F2: Combat Overhaul Mod 2.0
- Thread starter Glovz
- Start date
@gvx
I found the problem, somehow the all three BB gun's had none for Caliber Type, which stopped them from accepting any type of ammo.
Strange, I never changed this value. I will have to speak to Cubik2k, may be another bug in his item .pro editing tool.
I will put up a fix soon. Please let me know if you find anything else strange.
EDIT:
Version 1.2 is up - should fix the bug with the BB guns.
I found the problem, somehow the all three BB gun's had none for Caliber Type, which stopped them from accepting any type of ammo.
Strange, I never changed this value. I will have to speak to Cubik2k, may be another bug in his item .pro editing tool.
I will put up a fix soon. Please let me know if you find anything else strange.
EDIT:
Version 1.2 is up - should fix the bug with the BB guns.
Not true, have you reviewed the google spreadsheet?LevaR said:
Take a look at the example outcome charts below all the stats, if you play with the AP Ammo Mod on then you can see JHP is better against soft armor and AP is better against hard armor.
If you were to play my mod with the Tweak on then AP ammo is only ever so slightly better than JHP.
If you are playing with the original damage formula then currently I am not sure of the outcome for any ammo in my mod.
I was talking about the tweak mod on. AP ammo mod alone is just too weird with 10mm ap doing more dmg to metal armor than to leather stuff.
Maybe you'd consider changing the 10mm JHP dmg_mult/dmg_div from 9/8 to 6/5 or 5/4 even and also give 10mm AP -5 or -10 dr mod so overall dmg of JHP would go up while making dmg of AP more linear as it should be imho.
The way I see it 10 mm pistol with JHP should start at for example 20 dmg to unarmored foes and go down by 2 every armor class and the same weapon loaded with AP should do about 12 dmg to all armor worse than metal and go down by 2 for each better than it.
Maybe you'd consider changing the 10mm JHP dmg_mult/dmg_div from 9/8 to 6/5 or 5/4 even and also give 10mm AP -5 or -10 dr mod so overall dmg of JHP would go up while making dmg of AP more linear as it should be imho.
The way I see it 10 mm pistol with JHP should start at for example 20 dmg to unarmored foes and go down by 2 every armor class and the same weapon loaded with AP should do about 12 dmg to all armor worse than metal and go down by 2 for each better than it.
The difference between JHP, AP, and FMJ ammo has been discussed a number of times within the forum.
I have tried to analyze how the engine works, what is used from the different game files, tried to guess at what may have been original intent by the game developers, take into account forum opinion, and finally formulate changes I think make sense.
Just by how the developers set up the values in the original ammo files tells me they had intended a reverse relationship betweem JHP and AP, but didn't get it quite right (reason for the AP ammo bug in the vanilla game).
AP = Armor Piercing, which means it doesn't break up on impact but can be deflected somewhat by somewhat soft/giving material
JHP = Jacketed Hollow Point, which means it breaks up on impact but can be stopped if a material is sufficiently hard enough
FMJ = Full Metal Jacket, which is tough, will pierce armor (not as well as AP) but will rarely exit the target
This is what I have tried to emulate with the values I've picked in conjunction with the AP Ammo Mod. I listed out the Tweak outcomes in the google spreadsheet to better show the difference of affect with the AP Ammo Mod.
This mod will not be for everyone, it will be for those who:
-Think there was an imbalance in the game with regards to items and combat.
-Like to decide what ammo would work best against which targets before taking a shot (one of the benefits of a turn-based rpg IMO)
I have tried to analyze how the engine works, what is used from the different game files, tried to guess at what may have been original intent by the game developers, take into account forum opinion, and finally formulate changes I think make sense.
Just by how the developers set up the values in the original ammo files tells me they had intended a reverse relationship betweem JHP and AP, but didn't get it quite right (reason for the AP ammo bug in the vanilla game).
AP = Armor Piercing, which means it doesn't break up on impact but can be deflected somewhat by somewhat soft/giving material
JHP = Jacketed Hollow Point, which means it breaks up on impact but can be stopped if a material is sufficiently hard enough
FMJ = Full Metal Jacket, which is tough, will pierce armor (not as well as AP) but will rarely exit the target
This is what I have tried to emulate with the values I've picked in conjunction with the AP Ammo Mod. I listed out the Tweak outcomes in the google spreadsheet to better show the difference of affect with the AP Ammo Mod.
