Fallout 1 or Fallout New Vegas?

if you like that style of jokes more power to you, I'm just very happy the game doesn't have Monty Python characters by default
It's not that; it's how it is in the proper series. The later FO2 devs just didn't understand the setting. Most of their special encounters were goofy, and none of them should ever have existed inside of a town or anywhere that the local population would plausibly know of them. That stuff is for the deep wasteland.
 
I like that Wild Wasteland was optional. As much as I love Fallout 1, randomly encountering the Tardis and a Star Trek shuttlecraft was something I could do without tbh. Not that I'm a loser that hates fun, I just prefer the more nuanced references. As Tim Cain said, references to pop culture in Fallout should be something you can gloss over and not even realize, something that Fallout 1 itself breaks with these type of encounters, and something that led to Fallout 2 shoving them into every corner. New Vegas already has plenty of silliness I enjoy with characters like Fantastic baked in, the kind of Fallout humor I love.
 
That's the point, it's supposed to be a blank slate. You are supposed to come up with a backstory for the character and respond to quests based on that character's backstory and personality, that's called roleplaying. It should try its hardest to make the character a blank slate because many people don't want unwanted backstory to their character.
It doesn't work if your character is part of said setting and interacted with ir previously. Your character should be part of the setting and if he isn't he can't be a real person, therefore, i can't take it seriously.

Theres a reason The nameless one in PS:T, the mai. Character at disco elysium and even the main character of F:Resurrection have some degree of backstory + some characters who will recall them within the setting. The reason being that they actually exist within the setting so even if the player have a reason to build a personality and an identity from scratch, the character isn't a ghost.
That's because the game doesn't have a dedicated antagonistic main force to go against regardless of choices, it's up to the player which one they want to go against.

And how are the NCR, Mr. House and Legion weak as antagonists?

Which is probably the main reason why it lacks a strong antagonist.

Also my god, if you think the NCR is a strong antagonistic force maybe this is self-sufficient as an answer to the question?


How does the Legion make no sense? They made perfect sense to me. Uniting everyone under one banner through brute force because the way the wasteland has been operating has clearly not been working. Is it extreme and in the real world they would be considered terrorists? Yeah, but the wasteland in Fallout is not the real world, it has a complete different context to our world.
Trying to make a huge militia consisting of 86 tribes in which all of their military force dress themselves in Roman customes and restrict the usage of firearms to upper ranks (most respected praetors), all based in a philosophy that wasn't supported by hegels and was only credited to him as a misconception which was born from the internet, even if the internet doesn't exist in the Fallout world? Yeah, i don't really buy the faction. They are very lucky the NCR is so incompetent



First, it's not a fact that it has mostly forgettable characters because i remember most of them. Second, i find most of them to be far better written than the ones in Fallout 2. the game you seemingly think it's better. New Vegas has overall far more consistent writing quality in their characters compared to 2 because Fallout 2 is inconsistent in its quality because of its rushed development.
You found arcade ganon better written than Myron?

No bark more of a memorable person compared to Jimmy jigged J?

Lily a better written super mutant PM than Marcus?

I actually have a bit of a hard time remember the other characters to compare. They all seem extremely bland.

I guess mr house is memorable enough. Boone is generic tragic char, Veronica is way too much of a dreamer to make any impression on me, most of them like to give you too much exposition on the player to make any effect on me.

Not much of a surprise as John gonzales wrote a good part of this game and knowing his work on Horizon:Zero dawn. Guy just isn't very good at writting characters.





Edit: Also, how is 2 better than 1? 1 is the better written, far more consistent in quality of the two. Improvements to gameplay and UI hardly make up for the inconsistent tone and writing quality in 2.
Tone is more consistent in 1. Consistently bland. Hardly something i would call much of a victory.

I have no idea why everyone have this impression that 1 is this super grimdark game, when this is only the case for the very finale.

In the main game in less than 3 hours i faced a group of self-entitled "thieves circle" who were a weird ass guild of thieves in which their leader had a quirky accent, got out of there and found a shady business man fighting a sheriff,etc.... Not even the raider encounter in the khan base was "bleak" per se. It doesn't make up for what 2 brings to the table

Specially when:

*quests are quite disconnected from one place to another and very few seem to have an impact in other areas of the map.

