BigGuyCIA
Yer fond of me Lobster!
Witcher 2 came out super late for consoles, though. Granted, I don't know how far back their planning went and whether or not W2 releasing on consoles was planned at incubation.
Explain to me why Witcher 3 is good...
- Thread starter Hulk'O'Saurus
- Start date
I don't know if that was the case really, not that it would surprise me. But I see this quite often with Sequels where the mechanics of the previous game isn't expanded, but often completely reworked. And most of the time I am thinking, why? Sure no gameplay mechanic is perfect, but instead of always making a new one, take the old one and bring it to perfection. Most gameplay mechanics are not so bad that you would have to completely rework it, it usually needs fine tuning, a bit more depth and maye sometimes a bit of streamlining here and there.
They tried to release a different version of 1 on consoles so I'd imagine it was initially planned.
Well, I've played W1, read ALL of the books after that, and played all the other 2 and all DLCs. From a gameplay perspective I liked W1 and W2 better, because they were not open world. I would have loved that for W3, too, but they decided to jump onto that train, though it’s not as horrible as anticipated. So you say W3’s exploring is boring cause there’s nothing there? Fine by me. It takes place in 13th century, there is meant to be nothing there apart maybe from a logging camp, maybe a hermits hut or a monster’s home. I dont want to go exploring boring copy+paste-places again and again anyway. I have Skyrim and 2 3D-Fallouts to bore me with this.
To me, Witcher is all about it's notable characters. I just love how the games tell their stories, what drives them, and how all of them have their own flaws, sometimes leading up to disastrous results. Vizima Outskirts, saving Abigail is all I’m saying. Lots of saturated ravens there lately....
The thing I dislike about W2 and W3 is the hop-chop combat- too much jumping and rolling involved. But the click-wait-click-wait-combat of W1 was a crutch, too. Looked great, but felt stupid playing it after a while. The skills accompanying it were good, but the fighting visuals seemed rather clunky. From today’s perspective, I wouldve liked them to include mechanics similar to kingdom come. At least sword combat and combos there feel somewhat realistic and rewarding once you‘ve got it down. Rest of skills I dont care for, Geralt is 70% sword, 20% alchemy, 10% signs to me. Effect of reading the books I guess. Already raised an eyebrow when they introduced the x-bow to W3. Useless toy.
The thing making W3 great to me is that I expect story and relevant choices, the rest is secondary. I love the fact it’s enacted so well through all the dialogue, and having so many choices, sometimes all of them being different kinds of bad. The writing is just really good. I remember how 3 of my mates who played W3 at the same time as me couldnt realize how Keira Metz was still alive in my playthrough while they had to slaughter her. Why? Cause they behaved like insulted little dicks after they realized being used by her and voicing that in dialogue as well. Prime example.
To me, Witcher is all about it's notable characters. I just love how the games tell their stories, what drives them, and how all of them have their own flaws, sometimes leading up to disastrous results. Vizima Outskirts, saving Abigail is all I’m saying. Lots of saturated ravens there lately....
The thing I dislike about W2 and W3 is the hop-chop combat- too much jumping and rolling involved. But the click-wait-click-wait-combat of W1 was a crutch, too. Looked great, but felt stupid playing it after a while. The skills accompanying it were good, but the fighting visuals seemed rather clunky. From today’s perspective, I wouldve liked them to include mechanics similar to kingdom come. At least sword combat and combos there feel somewhat realistic and rewarding once you‘ve got it down. Rest of skills I dont care for, Geralt is 70% sword, 20% alchemy, 10% signs to me. Effect of reading the books I guess. Already raised an eyebrow when they introduced the x-bow to W3. Useless toy.
The thing making W3 great to me is that I expect story and relevant choices, the rest is secondary. I love the fact it’s enacted so well through all the dialogue, and having so many choices, sometimes all of them being different kinds of bad. The writing is just really good. I remember how 3 of my mates who played W3 at the same time as me couldnt realize how Keira Metz was still alive in my playthrough while they had to slaughter her. Why? Cause they behaved like insulted little dicks after they realized being used by her and voicing that in dialogue as well. Prime example.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
Agreed. I haven seen NPCs as well done as they are in Witcher 1; Thaler comes first to mind.To me, Witcher is all about it's notable characters. I just love how the games tell their stories, what drives them, and how all of them have their own flaws, sometimes leading up to disastrous results. Vizima Outskirts, saving Abigail is all I’m saying. Lots of saturated ravens there lately....
This was a feature that impressed me. It allowed Geralt to be an expert swordsman, and not be hamstrung by the player... while adding just enough of a gameplay element to engage the player; neither 'Click & Forget', nor 'Click until it's Dead'. Such a simple thing to get additional combat bonuses, and yet it required patience and attention—and all the while remaining plausible action by Geralt. In practice, the player approaches it the way Geralt himself might approach sword fighting; a rote behavior, that is part dynamic, and part by the numbers... and yet often impossible to get it perfect every time.
The combat in Witcher 1 is the best of the three IMO; and the most suitable of all, for an RPG.