This mod will not be for everyone, it will be for those who:
-Think there was an imbalance in the game with regards to items and combat.
-Like to decide what ammo would work best against which targets before taking a shot (one of the benefits of a turn-based rpg IMO)
I was under the impression that for the intended behavior of your mod you should have tweak mod turned on. Ap mod still looks strange with the reduced dmg of AP ammo vs leather but I guess I'll see how it works in game when you make it compatible with RP 1.2.
One more issue buggers me. Why did you make Super Sledge so weak compared to Mega Power Fist. Shouldn't they be comparable in damage? Same issue with regular Sledgehammer vs Sharpened Spear. Maybe you could lower ap cost of hammers to 4 to make them more in line with other weapons. I know they are supposed to be heavy and slow but 5 ap for attack cripples them too much imho.
One more issue buggers me. Why did you make Super Sledge so weak compared to Mega Power Fist. Shouldn't they be comparable in damage? Same issue with regular Sledgehammer vs Sharpened Spear. Maybe you could lower ap cost of hammers to 4 to make them more in line with other weapons. I know they are supposed to be heavy and slow but 5 ap for attack cripples them too much imho.
The sledges were always weaker than the power fists and both the spears and the sledges really might become over powered if adjusted further as they are weapons that show up early in the game.
This is what is difficult with game balance, those of us that have played many times want over powered weapons early because we want to get to the really good parts of the game faster. But think about a new player, if they were able to breeze through the first quarter of the game because of too powerful weapons, they would lose appreciation for the unique nature of the Fallout rpg world.
This is what is difficult with game balance, those of us that have played many times want over powered weapons early because we want to get to the really good parts of the game faster. But think about a new player, if they were able to breeze through the first quarter of the game because of too powerful weapons, they would lose appreciation for the unique nature of the Fallout rpg world.
Minigun Jim
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Bah. I want UNDERpowered weapons for longer so it feels more like Fallout 1. Unfortunately that would only make sense with more shantytowns added in.Glovz said:
Oh, and I finally figured how to summarize the difference in aims between you and F2WR. F2WR wants to make all the weapons generally useful. You're aiming to make the weapons less useful in every situation to encourage swapping armor, ammo etc to suit the situation. I want to call this the "Mass Effect Effect" but that may be rather silly
. Or indicate I played that game too much. Or that I just love crap puns.You misunderstood me. I don't want to have an easy game. I don't want overpowered weapons from the start. I agree with you that having to struggle early on is a part of fallout world and I'd never change that. But my issue with sledges is that they are damn useless. I like to bash people on the head with a big friggin' hammer but what's the point when sharpened spear is superior in all aspects and you get it for free in arroyo. It's the same with Supersledge. It had a bit weaker dmg than MPF but the same ap cost, now it has a bit better damage but needs 5 ap per attack while MPF is still a 3ap weapon. I'm not asking you to overpower hammers. I'd just like them to be comparable to other weapons that you changed. Of course it's your mod and you can do whatever you want but I think that my idea is quite reasonable.
LevaR said:
But there is a factor you haven't calculated into your logic, because it makes no sense: Weapon awesomeness. Whenever I want to mod something in F2WR, I go in and see how it works in the game, before I sit down and think about how it works in theory. I usually find that I have a kickass time busting heads with the Super Sledge, but that I end up strapping the Mega Power Fist on Sulik or Marcus, because punching people is just lame compared to ramming their head down in their bowels. Currently my character wears a Combat Leather Jacket, has a Sawnoff Shotgun in one hand and a Molotov in the other, while my teammates have Metal Armor, FN FALS and HK CAWSes. It doesn't matter, I'm still much cooler than them
That's also why I'd take an Improved Flamer over a Gauss weapon any day.Your point would be valid if all fallout players agreed one weapon is more awesome than other. We would have a powerful but lame weapon (i.e spear) and another weak but awesome (i.e sledgehammer). But since that will never happen my point still stands. Similar weapons should be roughly equally powerful.
