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Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by Morticia, Apr 25, 2008.
Well said, Minigun Jim. I completely agree.
I disagree, let me explain. My point would be - YES, you CAN go to NR (and if you start solving quests you get real nice exp) from the Den and nobody's telling you you can't. YES, you CAN shortcut to Navarro and do what you want. There are loads of such examples. Ergo, YES you CAN actually find a strong weapon mid-way through. Also, don't forget you need ammo for that weapon.
EPA is a high tech place (read it a gazillion times) - shouldn't the equipment stay hi-tech?
So, why do you let locations stay free, and not the same with equipment? Nobody's forcing you to go to Navarro early, but if it's possible, there will be players who will. Should we change that? Yeah, let's change that! Why not change the entire game so you can only go to "the next city" and only get the equipment you "deserve"? Let me repeat myself - nobody's forcing you to use it. Pretend it's not there. Role play
Leave the equipment and think of it as a choice... Why should you have the choice on where to go, but not on what to use or what could be found?
Why not disable the (quick) save in the game? Cause there are ppl who go to Navarro (or NR) and use save every 3-4 secs to avoid all encounters... Cheaters! Let the people play as they like.
P.P.S. I really don't care what killap does with the gun. I like talking and discussing, to hear what other people think
Well, I guess I might say what I think as well...
The "imba" weapons there don't really bother me. In Fallout you can get very strong in the beginning if you just know what you are doing so it doesn't matter that much. Also, I never have any skillpoints in energy weapons at that point anyways, so those weapons just ended up in the trunk of my car.
...which you were carrying with you.
I'm not going to argue whether the west area of sublevel 3 is blue or indigo. I was just trying to clarify why the area under the warehouse was referred to as blue (even though it has no color).
Here is the map from the walkthrough:
True, but it shoud be fitting to the location. SAD is the place where I expect weapons, EPA is more on the scientific side, pre-war holodisk, skill-books, XP, drugs and stimpacks some experimental drugs that permanently boost stats, maybe an energy-conservation-kit that lets you recharge energy-cells in sunlight... And of course a broken G.E.C.K... This is the high-tech I would expect from the Enviroment Protection Agency. On the weapon-side Cattle-prods and needler-guns maybe one or two hunting rifles in case one of the animals runs amok.
Neither pulse-and plasma weapons nor a Gattling-Gauss-Gun is what I expect from that location.
But you're right, none of us play the game for the first time, so we have a sense for which equipment would be adequate on your current level and which wouldn't. So it's more a matter of temptation and self-discipline...
I've recommended more than one first-time-player to wait for F2RP final before playing, since it's truer to the original FO2 intentions...
OK... Now, imagine high tech (which EPA is), top security, need-to-know-location (you can't get it by "searching" sectors, you gotta know where it is), state-of-the-art research facility. Don't you think that, though there may be less security (in form of guards, hence less weapons) than in a military base, that security would wield state of the art, modern and best weaponry?
OFF TOPIC: Marcus might find the metal armor of the Lieutenant in the Maripol Millitary Base(Going in naked against the Enclave Derrik is too hot for him)... <------- will this be inserted? 1 tiny little piece of metal armor wearable by mutants?
Same here. Both my brother, my girlfriend, and one of my best friends will be playing through Fallout 2 for the first time with the upcoming release of Killap's restoration mod.
Wow, I am quite flattered to hear that. I better make sure 1.2 is perfect then.
Definitely. Or else...
Well, you have a thread full of eager beta-testers, a bug-list to check 1.2 against, etc. What could possibly go wrong? =]
That's what I'm saying. In an open game like FO2, then it's fine to skip ahead, but by doing so you're running up against harder foes/puzzles than you're equipped for, so you need to be careful or prepared. Cassidy and Vic with Pulse Pistols will blow away everything in the next few sections of the game in a couple of shots, and there's no effort or risk in getting them.
Putting weapons in at a slightly higher power level than New Reno would prevent the game from being a cakewalk as soon as you get the EPA guns. RPGs should be balanced for the average player who wants to progress through the storyline, not the speedrunner who wants to get the best equipment or stats ASAP. Otherwise you mess it up for everyone. Normal players feel the game's too easy after a point, and speedrunners don't get the challenge of trying to "cheat the system" if there's a game-breaking cache half way through.
You should get the choice of where to go, but not what to find there. That way, you can get the best stuff early but ONLY by figuring out a way to get to the late-game areas in one piece. Otherwise there's no point in the trade system, weight limits or a range of weapons, as all you'd ever need to do is pick up the MKII Power Armor, super Sledge and Gauss Rifle with 500 rounds that the Elder absent-mindedly left in her flowerpot in Arroyo. If you want imba gear early, use a hex editor. The RP's supposed to make it the game it should have been, and fix all the bugs and really silly exploits.
World of Fallcraft?
I don't get you at all... I divided your post by numbers so I can address your post more easily.