*Evil runs are almost impossible. You get way too much positive karma for doing the main quest stuff and barely any negative karma for siding with evil npcs. You NEED to go out of your way and murder entire settlements to get an evil rep. Which is pretty much a cartoon villain, the negative reactions won't work properly too.

*different ammo types don't work in Fo1, they all have JHP default values.

*despite the timer being there, most npcs tell what they know about the waterchip or other locations right away if you ask. If you try a highly urgent run you'll ignore all side content because the game is not as focused as you could remember. The lack of people asking you for deeds in exchange of information + the lack of people who outright would lie to the player character is one of the reasons the characterization is weaker than in 2.

*As previously commented, characterization is rather weak outside of talking heads.

* Karma ss the only rep system is a mistake.

*Lack basic QoL improvements obviously

*Companions are useless and shouldn't be in the game.

*Far too easy to even remotely attempt to be grim-dark

*Lackluster Weapon itemization with only 1 smg, 1 AR, 1 minigun,etc... Pistols mostly cost 5 AP which makes no sense for pistols in-universe and it lacks variety.
In fact, theres only 3 big guns in this game lol

* Almost no choice and consequence outside of Ending slides but i will admit that this is partially due to the removal of mutant invasion schedules post 1.0.

* Locations don't seem like real places due to lack of characters. They use far too many stock characters and theres almost no content in most locations, a bunch of empty structures and empty space either. Aside from the hub its quite hard to say locations were strong in F1 even if they were more thematically cohesive when looking from a macroscope.

*Lack of reactivity is quite notable here.
 
At some point you concede that the story exists in a more "realistic" sense. A bullet hitting your unprotected skull is going to kill or nearly kill you in real life and it's fine that it does the same in the opening scene of New Vegas even if you can take a few to the head in the game before being near that state.
In game design, we learn that the more elements have strong emphasys on the story/thematic, the most importance we have to give said element to stand out and have importance in the plot.

If a game revolves around starvation and general lack of food, there should be an in-game mechanic to illustrate that so the player understand the importance of said thematic.

In fo1, a game that kickstart with the idea of dehydration, we, the player character are affected by bad encounters when we don't have water in our inventory because even if not necessarily polished, they understood that Water was important for that game.

Its not impossible to make an rpg in which your PC was a victim of fatal wounds, but if the game won't go out of its way to make it palpable, its all talk and no substance.

If Combat was lethal enough that 1 headshot would either let you near-death or kill you outright, we would know that the initial incident was a big deal. As it is, the mechanics are not in harmony with the game's premise and this is a flaw.
 
It doesn't work if your character is part of said setting and interacted with ir previously. Your character should be part of the setting and if he isn't he can't be a real person, therefore, i can't take it seriously.
The Courier existed before New Vegas, it didn't appeared out of thin air. The Courier is not an 100% blank slate, but it mostly a blank slate.

Also, several dialogue options in the game where the player can shape the backstory of the character. Like where they came from, or if they were in a specific place, and so on. I'd take interaction i can choose myself than being forced into ones i don't want.

Your argument also applies to the Chosen One in Fallout 2. The only thing you know about the character is that they are from a tribe of people, literally nothing else is told to the player. How is that any different than someone taking a job to deliver a package?

Which is probably the main reason why it lacks a strong antagonist.
So because it has three antagonistic forces means it lacks a strong antagonist. I fail to follow the logic.

Also, are you gonna tell me the Enclave is a strong antagonistic force? They are paper thin in Fallout 2 and have the most cliched plan in fiction. They are only inches away from being worthless because some people in the oil rig give some modicum of depth to the faction. But compared to The Master or Legion they are woefully subpar.

Ironically New Vegas adds much needed depth to the Enclave with the Enclave Remnants.

Trying to make a huge militia consisting of 86 tribes in which all of their military force dress themselves in Roman customes and restrict the usage of firearms to upper ranks (most respected praetors), all based in a philosophy that wasn't supported by hegels and was only credited to him as a misconception which was born from the internet, even if the internet doesn't exist in the Fallout world? Yeah, i don't really buy the faction. They are very lucky the NCR is so incompetent
That's an horribly over-simplification of the Legion, but okay.