Hmmm, I don't see it this way and unfortunately I'm not familiar with Mass Effect. Switching armor is not really what I was going for (but might want to be considerd), I am simply trying to rough up the linear progression of armor (weapons and ammo as well) a bit.Minigun Jim said:Oh, and I finally figured how to summarize the difference in aims between you and F2WR. F2WR wants to make all the weapons generally useful. You're aiming to make the weapons less useful in every situation to encourage swapping armor, ammo etc to suit the situation. I want to call this the "Mass Effect Effect" but that may be rather silly
@LevaR
I have considered your point of view and while I understand it, I don't believe it to be inline with the mod's goal of balance while maintaining variety. Non-linear progression is also a goal but is less in priority and has to have some compromise.
EDIT:
Oops
sorry for the double post
I have considered your point of view and while I understand it, I don't believe it to be inline with the mod's goal of balance while maintaining variety. Non-linear progression is also a goal but is less in priority and has to have some compromise.
EDIT:
Oops
sorry for the double post Minigun Jim
It Wandered In From the Wastes
@Glovz.
Alright then i got the wrong end of the stick there.
But, can you summarise the mods goals in one line or so? right now there's a big list of rules that's fine if you want to dig into the mechanics of the mod, but not to just see what it really changes on the surface.
You know, like the RP:
"Puts in all the stuff Black Isle left out"
F2WR:
"makes AP ammo, Laser Pistols, Sledgehammers, Grenades, Bozars and Assault Rifles work like they should"
Megamod:
"Every mod MIB88 thinks is fun"
However, the only thing I can see for this mod is it fixes the AP bug and somehow fiddles with the combat mechanics. It's not clear what it works out as for the player.
Alright then i got the wrong end of the stick there.
But, can you summarise the mods goals in one line or so? right now there's a big list of rules that's fine if you want to dig into the mechanics of the mod, but not to just see what it really changes on the surface.
You know, like the RP:
"Puts in all the stuff Black Isle left out"
F2WR:
"makes AP ammo, Laser Pistols, Sledgehammers, Grenades, Bozars and Assault Rifles work like they should"
Megamod:
"Every mod MIB88 thinks is fun"
However, the only thing I can see for this mod is it fixes the AP bug and somehow fiddles with the combat mechanics. It's not clear what it works out as for the player.
Off-topic, but I wanted to be clear:
I get to playtest certain sections, but I haven't even played all the mods I've included! I hope they are fun. I haven't played a game completely through from start to finish since, oh, September 2006! So, it should read: "Every mod that MIB88 has come across that contributes (or has the potential to contribute) to the game." Or maybe "Every mod he wants to put in, so deal with it." 
Minigun Jim said:
I get to playtest certain sections, but I haven't even played all the mods I've included! I hope they are fun. I haven't played a game completely through from start to finish since, oh, September 2006! So, it should read: "Every mod that MIB88 has come across that contributes (or has the potential to contribute) to the game." Or maybe "Every mod he wants to put in, so deal with it."
The one-liner:
"Brings back balance, brings back choice, brings back challenge, keeps the fun!"
I've never been good with catchy word combinations and given some of my goals are the same as Magnus, this is the best I could come up with. Maybe someone wants to come up with one for me? Bring on the flamers
"Brings back balance, brings back choice, brings back challenge, keeps the fun!"
I've never been good with catchy word combinations and given some of my goals are the same as Magnus, this is the best I could come up with. Maybe someone wants to come up with one for me? Bring on the flamers
Minigun Jim
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Glovz said:
I wasn't trying to persuade you do do a catchy jingle,
I just wondered if you could do an "idiot summary" for the mod. You made a lot of changes to the ammo values and damage formula, so even if the overall change is quite modest, the method is very complex. I can see the way you're working things, but not the end effect for them all. Thanks for the ammo hit tables though, that makes it a lot easier to understand those weapons.It'd be nice to have a short feature list like the RP or F2WR use.
I can see you've:
-Fixed AP/JHP bugs
-Stopped lasers sucking.
-Given Shotguns a form of armor piercing ammo.
-Made the different types of Rifles more powerful
-Made the different types of Shotguns show a lot of variation in damage.
..but it's not there on the main post.
If I were you, I'd stick the set of rules you used in a readme, and put a summary like that on the first page. That way readers can see at a glance whether the mod fixes what they want, and look at the documentation if they want to really get into it. You're clearly proud of how you pulled this off, but a chunk of design document is a rather in-depth introduction to a mod.
That's your own fault, you DID mod the flamers too!Bring on the flamers
*fires Flamethrower wildly*
@MIB88:
Whoops. Sorry mate, bad example.