Well, the swordplay in W1 does look impressive, but it also leaves Geralt wide open for attacks very often during the animations. Also he basically fights every opponent the same way, the only difference is the style and how many combos of a single style you slash before you start over. It's repetetive.
I still like it better than the hop-chop style of the later games, but it has its own flaws as well. At least at no point did they fall for the usual dual-wield crap (for Geralt at least) you see so much in fantasy-games and movies.
Thats why I like kingdom come's approach with actual fencing moves and styles so much. The game forces you to outplay your opponent and at least outside of duels there is no "winning-move" that will make you win each fight. Here also a dumb peasant and his woodcutting axe can end you if you dont fight properly.
I still like it better than the hop-chop style of the later games, but it has its own flaws as well. At least at no point did they fall for the usual dual-wield crap (for Geralt at least) you see so much in fantasy-games and movies.
Thats why I like kingdom come's approach with actual fencing moves and styles so much. The game forces you to outplay your opponent and at least outside of duels there is no "winning-move" that will make you win each fight. Here also a dumb peasant and his woodcutting axe can end you if you dont fight properly.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
As with any martial art training
; especially katas.I haven't played 'Kingdom Come' yet. Is it a mini-game of weapon strikes, or is it the character attempting different types of attack?
It comes again down to player skill vs character skill. The kind of combat you have in Kingdom Come is very bad suited for a game like the Witcher, not because the gameplay is bad, it's probably pretty good, but Gerald is a defined character, he's supposed to be an excelent swordsman with reflexes and strength far beyond what a normal human can reach due to his mutations beeing a Witcher. What really impressed me about the combat in W1, was the use of potions and oils if you played it on very high difficulty. I wish they would have keept it in W2, as they really simplified it.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
Everything gets ruined when tweaked for a mass audience in the hopes of a grand pay-day.
*Windows, MAC, Linux, Fallout, Bard's Tale, Witcher... ... ... TMNT, Dragon Age, Transformers, Hitchhiker's Guide... ...World History...
*Windows, MAC, Linux, Fallout, Bard's Tale, Witcher... ... ... TMNT, Dragon Age, Transformers, Hitchhiker's Guide... ...World History...
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Not sure I made clear what I meant. Of course a sword can always only slash or stab. And whatever you do, you'll use a variety of slashes and stabs combined with busy footwork. But in W1 you always use the same kind of those. Over and Over. Imagine hacking down 3 soldier-grunts in W1 who come at you one at a time. You switch to strong-style, click-1-2-3, first one dead. 2nd one comes, same procedure, 3rd comes same procedure.As with any martial art training
I haven't played 'Kingdom Come' yet. Is it a mini-game of weapon strikes, or is it the character attempting different types of attack?
Kingdom Come Combat in Spoilers.
In Kingdom come youre using actual moves from 15th century sword schools and there's 6 possible hitzones (5 directionals for slashing and either head or chest for stabs). Control with mouse is a bit hard at start but its doable, better than in For Honor. If you wanna block your opponent you need to counter his stance and then block, or hit block in a tight time-window when you see that your opponent will attack. This will enable an automatic "perfect" block, but the timing is hard to get down, especially if your opponent sends a hail of 3-5 consecutive strikes your way.
You can also use feints to pretend striking from a direction but actually switching it for the real attack.
And then theres combos which require getting a series of pre-defined directional strikes/stabs through without your opponent riposting, evading or dodging. Check this video for some combos:
When fighting 3-4 capable opponents you'll wish there'd be a "group-style" .
And also dont expect to even be able to HOLD your bow or sword correctly when you start the game. The bow's sinew will injure your forearm when your bow-skill is below level 5 and dont wear armour on your arms.
You can also use feints to pretend striking from a direction but actually switching it for the real attack.
And then theres combos which require getting a series of pre-defined directional strikes/stabs through without your opponent riposting, evading or dodging. Check this video for some combos:
When fighting 3-4 capable opponents you'll wish there'd be a "group-style" .
And also dont expect to even be able to HOLD your bow or sword correctly when you start the game. The bow's sinew will injure your forearm when your bow-skill is below level 5 and dont wear armour on your arms.
I would agree to some point with @Crni Vuk that ofc Geralt must have superior prowess with his blade and I also agree about the alchemy, I miss rubedo, albedo, nigredo tipped potions as well as the options for REALLY increased effectiveness of Oils too. But my point wasn't that combat should be more like kingdom come but rather that it should be more complex than throwing out random slashes and rolling around on the floor.
Yeah, more depth would have been nice. But I still believe character skill should see more importance than player skill in a game like the Witcher.
Hulk'O'Saurus
Still Mildly Glowing
Instead of this... well, I am sorry, but I will call it silliness, that we got with Witcher 3 combat, it should have just been something straightforward--a mix between Onimusha(which inspired Dark Souls) and classic Doom. Simple and clean. The Mark of Kri would be an interesting prototype to build upon.
Witcher 3, in particular, is bog full of incredibly bad choreographics, both for Geralt and Ciri. As a player, you actually spend some time doing nothing while using Geralt's most basic attack which involves him doing a full spin... something that has been proven time and again to not be effective in any way.