You found arcade ganon better written than Myron?
Yes. But i like both.

No bark more of a memorable person compared to Jimmy jigged J?
I had to google to remember who the latter was.

Lily a better written super mutant PM than Marcus?
I like both. Both are also in New Vegas.

Not much of a surprise as John gonzales wrote a good part of this game and knowing his work on Horizon:Zero dawn. Guy just isn't very good at writting characters.
That's hilarious because the game is only memorable to me because John Gonzales writes a lot of great characters. And it's clear something was lost when he left Obsidian.

Tone is more consistent in 1. Consistently bland. Hardly something i would call much of a victory.
I have no clue how someone can think this, but it is what it is, i guess. I'll take Fallout 1's "bland" tone over Fallout 2's if it means much more consistent good writing and characters, and not all the goofy shit that isn't even the pop culture references.
 
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Your argument also applies to the Chosen One in Fallout 2. The only thing you know about the character is that they are from a tribe of people, literally nothing else is told to the player. How is that any different than someone taking a job to deliver a package?
The chosen one has a family, friends and a lot of people who know him as a character. Which is the main difference.


Also, are you gonna tell me the Enclave is a strong antagonistic force? They are paper thin in Fallout 2 and have the most cliched plan in fiction. They are only inches away from being worthless because some people in the oil rig give some modicum of depth to the faction. But compared to The Master or Legion they are woefully subpar.
No, but Frank horrigan is. He has the strength and intimidation + Charisma of a fearsome antagonist even if he is very simplistic in nature, it works as a force to be reckoned with and you certainly have the idea that you may need to fight that brutish at some point in the story.

He is also a breath of fresh air nowadays since he doesn't pretend to be idealistic or anything. He is an irredemable asshole who cannot be convinced. New vegas only would have a memorable antagonistic figure in Dead money with Elijah.


Ironically New Vegas adds much needed depth to the Enclave with the Enclave Remnants.
Not going to deny that. The enclave in general were always a pathetic faction prior to that.


That's an horribly over-simplification of the Legion, but okay.
Not necessarily, most of their "depth" come from this basis, when you know that the pillars make no sense whatsoever its easy to notice they are just another evil faction.

Some try to defend it saying that Caesar looking stupid while being convinced that he was an intellectual was the point. I disagree since this misconception regarding Hegel's dialectics was born and spread from internet speeches. He quite literally wouldn't have this idea if he ever had read hegels, so its more of an "obisidian felt to fake articles" rather than an in-universe irony.


Power to you then. I found arcane extremely bland


I like both. Both are also in New Vegas.
He is a returning character, but nothing stands out about him in Vegas aside from the fact you already knew him. His dialogue in Fo2 is still unmatched.


That's hilarious because the game is only memorable to me because John Gonzales writes a lot of great characters. And it's clear something was lost when he left Obsidian.
I find his style of writing way too focused on the storytelling rather than construction of character writing. Rarely anybody lied to me, fooled me or had interesting character arcs/weird humanly behaviours that made them stand out as characters. But again, i never liked his writing. I had a better time in the dlcs exactly because Avellonne wrote them (even if Ulysses was a really bad character).


I have no clue how someone can think this, but it is what it is, i guess. I'll take Fallout 1's "bland" tone over Fallout 2's if it means much more consistent good writing and characters.
Power to you. I don't find Fo1 bad, its a very good game and the main story is certainly stronger than Fo2's bs

The overall writing however. Never stood out to me, not even the dialogue options for answering people seem very fleshed out while in Fo2 there was a lot of self characterization you could choose ranging from very cynic answers to sadistic and such.

I still remember when zaius asked me if i was new to broken hills and my 10 INT character could go for:

"No, genius, I've been living here all along and you never noticed me."

You can really be a fucking asshole in that game.

You can be completely oblivious either and go around telling people about holy artifacts and stupid shit like that. The game has a lot of options for stuff like that, which i found mostly lacking in Fo1
 
Which characters? I haven't played the game, care to elaborate? All I found was this article that states he wrote the main quest and served as an editor for other writers.

