Falklands

[Tremer]

Crni Vuk see this?

Also I have been in the Argentine Army and currently am in the army reserve, so if a war were to occur me going to the front lines wouldn't be such a far fetched concept.

First off, let me assure you that there is plenty of people here willing to take a rifle and fight to the death for them. Including myself.

Well now you know that our military did not learn anything about the Malvinas War. most of the people of Argentina do not want a war and never make the mistake of starting another war. We try to settle the matter diplomatically.

Now go and read the previous pages there you will find our reasons for wanting the island again. If you do not seem them important ... there is nothing else I can say to convince you because to any country these should be enough to try to get back the land that belongs to them.

Gonzalez why did you had to say we wanted a second war, i really supported before that, you did make excelents points before. But Crni Vuk seems to focus in only the bad things you said.

 

[Gonzalez]

Gonzalez why did you had to say we wanted a second war, i really supported before that, you did make excelents points before. But Crni Vuk seems to focus in only the bad things you said.

I never said we wanted a second war. I even said that a war today was never going to happen, for a number of reasons. I also said that is always better to resolve conflicts with dialog than with force. I made clear in previous posts that the war that did happened was for the wrong reasons, because of the negligence of two presidents (Galtieri and Tatcher) that only wanted popularity at the cost of humans lives.

Also most vets I herd talk about the war were "malvineros" and in many cases professional military or even officers. So yeah, I can't speak for every single conscript.

But if this whole issue is about me saying we wanted a second war, then let me tell you I never said that. In any case then Crni Vuk must have misinterpreted what I said.

What I did said is that I am willing to fight and die in the defense of my country should it come to that. The Malvinas are part of my country.

 

[TheGM]

I am not so sure if I really believe you. My experience with history and learning about wars tells me that most veterans if not completely brainwashed have rather mixed feelings about wars.

Not to mention that if you really serve in the argentinian military then I am not sure how possible it is to talk about the situation with you without any bias. As said. This is not meant as offense. But that would be like asking a Serbian soldier about his opinion about if Kosovo is rightfully a part of Serbia or not completely ignoring the bigger picture. As said. I don't claim to know much about the Falklandwars.

But again. Ask your self if that thing this rock in the ocean is really worth to wage a war for? Was it even back then when they did fought the British. I am not saying that their claim has more right then any Argentinian claim on that island. But maybe you should ask your self what purpose it had back then and what purpose it serves today. Was it really the feeling of "nationality" that gave the Argentinian leaders the idea to conquer the Falklands? Or have there been other reasons behind it. If already the British, French, German or US government cant be trusted why the Argentinian? All politicians act only in their own interest. Throw around the "patriotism" and "propaganda" phrases around when it fits them. As real patriot though one should as well question his own motivations and particularly the motivations of his government. Right or wrong are many times not a question of black vs white. I can only talk about my experience as Serbian. And I am really sorry when I think about how much damage was done for generations because of the same rhetoric stuff I read from you now.

Claims and what ever else which caused only aggressions, wars endless conflicts hate and what ever else. And in the end it really helped only the "elite" which actually should lead the people while the common man sitting with his rifle in the hole dieing for their targets had nothing from it.

Since argentine is seen today as emerging market I think it would be far better to actually concentrate on education, social reforms and the economy instead of building eventually a military or even thinking about the Falklands. I think the population will have much more from this then any potential aggressions.

But that is just my humble opinion.

See what your problem is you are using "Logic" and "Reason" and if you have read the posts that "I" have read, then you would have "seen" that "logic" and "Reason" are not part of the Argentinian claim to the islands.

And that is why "I" support the Argentinians on this.

They my kind of Crazy!

 

[.Pixote.]

What I did said is that I am willing to fight and die in the defense of my country should it come to that. The Malvinas are part of my country.

So take a boat there and reclaim your lost country, and if any pale British dog tries to stop you, smack them in the chops. And on the way go to Cyprus and kick those dirty English bastards in the balls, because they still occupy a small part of that country as well, much to the displeasure of the local Cypriots.

