not really as most people in the German Reich had some kind of idea about what the Nazis did. And its not like they really made a mystery around their plans.
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- Thread starter Mr Krepe
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hoho, yes they did. Maybe most citizend didnt knew about the "details" how many got killed or how they got killed exactly. But there have been a lot of rumors and informations available for those that have been looking for it. Dissapearing neighbours or relatives. And the propaganda by Göbels/Hitler made always clear what their plans have been (in the long run anyway).
The usual people have been very aware about the tracing of jews and minorities in the Reich. And many things have been known. This is proven by the fact that sometimes the Germans would talk about the topic on the quiet eventually speculating and many coming up with the conclusion that those in the camps would probably not return. There have been many informations leaking out. Either by soldiers doing their duty in those camps, people returning home eventually ( not just jews ended in those camps but many German prisoners as well like dissidents ended there as well). Many people have been attacked directly on the street, sometimes killed even. The night of violance on jews on Nov. 9–10, 1938. All this together with the proganda that was thrown out for some years would clearly show any inteligent person capable of logical thinking where this might lead to in the end ~ and infact many did. My neighbour told me for example about the experience from her mother which was around in the 30s and been witness to how some of the SA have beaten a jew very badly to death in a crowd of people looking when she aproached to the scene asking why no one did something helping the jew she got hit and the men yelled at her if she would want to be next.
The people might have been shocked about the real scope and numbers later but to say the usual citizen had no reason to suspect the holocaust is inacurate. As said many historical circumstances show clearly that the population had some foreboding. The time before and during the war just made it very easy for anyone to "close his eyes" literaly as that is what many did when the special troops or Gestapo would "again" come for someone in the night while any neighbour closed his folding shutter.
The usual people have been very aware about the tracing of jews and minorities in the Reich. And many things have been known. This is proven by the fact that sometimes the Germans would talk about the topic on the quiet eventually speculating and many coming up with the conclusion that those in the camps would probably not return. There have been many informations leaking out. Either by soldiers doing their duty in those camps, people returning home eventually ( not just jews ended in those camps but many German prisoners as well like dissidents ended there as well). Many people have been attacked directly on the street, sometimes killed even. The night of violance on jews on Nov. 9–10, 1938. All this together with the proganda that was thrown out for some years would clearly show any inteligent person capable of logical thinking where this might lead to in the end ~ and infact many did. My neighbour told me for example about the experience from her mother which was around in the 30s and been witness to how some of the SA have beaten a jew very badly to death in a crowd of people looking when she aproached to the scene asking why no one did something helping the jew she got hit and the men yelled at her if she would want to be next.
The people might have been shocked about the real scope and numbers later but to say the usual citizen had no reason to suspect the holocaust is inacurate. As said many historical circumstances show clearly that the population had some foreboding. The time before and during the war just made it very easy for anyone to "close his eyes" literaly as that is what many did when the special troops or Gestapo would "again" come for someone in the night while any neighbour closed his folding shutter.
But knew often enough otherwise. As said the important part is "chose" to believe. Ausir, you can believe me what I am telling youAusir said:
. THe Third Reich and it's history is not just a "hobby" for me. It's almost a obsession.
Huh, I am pretty much with Ausir here. Never ever heard that "most germans knew about it."
Rumors here and there are obvious, but hearing rumors isn't knowing what's really going on.
Rumors here and there are obvious, but hearing rumors isn't knowing what's really going on.
Threepwood
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Germans knew about the persecution of the Jews, as to wether the majority knew about Genocide, well.
As Hitler always stated, and intended, never to kill the Jews, it was made clear the state had no room for them. The common German was more than aware of this.
Germans were also aware of the many Ghettos formed wherein Jews were held and mass murdered.
As to wether there was widespread public knowledge on death camps, I cannot say, but the original concentration camps were in the public domain of information.
As Hitler always stated, and intended, never to kill the Jews, it was made clear the state had no room for them. The common German was more than aware of this.
Germans were also aware of the many Ghettos formed wherein Jews were held and mass murdered.
