J_Fred
Long time lurker
They work fine together because one is overwriting the work of the other. You would get Magnus' armor but YAMM's bullets. Not that this would directly be undesirable, but it may cause some weird issues.
Fallout 2 mod Fallout 2: Weapons Redone v2.3
- Thread starter Magnus
- Start date
Thacker
First time out of the vault
Quick question regarding the armor item files and the critter armor files:
If I want to make some personal changes to the armor, and want to make sure they propagate to the critters, do I simply need to copy the edited files into the "critters" folder? I.e. if I change anything in items/armor, just copy that newly edited file over into critters.
Thanks!
If I want to make some personal changes to the armor, and want to make sure they propagate to the critters, do I simply need to copy the edited files into the "critters" folder? I.e. if I change anything in items/armor, just copy that newly edited file over into critters.
Thanks!
J_Fred
Long time lurker
No, the critters folder only has the creatures in it. copying those armor files over wouldn't change anything (or may even cause issues).
You'll need a critter editing tool (FuCK is the only one I'm aware of) to alter the base stats of most NPCs and critters. I never could get it to work correctly (I wanted to alter XP earned, as well as alter some base stats of certain creatures), it seemed to overwrite my changes each time I started the game. I set the files to read only after I alter them, still no help. I reached the point where my patience, skills and desire for my custom mod crossed, and just gave up.
Now, if any NPC wears these armors, I'm not sure if they get the extra stats or not, or if their stats are base. In other words I don't know if the base stat for an enclave soldier is comparable to the hero character in Power armor, or if the soldier has average human stats and the armor is stacked on it.
You'll need a critter editing tool (FuCK is the only one I'm aware of) to alter the base stats of most NPCs and critters. I never could get it to work correctly (I wanted to alter XP earned, as well as alter some base stats of certain creatures), it seemed to overwrite my changes each time I started the game. I set the files to read only after I alter them, still no help. I reached the point where my patience, skills and desire for my custom mod crossed, and just gave up.
Now, if any NPC wears these armors, I'm not sure if they get the extra stats or not, or if their stats are base. In other words I don't know if the base stat for an enclave soldier is comparable to the hero character in Power armor, or if the soldier has average human stats and the armor is stacked on it.
J_Fred
Long time lurker
Thank you dude. I actually just got Cubik's mod. It is much better than FuCK, though the previous program was definitely useful in its day.
Lightbringers and the 14mm are still useless weapons. 
The 14mm should range around 30-40 dmg. Maybe increase the use by 1 Action point too, because of the kick back when fired. But it should always have at least a serious amount of knock down chance by hitting the enemy !
!
We are speaking of high caliber armor breaking anti tank ammo. If you are un-armored it just knocks you down after it turned you into swiss cheese.
And if you are heavy armored, it seriously knocks you from your feet because of the heavy impact! After it broke through your suit of armor.
Stop nerfing or not fixing the anti tank gun. It is less common than the .233 Pistol in terms of ammo. So it is even from an RPG Game standpoint out, a no brainer, this gun have to pack a punch! The .233 is an awesome gun yes, combined with much nostalgic. But it is still just half the caliber.
If Lightbringers cannot be stronger, so reduce the AP for firing. Even in Fallout 3 you need less AP for laser weapons. Maybe increase the range, up to 40-45? As i know for light, it travels far.
And last but not least. The Plasma weapons should be more powerfull in general. Double the usage of Micro Fusion Cells if you must. Generating that amount of heat requires much much power. Maybe reduce the firing range down to 30 too.
And only Advanced Power Armor + MK II and Tesla Armor should be able to deliver a decent amount of protection. Against Plasma weapons.
Think about the sheer amount of heat plasma has or generates.
A normal plasma welder cut through 7cm thick unhardened steel in mere seconds. So only armor designed to defend such weaponry should hold a candle against them.
With this changes, the most annoyed things in Fallout 2 would be solved, at least for me. Energy weapons are what they should be, an alternative or primary choice and somewhat powerfull.
And a failed implemented hand gun finally comes to life, after such a long time.
Without overpowering all other weapons.
Last thoughts;
Maybe all handguns should get less range, and rifles a bit more. Maybe with the close range penalty for rifles in single shot in general, not for burst if that is even possible by the game engine. That would push the perk "Bonus Move" a bit. If ppl try to keep a bigger distance for the sake of their rifles. And SMGs could not rip you to shred anymore from a landside big distance.
sry for my bad english. And no, gTranslator does worse
The 14mm should range around 30-40 dmg. Maybe increase the use by 1 Action point too, because of the kick back when fired. But it should always have at least a serious amount of knock down chance by hitting the enemy !