Gonzalez you need take your mind off these things, go out side and enjoy the day, the sun is shining, the birds are tweeting, there are better things to do then obsess over two little islands 500km off the coast of Argentina. You'll end up going gray...

Tension between the two countries mounted because the British exploration rig, Ocean Guardian, is on its way to the Malvinas/Falklands Islands where it will arrive in a few days. It will be used by British firms Desire Petroleum and Rockhopper Exploration to drill for oil in disputed waters 160 km north of the archipelago. 

 According to geological surveys carried out in London in 1998, there could be 60 billion barrels of oil in the area around these southern islands, which lie 1,800 km from Buenos Aires and 12,000 km from London. Desire Petroleum's own studies have confirmed close to three billion barrels of oil.

I think this is all about the money.

 

[Gonzalez]

I love how the debate went down to "Oh just forget all about it, they're just two little islands no one cares about".

Sure, let others walk all over you and have his way around with what's yours. Just let them get away with everything. I think not.

So I'll go back to a previous quote.

"A person who doesn't defend what he has or what belongs to him doesn't deserves what he has... When a man walks down the street with his mother and a gang attacks her, he defends her beyond loosing or winning or whether he has the means necessary to do so or not, he must fight." -Pablo Marcos Carballo.

So for me it's quite simple. Even if force should be the last resort, and today's disputes should be settled by negotiation, dialog and international law, if you claim something is yours you have to be ready to fight for it.

Britain already tried to invade Buenos Aires twice before, if we would have just "given up" we wouldn't even be a nation today, and we wouldn't have deserved to.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I love how the debate went down to "Oh just forget all about it, they're just two little islands no one cares about"

Yeah but well if that is the truth? I mean com on we are not talking here about hidden nuclear missiles on the Falklands aiming at your nation.

I see why it is pissing you off and I DO understand it. But I just think it is not realistic to expect the Brits giving up that rock. Diplomatic pressure or not. don't hope for changes for the next 50 years at least. Any war between the Brits and Argentine will likely end with a victory for Britain. And if your nation would have access to nuclear weapons then we will never see a conflict.

Gonzalez why did you had to say we wanted a second war, i really supported before that, you did make excelents points before. But Crni Vuk seems to focus in only the bad things you said.

Of course I see that he makes some valid points. But fact is that if you ask me as someone who has read both opinions here then it seems that the "claim" on the Falklands by the Brits has pretty much as much value like the Argentinian claim. If we leave out the geographical distance. Particularly as it seems that the mindset on the Falkland isles is rather British then South American. But that could be only propaganda. I mean it is not like they really explain in detail the argentinian view on the situation here.

Who said I wasn't biased? Still doesn't mean I'm wrong, just biased.

Thats the whole problem here though since you know ... quite a few people actually try to explain you here that it is not about "right" or "wrong". Particularly not when it comes to "historical" claims.

 

[Gonzalez]

I just think it is not realistic to expect the Brits giving up that rock. Diplomatic pressure or not. don't hope for changes for the next 50 years at least.

I don't care if it takes 100 years, but if you just give up and let them do what they want then you already lost. They can't get anything out of those islands without south american cooperation, and they will not have it as long as they don't return them.

The desire petroleum is a company that makes profit cheating unexpecting investors out of their money. All their "estimations" are bull. One day they say they have found to be zillions of gallons of oil so they can sell their shares at high prices, and then say "Oh, we were wrong". They still haven't found squat, and they have been drilling for a long time. All they found was a drop of oil that's not even good quality. And what are they going to do if they find oil anyway? Build an oil duct under the ocean 12.000 km all the way to the UK? Because sure as hell we won't let them come trough here.

I sure hope there is no oil there, the brits will sure be quick to return the islands then.

 

[.Pixote.]