As to wether there was widespread public knowledge on death camps, I cannot say, but the original concentration camps were in the public domain of information.
Dont mistake "knowledge" with "facts" here please. We should not compare our knowledge today with the historical facts we know with the way people thought during the 30s.Lexx said:
If you have been a usual citizen around that time you definetly followed the Propaganda of the Third Reich over the 30s one way or another. And they particiularly Hitler made it quite clear what their target was with the jews ~ particularly if Germany would go in to war "So bedeuted es das Ende des Judentums in Europa ..." as it was said in many of his speches. Its like thinking that the Military around Hitler was never aware about his plans to prepare for war regardles of the 4-Jahres-Plan.
Thats the point. You dont kill some Millions of people in camps without people geting something aware about it even if they havnt seen it.Threepwood said:
I say it again. If people wanted to know about it they could have easily educated them self back then about it. It was visible for everyone ~ again you dont need to enter those camps to know it, you just need logical thinking and count 1 +1 together. Its just that for many it was easier to look away and pretend everything was alright when their neighbours dissapeared literaly over night. They didnt had the knowledge as we do today of course. But what do we expect ? THat everyone was runing around there watching how they died in the camps. There have been many signs. People just refused to read it. But there are many stories of people which exactly knew what happend out there. Even if not in detail.
Thomas de Aynesworth
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Let's steer away from the digression, it has no place in this thread.
Enclave 86
First time out of the vault
Tagaziel said:
I don't know about that, citizens on the Oil Rig talk about the Project.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/QCGENCIT.MSG
Richardson also makes reference to "It's been a long wait, and the work that has made this possible has been difficult" (I know the speech wasn't made but). Makes me think that the Project has always been the whole point of the Enclave and widely known, it's not like there interacting with wasteland politics and even taking land by force. They have a re-fueling base, trade for needed chemicals, they were in the Mojave for something (see loading quote) but thats it.
The Project was what they were all working towards, the thing which unified the Enclave, I find it hard to believe that only the top Brass knew about it.
Thomas de Aynesworth
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Any project that diverts millions of dollars in funds, thousands of men and women personnel, and uses a large part of the transportation and infrastructure of an entire nation, for the purpose of killing a massive group of people/mutants is impossible to keep secret. The Enclave is no different.
Enclave 86 said:
You post, yet you do not research. Here's president Richardson's draft of the State of the Nation address:
I hope you can see where's the proof that total genocide was a covert project.
Still can't see it? Click on the spoiler below:
[spoiler:47a233b883]
[/spoiler:47a233b883]
The citizens of the Enclave were not aware of the Projects aims or means, all they were told was that it was something that would reclaim the mainland for them.
Thomas, Cni, I hope you do realize the inherent difference between an entire nation and people stuck on an oil rig. It's quite a lot easier to keep secrets from the latter.
Crni Vuk said:
Ask the average American why the rest of the world kinda hates us and he'll be hard-pressed to mention the millions dead in Vietnam, the hundreds of thousands dead in the Middle East, and the ridiculous number of "skirmishes" perpetrated by the US military in Latin America, Africa and the Balkans, to say nothing of the proxy wars the US is funding.
Or, to put it another way,
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair
Enclave 86
First time out of the vault
Tagaziel said:
But what then? Even if the Enclave waits months for the virus to finish everyone off, how do they explain the fact that everyone just dropped dead? The people of the Enclave know that wasteland civilisations exist, like how would Shady Sands be explained, 3000 rotting bodies in the streets in a clearly post-war city?
I realise it's all speculation but I don't see why the Enclave brass would keep it secret only to have to explain it after the fact, wouldn't that just cause unrest between people like Richardson who were for it and the Enclave members who may have been against it had they been told?
Nalano said:
Wow you guys don't watch much TV with shadow goverments and such, don't you?
-> "Our scouts on mainland have reported of a sudden virulent outbreak, which seem to have killed all life on the mainland."
After such an statement you can even explain why you've to put every surviving human you find into quarantine (were they naturally die after some short time).