Since i hadn't elaborate let me give an example

Rost is a father figure to alloy and one of the most important characters for Alloy's character dev

However he is a tool for the plot and as such he is extremely perfect about everything. He is exiled, treated like shit and excluded by the people he protect, but he keeps being a good samaritan and often sacrifices much of himself while giving Alloy all the affection he can.

Because dude has no flaw whatsoever he always has the moral ground and is alwaya right, not different from Liam neeson's role in Fo3.

As the story progresses he makes sure to give you every possible looser flag from promising to do something with alloy in the future to the sad goodbye without much of a reason just to make it obvious that his role in the story will be only "the one character that has to die so Alloy has a motivation to do what she does".

Thats my main issue with much of gonzales's writing. He gives preference to plot instead of characters and as such instead of having a bunch of characters which naturally tie up to the main narrative, everything is nothing but a tool for the purposes of storytelling.
 
you're right, they are just as terrible as day they were created
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Since i hadn't elaborate let me give an example

Rost is a father figure to alloy and one of the most important characters for Alloy's character dev

However he is a tool for the plot and as such he is extremely perfect about everything. He is exiled, treated like shit and excluded by the people he protect, but he keeps being a good samaritan and often sacrifices much of himself while giving Alloy all the affection he can.

Because dude has no flaw whatsoever he always has the moral ground and is alwaya right, not different from Liam neeson's role in Fo3.

As the story progresses he makes sure to give you every possible looser flag from promising to do something with alloy in the future to the sad goodbye without much of a reason just to make it obvious that his role in the story will be only "the one character that has to die so Alloy has a motivation to do what she does".

Thats my main issue with much of gonzales's writing. He gives preference to plot instead of characters and as such instead of having a bunch of characters which naturally tie up to the main narrative, everything is nothing but a tool for the purposes of storytelling.
What's your relationship
like with your father?
 
I like that Wild Wasteland was optional. As much as I love Fallout 1, randomly encountering the Tardis and a Star Trek shuttlecraft was something I could do without tbh. Not that I'm a loser that hates fun, I just prefer the more nuanced references. As Tim Cain said, references to pop culture in Fallout should be something you can gloss over and not even realize, something that Fallout 1 itself breaks with these type of encounters, and something that led to Fallout 2 shoving them into every corner. New Vegas already has plenty of silliness I enjoy with characters like Fantastic baked in, the kind of Fallout humor I love.
While I agree, I do think Wild Wasteland does it pretty well and the fact it's optional is a good thing. For Fallout 1, I'd also argue that the TARDIS is the only kind of encounters like that in the first Fallout. Which these are essentially locked behind levels of Luck so it's not like everyone will see them. Of those though, the most egregious one is the call box or TARDIS, the rest might reference something but they work well enough within the world or as a thing that makes the player think, "Huh? what in the world? Is my character hallucinating?" instead of "Huh? I don't get the reference."

- The alien ship references Elvis Presley and Area 51, sure, but it's not like either of those things are trendy topics of that current decade. People still know about and talk about these things. It's an American thing, it's part of our cultural zeitgeist and may one day fade into obscurity but not nearly as quickly as joke lines in a comedy movie or this year's rising popstar.
- Bob's Pre-Owned Car Mart has a reference to A Christmas Story with the BB Gun but if you don't know about it, it's not that weird and you might think it's just some pre-war brand.
- The brahmin herd saying moo! and moo, I say are references to a prank Tim pulled on someone in a MUD he played. Without knowing about that, it just seems weird and wild but hey, so are two headed cows.
- The giant footprint is probably runner up to the TARDIS one because it is a reference to either one or both of these: the original concept for the game or Bambi Meets Godzilla (or something else Godzilla). Which, I still think is fine because it's not like Godzilla shows up on the screen or someone starts describing Godzilla here. It's just a big solitary footprint, that's weird. You'd imagine that you're probably dehydrated at this point.
- Nuka-Cola Truck has no real world references as far as I can tell.

The unusual call box is the worst of them because it does feel out of place. A game made in the 90s set in America in the 2160s. Sure, the game was inspired by older and current sci-fi from the 50s up to the 90s. But none of it really evokes the Dr. Who image from what I know of and have seen of Dr. Who. Maybe the Daleks? It does feel out of place not only because of all the special encounters, it's the easiest to know it might be a real life reference but even if you can't tell it's a reference, it's a British telephone booth not the ones Americans probably see often. If it was an American one, it'd probably feel strange as hell still but not as much as a British design of something appearing in California.


