV secretly from the government but as part of the government's plan.

Not that I'm making excuses for Bethesda, but Vaults being experiments was one of the worst ideas in the history of the series anyway. Still, at least in FO2 the game didn't focus on it so much and the experiments themselves weren't over the top (although some of the Fallout Bible ones were - dunno if they came from Avellone or from Cain's original design document).[/spoiler:445e74c0e0]

 

[Brother None]

[spoiler:322df7f9c0]Wait, it's Vault-Tec, not the military?

That's even worse, since VT is a civilian institution...I think we went over that for PoS back in the day[/spoiler:322df7f9c0]

[spoiler:322df7f9c0]
Well, it's in Vault 87 according to this guy:
http://nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45710

And we don't know yet whether they originated there or whether they took the vault over.

As for VT being civilian, it's true, but it was part of the military-industrial complex, and with the whole Safehouse Project part of the Enclave's experiment, anything could happen. And at least, unlike FOBOS, they didn't acquire FEV secretly from the government but as part of the government's plan.

Not that I'm making excuses for Bethesda, but Vaults being experiments was one of the worst ideas in the history of the series anyway. Still, at least in FO2 the game didn't focus on it so much and the experiments themselves weren't over the top (although some of the Fallout Bible ones were - dunno if they came from Avellone or from Cain's original design document).[/spoiler:322df7f9c0]

[spoiler:322df7f9c0]Your face is civilian[/spoiler:322df7f9c0]