@on the Nazi Germany discussion
Even though i didn't want to post something about this discussion, i don't come around to remark one thing.
Focusing only on jewish victims when discussing the topic of concentration camp and ghettos is wrong, because you ignore alot of other victims. Poles, Soviets, politcal enemies, romani people and more and more.
Enclave 86
First time out of the vault
Bad_Karma said:Nalano said:
Wow you guys don't watch much TV with shadow goverments and such, don't you?
-> "Our scouts on mainland have reported of a sudden virulent outbreak, which seem to have killed all life on the mainland."
After such an statement you can even explain why you've to put every surviving human you find into quarantine (were they naturally die after some short time).
The people of the Enclave aren't stupid, some desert because they find diagree with the Enclave's policies on shooting the odd trespasser, we're talking about the death of everyone in the entire world. A supposedly un-specified way of re-taking the mainland (though if not through genocide I cannot see what else it could be?) is announced as successful and then months later or whatever EVERYONE is dead; from the Shady Sands to a hermit living alone is a shack in the middle of the wasteland. Oh yeah and shortly after the Project is announced everyone gets an innoculation for something (I realise they could explain this away but the Oil Rig is supposed to be sealed, people aboard it are known to be very pale because they can't go outside, "why would innoculations be common place?" is what I am thinking).
UncleSlappy
First time out of the vault
Why would inoculations be commonplace when a population that's been in a largely sterile and completely sealed environment ventures into the outside world?
Think you answered your own question.
Think you answered your own question.
Hoh yes. I never claimed that any of the Enclave citizens knew about their plans. They knew that tribes and outsiders have been treated very harsh but even many of them seen the way how Horigan did it as "nutz". So I doubt most knew about the President plans. And when I see how the enclave remenants you encounter in Vegas act is a proof in my eyes.Tagaziel said:
Yes. Thats true particuilarly as the propaganda by the Naziparty (already since the 20s) did mentioned the destruction and conquering of the east / bolschewik block just as they did with destroying the jewish population. If people explain they didnt expected this from Hitler thats something I might even believe. But simply to say they didnt "realized" it is in my eyes inacurate. The German people ~in general have been well aware about changes and many even with the propaganda didnt believed in a victory of the German army past 1943.Bad_Karma said:
Yes but I hope you do see the difference between "not knowing" like no one ever told you anything or there have been no signs to read and the general "unwillingess of learning" about a subject.Nalano said:
To say people back then in the 30s and 40s didnt knew about the holocaust (of course not the way as we do today of course!) is inacurate as there have been enough signs and ways to learn about it just as today many can educate them self about either politics, economy or what ever else they want. Granted today with the internet and free (mostly) publications it is today easier then ever to get access to informations. And I know a lot of US Americans which are very educated. But it was not impossible for people in the Third Reich to get some insight. And many did. As many Germans tried to fight the Reich silently and helping jews hiding families in their apartments, cellars and other places even if people didnt "knew" it with absolute assurance that jews (and others) have been killed in the camps it was clear for many that the Reich hasnt sent its dissidents and enemies in to some amusement park and many had some foreboding about what might happen with the people once they dissapeard. You dont need to send everyone in to gass chambers. They killed many simply by inhuman threatment of simply labor. Even Himmler made coments on it that he didnt cared about if 100 or 1000 would die in the construction of some anti-tank ditch as long the ditch is finished in time. There are to many examples of people which told about that time. The myth that the Wehrmcht was a "clean" army while every crime has been done by the SS is just as wrong for example. When the officers walked around his men asking who would be willing to do some target practise with the machinegun everyone knew what that meant. Killing of prisoners. And just as here things have been labeled differently maybe instead of "sending them to a death camp" you say "sending them to the reformatory", instead of "killing" you say "special treatment". Different languange. Same meaning. Like the Double Speak you know
"deliberately constructed for political purposes: words, that is to say, which not only had in every case a political implication, but were intended to impose a desirable mental attitude upon the person using them."