!We are speaking of high caliber armor breaking anti tank ammo. If you are un-armored it just knocks you down after it turned you into swiss cheese.
And if you are heavy armored, it seriously knocks you from your feet because of the heavy impact! After it broke through your suit of armor.
Stop nerfing or not fixing the anti tank gun. It is less common than the .233 Pistol in terms of ammo. So it is even from an RPG Game standpoint out, a no brainer, this gun have to pack a punch! The .233 is an awesome gun yes, combined with much nostalgic. But it is still just half the caliber.
If Lightbringers cannot be stronger, so reduce the AP for firing. Even in Fallout 3 you need less AP for laser weapons. Maybe increase the range, up to 40-45? As i know for light, it travels far.
And last but not least. The Plasma weapons should be more powerfull in general. Double the usage of Micro Fusion Cells if you must. Generating that amount of heat requires much much power. Maybe reduce the firing range down to 30 too.
And only Advanced Power Armor + MK II and Tesla Armor should be able to deliver a decent amount of protection. Against Plasma weapons.
Think about the sheer amount of heat plasma has or generates.
A normal plasma welder cut through 7cm thick unhardened steel in mere seconds. So only armor designed to defend such weaponry should hold a candle against them.
With this changes, the most annoyed things in Fallout 2 would be solved, at least for me. Energy weapons are what they should be, an alternative or primary choice and somewhat powerfull.
And a failed implemented hand gun finally comes to life, after such a long time.
Without overpowering all other weapons.Last thoughts;
Maybe all handguns should get less range, and rifles a bit more. Maybe with the close range penalty for rifles in single shot in general, not for burst if that is even possible by the game engine. That would push the perk "Bonus Move" a bit. If ppl try to keep a bigger distance for the sake of their rifles. And SMGs could not rip you to shred anymore from a landside big distance.
sry for my bad english. And no, gTranslator does worse
J_Fred
Long time lurker
Have you tried this mod?
The laser pistol is about as damaging as a combat shotgun, and it's more consistent against armored opponents. If it's still not good enough for you, try tweaking the ammo rather than the guns themselves. I personally put the AC/DR reduction of small energy cells at -20/-5, and Micro Fusion cells at -25/-10. This means they both ignore a good bit of AC (accurate), and ignore some armor DR (penetrate as energy weapons should). The base ammo isn't as powerful as 2mm EC, 14mm, or even .223 and 7.62... but the energy weapons are.
I suggest tweaking the values as you see fit, but I like Magnus' weapon base stats, so I just tweak the ammo a bit.
The laser pistol is about as damaging as a combat shotgun, and it's more consistent against armored opponents. If it's still not good enough for you, try tweaking the ammo rather than the guns themselves. I personally put the AC/DR reduction of small energy cells at -20/-5, and Micro Fusion cells at -25/-10. This means they both ignore a good bit of AC (accurate), and ignore some armor DR (penetrate as energy weapons should). The base ammo isn't as powerful as 2mm EC, 14mm, or even .223 and 7.62... but the energy weapons are.
I suggest tweaking the values as you see fit, but I like Magnus' weapon base stats, so I just tweak the ammo a bit.
*Meanwhile, in a parallel universe*
..all right, so lemme just move my mouse a micrometer more to the left so I can give exactly 50 ammo to my support gunner, that's such a convenient user interface... oh and I guess my medic can use these brass knuckles since she's level 20 and thus automatically does 20 damage with brawling, I'll just give her one skill point in it so she hits 70% of the time even though she has 1 in Strength, Coordination and Speed, wow what a great game design, and hey look, there's a monocle, I'll give that to her as well so she can PUNCH PEOPLE 4 METERS AWAY, man, I sure don't miss perks instead of trinkets, oh and then I'll just -
*LIGHTNING CRACK*
Whuh? Where am I? Is... Is anyone here? What's that anthropomorphic bear dude doing, he's freaking me out... he's pointing at a big file with a version number on it, I can't read it, it says 2... 2 point 3 point something...
Wait a minute... I have been here before. This place... it takes me back to a simpler time. Dare I say, a better time.
It's time.