I sure hope there is no oil there, the brits will sure be quick to return the islands then.

Nope...oil or not they won't hand them over, so how about buying them, let's say 1 trillion dollars.

 

[Gonzalez]

Nope...oil or not they won't hand them over, so how about buying them, let's say 1 trillion dollars.

Feel like trolling?

 

[Geech]

I love how the debate went down to "Oh just forget all about it, they're just two little islands no one cares about".

Sure, let others walk all over you and have his way around with what's yours. Just let them get away with everything. I think not.

So I'll go back to a previous quote.

"A person who doesn't defend what he has or what belongs to him doesn't deserves what he has... When a man walks down the street with his mother and a gang attacks her, he defends her beyond loosing or winning or whether he has the means necessary to do so or not, he must fight." -Pablo Marcos Carballo.

This sounds like a good argument in favor of Britain's refusal to relinquish their claim.

 

[Gonzalez]

How so? Mind being more specific? Unless you refuse the british took the islands by force from Argentina without provocation during peacetime while there was an argentine population there.

 

[Geech]

The "how so" is that fact that the islands have been under British control for 180 years. Maybe they should belong to Argentina morally, but they don't and haven't for a long time.

I actually find your arguments fairly persuasive, although I find the intensity of your zeal to be a huge turn-off. However, it doesn't do any good to ignore the legitimacy of the British claims. These are British islands, and a nationalistic Briton could use the exact same argument you just did to support keeping them.

That was my point.

 

[Gonzalez]

My arguments are not created by me, but taken from people wiser than me who know more about the claim than I do, and I'm sure the way I presented them is not the best either. Good thing then that I'm not a diplomat and just a stubborn argentine army reservist. That's why they would send me to fight and not to a courtroom.

Also the point of the british being there for whatever amount of time would only had any sort of validity if we had said nothing when the brits took the islands and then we did 180 years after the fact.

The theory of land belonging to you after a given time has passed is not accepted by every country and even those who do accept it say that is not valid if someone disputed you being there in the first place.

 

[Crni Vuk]

yeah but you could as well argue that the Brits are determined to defend the island just as much as Argentine to "get it". The Brits proved that they would fight for it to keep it.

So again. If you ask me their claim just holds as much water like any argentinian claim. That is without blaming anyone of them here. The stronger party wins in this case. Its not fair. But its how it is. Sadly.

 

[Jebus]

This is all so silly, and so 100 years ago.

Argentina launched a war of agression in order to annex territory, and they lost. In accordance with any precedent I can think of, this means they lost any and all moral claim and possibility of sympathy for all time. It's that simple.

I'm not British, don't give a fuck about the Falklands, and think wars over territory are just about the most stupid things humans ever do; but if it ever comes to another Argentine war of agression over the Falklands the Brits would have my full support, as I imagine the support of just about everyone outside of Latin America.

I think it's time the Argentines just let the damn thing drop and move on. I mean, 180 years? You don't still hear the Dutch pining about South Africa (or Belgium for that matter), or the Swedes pine about Finland, do you? For fuck's sake.

 

[Sander]

I think it's time the Argentines just let the damn thing drop and move on. I mean, 180 years? You don't still hear the Dutch pining about South Africa (or Belgium for that matter)

Well, you do hear some. Groot-Nederland bitches!

 

[Jebus]

I think it's time the Argentines just let the damn thing drop and move on. I mean, 180 years? You don't still hear the Dutch pining about South Africa (or Belgium for that matter)

Well, you do hear some. Groot-Nederland bitches!

You can have it, for all I care. Damn how I hate this 'country'. I'd rather be Dutch than live in this sorry excuse for a 'democratic' federation...

 

[El Pagano Loco]

Well, you do hear some. Groot-Nederland bitches!

Afrikaner power?

 

[Crni Vuk]

I guess that similar very well known look to another symbol is not a coincidence.

 

[El Pagano Loco]

Don't judge them, negros took their lebensraum.