1. You're saying it's ok to skip ahead? It's players choice, right? ANd that this is an open game?
2. Again, you're saying it's players' choice, right? Skip ahead (we're not talking about cheating - cheating is doing something that shouldn't be in the game, and going where you want to go was meant to be in it) if you want to, don't if you don't. If it's too hard for you the way you are, try elsewhere & come back later... it's an open game
3. Shouldn't that be players choice as well then? Yes, there is effort since you need to get the location of EPA, you cannot find it. You still gotta play half of the game up to that point. Plus, does it say anywhere you MUST take those weapons? That Vic and Cassidy MUST use them?
1. You still gotta GET those guns, it's not like they're handed to you at the beginning as a "shiny-boom-boom-sticks" when you exit ToT. Some people may not even find EPA... Btw, don't forget you gotta get ammo for that weapon. And secondly (what I don't get why nobody wrote) - if there's no difficulty in getting those weapons, what the heck are they still doing there? Wouldn't some wonderer already picked em up? That's the first thing that popped in my mind, not the "they're overpowered" thing...
2. Show me a balanced OPEN RPG game... Please, do. Also, how are those weapons balanced for a speedrunner? Speedrunner doesn't even go to EPA... WAAAAAAAAAAAAY off course. And you're saying that those 2 guns balance the entire game on the side of the speedrunner? Wish I had the conviction you have...
3. What are you trying to say here?
1. Wait a minute - are you for or against an open game? You can't be pro-location & contra-stuff. And then again pro-some stuff & contra some-other stuff. Also, I really don't get what all those things would be doing at Arroyo... But if you want em there, put em, feel free. But I understand what those guns would be doing in EPA (check previous post).
2. I have no intention of using a hex editor. I cannot understand what I'm reading... You regarding this as a bug and/or silly exploit??? Then remove STEALING, cause it ain't fair. "Imagine, some idiot "cheated" the game by stealing the shotgun from Metzeger and using it to help the Lara quest..." "Lara quest? I didn't get that quest! Let's make it a part of the MAIN story so I get it!" Or stealing a bozar from NCR guards while doing the scout to NCR quest. Moron/noob - cheater. Or, imagine - some guy has a 4 man party and I have only 3. Let's remove charisma & put a 3-party-limit cause fights with a large party are much easier/silly exploit... Let's remove outdoorsman skill cause it ain't fair for some guy to choose what encounter he wants and I don't get that choice, I always get attacked...
All in all, you wrote nothing that would change my mind. No real arguments, nothing much, just a "that's-better-believe-me" post. You just want to delete and remove one of the possibilities presented to a player. Main word - POSSIBILITY. And why? Cause you think and say that's better for everybody. You want to force everybody to do the same thing. And yet, nobody's forcing you to use what you find. Do you have any restrain? Or you just must use everything you find? Heck, while we're at it - I saw some "noob" trying to beat the game by using only a sharpened spear - doesn't he know that that weapon is far too weak to use in that place? Let's take it out and make him use a sniper rifle.
And just to make sure, since you already have me painted as a hex edit-er and a speedrunner in your post - I have no such intentions nor do I understand people who do such things. I just like having options. It would be great if this game "dropped" items according to your lvl - i.e. if player lvl <16> then drop Laser rifle, etc. But that ain't the case. So it makes it impossible to balance the game, at least in my opinion.
Your arguments would be fine, if Killap were creating a total conversion or his own game, but he makes a mod for an existing game.
If Killaps mod were the "EPA-mod" or the "Killap's Vision" mod then your arguments would be fine as well, but he makes a mod that fixes and restores the game to fit to the developer's vision.
If you could only get the EPA location from Navarro or the Hubologist-Mainframe then your arguments would be fine too, but placing end-game weapons in an early mid-game area can be considered something between cheesiness and outright cheating.
Placing one (or more) solar scorcher(s) somewhere into EPA would fulfill your need for high-tech equipment and fit much more into the concept of the Environmental Protection Agency than a powerful energy weapon with "inefficient energy usage." (And it would match the developer's vision too, since this is where the solar scorcher was originally supposed to be found...)
There is already a mod where you need a lot of self-restraint not to pick up a minigun right after the Den, and once in the Vault City area use it to ambush a patrol and get enough Combat armor to outfit the whole party AND get the combat implants...
And how does he, or you, know what was the developer's vision?
As for everything else - I agree. Nice post *THUMBS UP*
The EPA design docs created by the original devs.
Can you say with certainty that everything that was in the docs was implemented? As for each of those things that weren't - why not? Cause there was no time or did they DECIDE not to put it in after all?
Those docs are a 2-way argument
Anyways killap, what are you doing POSTING online? You're here to read and change what's not right in game, not write. So go back to work, toil toil TOIL!
Are you arguing for arguing's sake?
EPA was supposed to be an environmentalism and polution-control research agency. They're supposed to find ways for energy conservation, equiping their security staff with the most energy-wasting weapons of their time seems a bit counter-productive (though I have to admit, in a weird ironic way fitting to pre-war society)
From the gameplay perspective, EPA was supposed to be in the New Reno area/phase (after Klamath,Den,Modoc,Vault City, Gecko) this is where Killap placed it, so you should stumble upon the EPA somewhere between the introduction of laser weapons, and the plasma rifle at SAD. Effectively you take plasma and laser weapons out of the game at this point.