..all right, so lemme just move my mouse a micrometer more to the left so I can give exactly 50 ammo to my support gunner, that's such a convenient user interface... oh and I guess my medic can use these brass knuckles since she's level 20 and thus automatically does 20 damage with brawling, I'll just give her one skill point in it so she hits 70% of the time even though she has 1 in Strength, Coordination and Speed, wow what a great game design, and hey look, there's a monocle, I'll give that to her as well so she can PUNCH PEOPLE 4 METERS AWAY, man, I sure don't miss perks instead of trinkets, oh and then I'll just -
*LIGHTNING CRACK*
Whuh? Where am I? Is... Is anyone here? What's that anthropomorphic bear dude doing, he's freaking me out... he's pointing at a big file with a version number on it, I can't read it, it says 2... 2 point 3 point something...
Wait a minute... I have been here before. This place... it takes me back to a simpler time. Dare I say, a better time.
It's time.
Dravean
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Holy shit. Never thought I'd see you around here again, Magnus. It's a Halloween miracle!
J_Fred
Long time lurker
Nice!
I was using your mod for quite some time Magnus. Excellent work. Check out Phobo's economy mod, he's got some good ammo ideas as well (but he uses YAMM).
I was using your mod for quite some time Magnus. Excellent work. Check out Phobo's economy mod, he's got some good ammo ideas as well (but he uses YAMM).
There are some truly amazing mods out here now, I plan on giving them all a try eventually.
For some reason though, I don't want the game to become *too* realistic or difficult, even though that's something I usually appreciate in an RPG. Fallout 2 has never been about survival, realism or even good gameplay to me, it's more about that "it's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine" vibe... that special something you can't put your finger on, like the reason why vinyl sounds better than CDs...It's okay to me if some of the game mechanics are broken. Some of the vacuum tubes in my old 1960s organ are broken too, the highs sound muddy and the bass pedals just make a lot of noise. It's part of the groove.
Anyway, I've downloaded the game and all the tools I need to start modding. First off I'll have to write a tool that can recognize critters' armor values and edit them en masse, I used to have one, but it disappeared in a hard drive somewhere. I don't know if any of these newfangled item editors can do that, if so I might just use them, otherwise I'll knock something together in C#.
Then I'll use that to finally include armor stats for all the critters in the RP, the UP and the Megamod. I think the mod is compatible with the newest RP anyway, but I'm not 100% sure about Kaga and the beasties in the EPA, and in any case it would bring me great peace of mind to know for sure.
Then comes the fun part, which is to edit the maps and random encounters. Currently F2WR gives the game one heck of a difficulty curve in the early stages, but it smooths out as soon as you get decked out in Combat armor, because there simply aren't enough enemies that have AP ammo in the game, and the ones that do have their weapons loaded with JHP to begin with. In the vanilla game that's a good thing because AP ammo is useless, but with F2WR comes the need for change. The plan is to give more enemies in the later stages of the game (NCR, Raiders, Mobster guards, Vault 15) AP ammo if their weapon supports it, or another weapon that does. A couple of the Salvatores will have Magneto-Lasers, a couple of Bishop's and Mordino's inner circle might now be toting 14mm pistols, and the ones with 10mmSMGs will definitely have AP ammo in them. The Vault City Raiders will also get better armor, and so will a few other groups high up in the food chain, so you'll have more use for your AP ammo.
With that comes a rethinking of armor AC. I've decided to solely make it represent evasion, so heavier armor will now have less of it. Leather jackets and their combat versions provide a good boost to it, leather armor provides a smaller boost, Combat Armor doesn't change it at all, and Metal Armor and the power armors will actually lower it. If you want to run around like a ninja and pick the HTH Evade and Dodger perks (which I did on a stupid character once, it is AWESOME), you can now wear light armor to aid you further in your suicidal roleplaying.
Also, random encounters. They currently provide you with way more ammunition than I like, so I plan on removing most if not all of enemies' spare ammo in random encounters. If their weapon has a very low clip such as a Shotgun, they will get a sidearm like a pistol in addition to it. So, if you want ammo, you'll have to buy it. I'll also give them some more interesting weapons than just endless Combat Shotguns and Sniper Rifles, so you might see anything from Sawed-Off shotguns and Wrenches to XL70E3's and M60s depending on where you are in the game. Enclave Patrols will now have the upgraded versions of their weapons (fear the Magneto-Lasers!), Moonshiners and Bootleggers will have Molotovs, and baddies around the later areas of the game will get the same AP ammo treatment as the ones in the maps, plus upgraded armor if it fits with their style. This doesn't mean I'll start putting Power Armor on everyone, but the higher level enemies towards the lower areas of the worldmap will generally look less like ragtag bandits and more like para-military tactical units, with the equipment to match.