Regarding John Gonzalez's work on New Vegas and later games:

Here's a crazy idea, quit attributing a body of work like a video game to one person. Even one aspect of a video game has a team of people on it and people who oversee what they do and direct them to make changes or improvements.
Gonzalez didn't write everything in New Vegas and I doubt he wrote everything in the Horizon games. When Gonzalez is brought up for discussing writing in New Vegas, I think it's more so to shine a light on someone who did a lot of framework for the game yet doesn't get the attention that more prominent figures get. Ultimately, I think the work Gonzalez and other writers contributed were not only good but Sawyer recognized that they were good and didn't push back on their ideas to be altered. Who knows how it went at the other studio for Gonzalez and other writers working on those games. It could have been a very different topic.
Also, even if Sawyer did like it, if some higher up came in and said, "Well, we're trying to market towards Y instead of Z and what you've given us is not doing that. Tell them to change it." He'd probably have to start compromising or pushing for changes.

It's not a doodle, it's a piece of work that requires a ton of hours of work. And if that's going to get done in less than a few years, you are going to need a lot of people working on it and someone who steers the ship of people.
 
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Here's a crazy idea, quit attributing a body of work like a video game to one person. Even one aspect of a video game has a team of people on it and people who oversee what they do and direct them to make changes or improvements.
Gonzalez didn't write everything in New Vegas and I doubt he wrote everything in the Horizon games
I dont, however, when Josh sawyer explicitly says what kind of things everyone did for vegas and almost every part i didnt find forgettable or i outright liked isnt attributed to the boy + after the GCC conference about HZD pretty much pointed such aspects to the guy i can't help but feel like he is atleast in a big part responsible for it.

In the same vein everyone will throw the bad writing on Beth games to Emil i see Gonzales writing as something quite easy to perceive in my games :smug:
 
I dont, however, when Josh sawyer explicitly says what kind of things everyone did for vegas and almost every part i didnt find forgettable or i outright liked isnt attributed to the boy + after the GCC conference about HZD pretty much pointed such aspects to the guy i can't help but feel like he is atleast in a big part responsible for it.

In the same vein everyone will throw the bad writing on Beth games to Emil i see Gonzales writing as something quite easy to perceive in my games :smug:
Got a link for the GCC conference? I'm curious to check it out.
At the very least I think the skeleton of fighting over the Dam and the factions were good, which I believe Gonzales wrote
 
Got a link for the GCC conference? I'm curious to check it out.
At the very least I think the skeleton of fighting over the Dam and the factions were good, which I believe Gonzales wrote


Theres also one that is not from the GDC, but in which he is the speaker and gives a lot of details about it:

 
I dont, however, when Josh sawyer explicitly says what kind of things everyone did for vegas and almost every part i didnt find forgettable or i outright liked isnt attributed to the boy + after the GCC conference about HZD pretty much pointed such aspects to the guy i can't help but feel like he is atleast in a big part responsible for it.

In the same vein everyone will throw the bad writing on Beth games to Emil i see Gonzales writing as something quite easy to perceive in my games :smug:
From what I've read and watched before, he's attributed with writing the central plot of the story, concepts for the casinos, and designing the Three Families.
The characters of Benny, House, Vulpes Inculta, Ricky, Stella, Randall Clark's logs, Yes Man, Caesar (with contributions from Sawyer), Davison, and Victor. Also writing a lot of the Casa Madrid apartment NPCs.
He also created and conceived Lanius (with Avellone writing the dialogue), The Forecaster, and conceived and designed the Boomers faction.
No idea if he wrote the Three Families, Boomers, or The Forecaster's dialogue though.
And he wrote Cold, Cold Heart quest and that makes sense since he wrote Vulpes Inculta.

If you can tell that the parts of the writing you disliked were very obviously Gonzalez, that's fine.
But I will say that I also find it ridiculous how people attributed (nearly) every writing mistake in Bethesda's Fallouts to Emil. I don't think that Emil is solely responsible but I'm also not a fan of him. I wasn't so heavy on that hatewagon. I think the issue a lot of games face are as a team's whole "machine" and not the individual cogs. I feel similarly about other projects that often involve 20-100+ people working on them who must make concessions not only to their fellow coworkers and leads but also their upper management and their budget/revenue ratio.