Because there's nothing there other than reskinned types of enemies you've already met, and the same gear with increased numbers. There isn't a forgotten Witcher manual that can teach you a new type of Sword Attack, or an old Potion that can make you a killing machine for short periods of time, or an unique Sign that has never been learned by the contemporary Witchers, or anything else than just easy, copy-pasted textures and repeated enemies with scaling, which also do unpleasant amounts of damage to your plinking if your numbers don't approximate.
Witcher 3, in particular, is bog full of incredibly bad choreographics, both for Geralt and Ciri. As a player, you actually spend some time doing nothing while using Geralt's most basic attack which involves him doing a full spin... something that has been proven time and again to not be effective in any way.
Because there's nothing there other than reskinned types of enemies you've already met, and the same gear with increased numbers. There isn't a forgotten Witcher manual that can teach you a new type of Sword Attack, or an old Potion that can make you a killing machine for short periods of time, or an unique Sign that has never been learned by the contemporary Witchers, or anything else than just easy, copy-pasted textures and repeated enemies with scaling, which also do unpleasant amounts of damage to your plinking if your numbers don't approximate.
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Agreed. Geralt is great with swords, he shouldn't be penalized in a game that's supposed to be a RPG just because I'm new to sword fighting. That's the good thing about RPGs to me, it's about the character skill not mine.
I used a potion like three times in Witcher 2? And one of those was emphasized that I needed it for the boss fight. I don't know if I really needed it or not. I liked the design of that game but the way potions worked with having to be out of combat completely to even drink them made me lose all focus on ever using them.
And I agree with Hulk'O'Saurus about the exploration. Outside of just powerful numbers that aren't completely necessary, there's not much reason to explore.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
No, I understood.
I remember watching the documentary about Witcher's sword choreography. They put a lot of work into it, but it's true that the number of moves are finite and oft repeated.
Of Kingdom Come: That combat looks very good. I am a fan of Treyarch's Die By The Sword. That game allowed full 360° control of the weapon and shield; it also shipped with a fully functional animation editor, that let the player design their own combat moves & combos, and hot-key them for use in the game.
However it is as I thought, a mini-game of weapon strikes, and not the character enacting the fight—it is the player in control of the sword, and presumably who manually blocks & parries...(or so it appears). Great fun... but awful for RPG combat IMO.
To use a twist on your example: Imagine hacking down 3 soldier-grunts and Geralt misses them with every swing & thrust—due to player timing errors, or unfamiliarity with the interface. Geralt is an experienced professional sword fighter, accustomed to frequent duels to the death, and he's not making the judgments on when to attack & defend... the player is. So it's not Geralt in the fight, it's the player pulling puppet strings; with none of Geralt's experience, strengths—or limitations!
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CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
IIrc, the spinning is part of the Witcher style of fighting in the books. Due to their enhancements via mutations, witchers use a different fighting style than most medieval fighting styles, said style taking advantage of their heightened reflexes and stabs. The spinning is only to pivot their swings into the next one.As for the exploration, I agree there isn't much unique loot or enemy types (especially with bandits) though it is to be noted that there are some unique loot due to the free DLCs with diagrams for unique Witcher gear (which are treated as the best gear in the game, aside from Iris and Arondight).
Incidentally, here's a vid on Witcher 3 I thought I'd share:
Eh, spinning still doesn't make a lot of sense in sword combat, regardless if you're a genetic freak with super powers or not.
AskWazzup
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
I'm still playing the game (currently level 25), but no exploration? I had a blast just riding around, finding witcher gear in abandoned, monster infested towers, temples, villages, finding letters that lead to long quests, searching for clues, diving in ship wrecks, sailing from island to island, playing card games with the occasional villager, racing horses. At first i did not like that there were very high level enemies with low level enemies mixed in, but latter on as you progress, i think it actually adds to the game, as you can go where ever you want and you can still find content for your level, while having to be cautious about not running into the high level enemies. For the first 16 levels i was just exploring all the wilderness and did not even touch Novigrad. I also managed to finish some quests and monsters that were way higher level than me, so there is flexibility to the system.
I do have some gripes with the game, as i think the combat is a bit too easy (compared to previous games, especially the fight with Letho in the elven garden) and lacks the boss fights from witcher 2, the alchemy part has been really simplified compared to the first game and there are not enough human models.
Otherwise, adding the great story, character interactions and lore that is grounded and fleshed out in the witcher book series to the already mentioned parts that i like about it, i don't see any other game of this scale that's better (although i have not played many games these past years). It has the part that i always really missed in bethesda games - exploring that leads to interesting content and stories, not just a bunch of spoons and rags.
I do have some gripes with the game, as i think the combat is a bit too easy (compared to previous games, especially the fight with Letho in the elven garden) and lacks the boss fights from witcher 2, the alchemy part has been really simplified compared to the first game and there are not enough human models.
Otherwise, adding the great story, character interactions and lore that is grounded and fleshed out in the witcher book series to the already mentioned parts that i like about it, i don't see any other game of this scale that's better (although i have not played many games these past years). It has the part that i always really missed in bethesda games - exploring that leads to interesting content and stories, not just a bunch of spoons and rags.