Finally, I've planned some minor item tweaks to improve consistency. Mostly balancing out weird ammo values and removing AC modifiers for just about everything except flamer fuel, rockets, energy ammo and perhaps shotgun shells. Energy ammo will get a small boost, 7.62mm will get slightly more armor piercing, 2mmEC will get a lot more (in fact I plan to make it ignore everything but DT completely), and the Bozar will finally get the range it deserves, I'd mistaken it for a bullpup sniper in the past, which it totally isn't. Also, for the heck of it, more damage on that 14mmAP pistol.
When all that's done it will be time to write an automatic installer, and this time it will finally work right. No more fumbling around with all those folders. They will still be there, but you can let the installer do the picking and sorting for you if you want. I'll also give the readme a once-over and include a short summary of how the changes in each section actually impact the gameplay, instead of just listing all the changes in a random fashion.
And then, after 7 years, I will call this mod finished. Maybe a couple of hotfixes or some esprit-d'escalier tweaks, but I can't think of any new features I would add without going beyond the original idea - redoing the weapons.
For some reason though, I don't want the game to become *too* realistic or difficult, even though that's something I usually appreciate in an RPG. Fallout 2 has never been about survival, realism or even good gameplay to me, it's more about that "it's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine" vibe... that special something you can't put your finger on, like the reason why vinyl sounds better than CDs...It's okay to me if some of the game mechanics are broken. Some of the vacuum tubes in my old 1960s organ are broken too, the highs sound muddy and the bass pedals just make a lot of noise. It's part of the groove.
Anyway, I've downloaded the game and all the tools I need to start modding. First off I'll have to write a tool that can recognize critters' armor values and edit them en masse, I used to have one, but it disappeared in a hard drive somewhere. I don't know if any of these newfangled item editors can do that, if so I might just use them, otherwise I'll knock something together in C#.
Then I'll use that to finally include armor stats for all the critters in the RP, the UP and the Megamod. I think the mod is compatible with the newest RP anyway, but I'm not 100% sure about Kaga and the beasties in the EPA, and in any case it would bring me great peace of mind to know for sure.
Then comes the fun part, which is to edit the maps and random encounters. Currently F2WR gives the game one heck of a difficulty curve in the early stages, but it smooths out as soon as you get decked out in Combat armor, because there simply aren't enough enemies that have AP ammo in the game, and the ones that do have their weapons loaded with JHP to begin with. In the vanilla game that's a good thing because AP ammo is useless, but with F2WR comes the need for change. The plan is to give more enemies in the later stages of the game (NCR, Raiders, Mobster guards, Vault 15) AP ammo if their weapon supports it, or another weapon that does. A couple of the Salvatores will have Magneto-Lasers, a couple of Bishop's and Mordino's inner circle might now be toting 14mm pistols, and the ones with 10mmSMGs will definitely have AP ammo in them. The Vault City Raiders will also get better armor, and so will a few other groups high up in the food chain, so you'll have more use for your AP ammo.
With that comes a rethinking of armor AC. I've decided to solely make it represent evasion, so heavier armor will now have less of it. Leather jackets and their combat versions provide a good boost to it, leather armor provides a smaller boost, Combat Armor doesn't change it at all, and Metal Armor and the power armors will actually lower it. If you want to run around like a ninja and pick the HTH Evade and Dodger perks (which I did on a stupid character once, it is AWESOME), you can now wear light armor to aid you further in your suicidal roleplaying.
Also, random encounters. They currently provide you with way more ammunition than I like, so I plan on removing most if not all of enemies' spare ammo in random encounters. If their weapon has a very low clip such as a Shotgun, they will get a sidearm like a pistol in addition to it. So, if you want ammo, you'll have to buy it. I'll also give them some more interesting weapons than just endless Combat Shotguns and Sniper Rifles, so you might see anything from Sawed-Off shotguns and Wrenches to XL70E3's and M60s depending on where you are in the game. Enclave Patrols will now have the upgraded versions of their weapons (fear the Magneto-Lasers!), Moonshiners and Bootleggers will have Molotovs, and baddies around the later areas of the game will get the same AP ammo treatment as the ones in the maps, plus upgraded armor if it fits with their style. This doesn't mean I'll start putting Power Armor on everyone, but the higher level enemies towards the lower areas of the worldmap will generally look less like ragtag bandits and more like para-military tactical units, with the equipment to match.