My issues with most designers, writers, directors, etc. come from what they say they aim for or value in interviews. Sawyer has rarely made me scratch my head while Emil has made me scratch my head a lot. Figuratively, of course. I think he's probably a good writer but not for RPGs. And that's my personal take on it. But what's wrong with Fallout 3 or 4's writing is not something I'd solely or largely attribute to him. If I have, it was probably a long time ago and I've changed the way I think about this sort of thing. I also know that these projects span the course of over a year so remaining consistent isn't easy and sometimes the worst thing you made makes it to the end of the project while some of your best concepts or ideas can get lost in the sauce.

I think Avellone pitched the initial plot/framework but Gonzalez wrote it. But I can't remember if that's what was said or not so I could be wrong on that.

Avellone was writing Havel, I mean Kreia, I mean Ulysses for the base game but it didn't have time or space in it for him. As well as Rose of Sharon Cassidy. He also wrote Lanius but didn't design/create him, and wrote for General Oliver in the final act. He wrote All Roads graphic novel, a lot of the areas of Mojave Outpost and REPCONN Headquarters and provided assistance to Gonzalez regarding the story and related character dialogues since he hadn't worked on branching narratives much.

According to mobygames.com and igdb.com, Gonzalez was the lead writer; Chris Avellone, Eric Fenstermaker, and Travis Stout were writers; and Tess Treadwell, George Ziets, Jason Bergman, Nick Breckon, Matt Grandstaff, William Noble, and Andrew Scharf provided additional writing.

Travis Stout is credited with Raul Trejada, Lonesome Road's ED-E, Waking Cloud, Follows-Chalk, Salt-Upon-Wounds, Lily Bowen, and Bert Gunnarsson. And designed Talen Pool questline.

Eric Fenstermaker is credited with the content and concepts of Vault 11, Beyond the Beef, Craig Boone and Veronica Santangelo's dialogue and companion quests. Might have wrote Cliff Briscoe and created Fantastic, No-bark Noonan, and Silus. He wrote Mr. New Vegas's radio lines.

So we know for the companions that of these four writers someone wrote: Raul, Craig Boone, Veronica, Lily, and Rose of Sharon Cassidy.

Joshua Sawyer wrote/designed Arcade Gannon. Akil Hooper wrote/designed ED-E and Jesse Farrell wrote/designed Rex. Hooper and Farrell aren't credited as writers but as area designers. Sawyer is obviously listed as the project director but also lead designer and system designer.

All of this and while it is a majority of the major NPCs, it's nowhere near half of the ones in the game and these lists are including DLC characters. Who wrote the rest of them? It's why I think projects like this are generally hard to pinpoint a singular reason who is at fault.
I find his style of writing way too focused on the storytelling rather than construction of character writing. Rarely anybody lied to me, fooled me or had interesting character arcs/weird humanly behaviours that made them stand out as characters. But again, i never liked his writing. I had a better time in the dlcs exactly because Avellonne wrote them (even if Ulysses was a really bad character).
This is all fair but I do find it weird you think no one ever tried lying to you or fooling you when Gonzalez was directly attributed with Benny and Ricky. Both which fit this criteria and I could see similar arguments for House, Caesar, or Victor if you want to frame it that way. Benny tries to get you to leave the casino floor and go to a room to "talk" which is a trap. If you saw it coming, that's fine, but he does lie to you in an attempt to fool you. Ricky is a compulsive liar but it was pretty obvious and played to comedic effect. But others believe him enough to have hired him for the caravan's journey in the game's world.
 
Emil is still credited as the lead writer, so of course people are gonna attribute the bad writing in the Bethesda games to him since he pretty much has the last word on the writing in the final product (outside of maybe Todd, but i don't think Todd cares if the writing sucks).

Yes, games are done by multiple people, but there are still a few individual people that steer the ship and call the shots. Even if you are the one responsible for a part of the game, the one (or multiple people) leading the project will have a say if it goes or not or if any changes need to be made.
 
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