Finally, I've planned some minor item tweaks to improve consistency. Mostly balancing out weird ammo values and removing AC modifiers for just about everything except flamer fuel, rockets, energy ammo and perhaps shotgun shells. Energy ammo will get a small boost, 7.62mm will get slightly more armor piercing, 2mmEC will get a lot more (in fact I plan to make it ignore everything but DT completely), and the Bozar will finally get the range it deserves, I'd mistaken it for a bullpup sniper in the past, which it totally isn't. Also, for the heck of it, more damage on that 14mmAP pistol.
When all that's done it will be time to write an automatic installer, and this time it will finally work right. No more fumbling around with all those folders. They will still be there, but you can let the installer do the picking and sorting for you if you want. I'll also give the readme a once-over and include a short summary of how the changes in each section actually impact the gameplay, instead of just listing all the changes in a random fashion.
And then, after 7 years, I will call this mod finished. Maybe a couple of hotfixes or some esprit-d'escalier tweaks, but I can't think of any new features I would add without going beyond the original idea - redoing the weapons.
J_Fred
Long time lurker
Magnus, you should definitely check out Phobos' mod. It implements lowered ammo drops, less stimpak uses, and AP ammo as the default in some guns (I think the HK P90 comes with AP, though maybe I just added it in myself). He also took the same approach with Armor AC, it's been lowered for powered armors.
Just some things to keep in mind!
Also, I ran your mod with the latest edition of the RP, and didn't notice any unusual things that would be due to your mod. I only let it go because the larger economy mod uses YAMM, and isn't compatible with your mod. :/
Just some things to keep in mind!
Also, I ran your mod with the latest edition of the RP, and didn't notice any unusual things that would be due to your mod. I only let it go because the larger economy mod uses YAMM, and isn't compatible with your mod. :/
You should try out the tool I made in C++, look for thread link in my signature. It simply copies armor values from armor item PRO file to critter PRO file. It has a BAT file where all FO2 RP critters are properly mapped. All you need is to change armor stats and run the tool.
If you on to scripting, check out latest Sfall changelog for some features like arrays or proper ammo cost changes.
Though our mods are competitive in some ways (some similar goals and changes), I wish you good luck. Every "new" active FO2 modder out there is a very good thing in my book. Besides, WR was the reason and inspiration for my mod.
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This tool sounds like something that would save me a lot of time, I'll definitely use that!
And hey, you've accomplished more in your mod than I ever set out to do, congratulations on a stellar job buddy.
It's mostly for my own sake that I'm updating F2WR, it's been annoying me for 3 years that I never finished it. But I can honestly say that your mod looks better than mine, and so does that Fo2 Mechanics Overhaul mammoth thing if/and/or/when it gets finished into a stable state. I personally have never really had a problem with Fallout 2 apart from the broken combat, so I don't really feel the need for a big overhaul just yet, but I'm glad my little mod managed to inspire others to make bigger and better ones!
That said, it'd be a shame if people stopped using this one just because of a compatibility issue. Is there some way F2WR could be made compatible with the economy rebalance?
J_Fred
Long time lurker
I honestly would have used WR over YAMM with the economy mod if I could. I prefer the set vanilla calculations and just altering AP and JHP ammo to fit.
It's perfectly possible to, my installer is modular. You can install only barter price script, for instance. However, some new items and mechanics (crafting) are designed to address economy, so in addition you could also tweak barter formula coefficients in INI (you can set different price coefficients on per city-per item basis) and adjust some items. Even include it in your mod if you want to.
Well AFAIK your mod is compatible with Megamod and vanilla, so it's a bit different audiences
I only play RP these days so I don't bother about other "mega" mods. (not that RP doesn't require some serious rebalance though, which is one of the current goals).
Well AFAIK your mod is compatible with Megamod and vanilla, so it's a bit different audiences
I only play RP these days so I don't bother about other "mega" mods. (not that RP doesn't require some serious rebalance though, which is one of the current goals).
This sounds good!
I do think it would be cool if the barter skill affected both buying and selling prices. I'll probably use that script myself, but I don't think I'll include it in F2WR.
According to the users, F2WR can be used with the newest RP just fine, it has included stats for the critters in it. I should probably update the compatibility notice. If there are no critters in v2.3 of the RP that weren't in v2.1 then there's no issue at all. Killap actually asked me if I wanted F2WR to be a part of the RP once, I said no because I wanted to keep compatibility with the UP and the Megamod, but now that the sources are out I can finally start tailoring the RP maps, I do use the RP myself now that they've fixed the dialogue in Sulik's Tribe and the Abbey.
Actually I can't remember why I didn't start working the maps sooner, I suppose maybe they won't compile without the right scripts. Looking forward to it in any case.
I do think it would be cool if the barter skill affected both buying and selling prices. I'll probably use that script myself, but I don't think I'll include it in F2WR.
According to the users, F2WR can be used with the newest RP just fine, it has included stats for the critters in it. I should probably update the compatibility notice. If there are no critters in v2.3 of the RP that weren't in v2.1 then there's no issue at all. Killap actually asked me if I wanted F2WR to be a part of the RP once, I said no because I wanted to keep compatibility with the UP and the Megamod, but now that the sources are out I can finally start tailoring the RP maps, I do use the RP myself now that they've fixed the dialogue in Sulik's Tribe and the Abbey.
Actually I can't remember why I didn't start working the maps sooner, I suppose maybe they won't compile without the right scripts. Looking forward to it in any case.
I was hesitating very much about editing maps myself. Reason - maps are binary format, you can't merge them if, for example, new version of RP is coming out - you have to re-do all your changes in every map that is in conflict.
But, RP is not updating anymore and recent updates are minor (2.3.3 didn't change any maps AFAIK), so you are safe creating unique versions of maps for your mod.
But, RP is not updating anymore and recent updates are minor (2.3.3 didn't change any maps AFAIK), so you are safe creating unique versions of maps for your mod.
Dravean
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Oh man, Magnus has gone quiet again. Hopefully we don't lose him for another couple years.
I guess the thread went dead. But since I only stumbled upon the whole project now, and have always been a major Fallout2 weapon nut, I still wanted to pitch in.
The original developers really messed up the ammunition system and weapon balance in Fallout2. This is not to bash the game. I wouldn't be here writing about Fallout2 16 years after its release if it wasn't one of the best (if not the best) computer games ever made. This is a feat which is especially impressive considering how badly the developers botched the ammo system and weapon balance.
It's really cool to see a serious effort to fix the many issues in the game's combat mechanics and weapon balance.
If the aim is to fix all issues in weapon balance that most likely were not intended by the weapon authors, then we have several guidelines to go by. I would argue that the main factors to consider when determining how powerful a weapon in Fallout2 was supposed to be are the following:
1.The Weapon's Price -- this should give some idea of how good the Makers intended a given weapon to be, with few exceptions.
2.How soon or late the weapon becomes available -- the earlier a weapon appears, the less good it should generally be.
3.The Weapon's Base Damage -- In many cases, this equates to How Much Damage the Weapon Does in Fallout1. Though it makes sense that JHP does bonus damage against soft targets but suffers against armor and AP does the opposite, ammo types that increase a weapon's damage without any penalties don't make sense. If the weapon was intended to always do 1.5x or 2x the base damage (like the Gauss guns and the Needler respectively), it makes sense that the developers would have just increased the base damage directly.
4.The Weapon's In-Game Description.
I think these four guidelines should be kept in mind when deciding on modifications. We should be making changes in order to make the weapons' combat value better reflect the one intended by the authors, the clues to which are the 4 above criteria. If a weapon ain't broke, don't fix it. And if something must be fixed, ammo modifiers should be our primary tool. Changing the stats of the weapon itself is more drastic, and ought to only be done as a last resort, IMO.
Lowering the $$$ value of weapons is cool if you're trying to tone down player wealth, as long as the original values are kept in mind as a reflection of the weapons' intended combat value.
I emphatically second the concerns expressed by some in this thread that game balance must come before realisticness. For example, the 14mm Pistol, though using a huge caliber, was NOT INTENDED to be more powerful than it is in Fallout1. This is supported by both its price and the stage of the game where it becomes available. Its stats should NOT be boosted beyond fixing the ridiculous ammo modifier, IMHO.
You seem to have done a good job overhauling the laser resistances of all types of armor, though I was surprised by how weak you made all Combat Armor against laser. Myself, I would prolly just have made the laser resistances equal to the plasma resistances, and moved on.
About your changes to different ammunition types' AC MODs:
You do know that the AC only affects your chance to hit, right? The AC MOD is of little importance to a player with a sufficient Skill to always get a 95% chance to hit. I'd just leave the AC MODs intact.
Disagree. The only modification should be normalizing the DMG MOD to 1/1. The DR MOD of -50 is already appropriate. The weapon costs $1100 and is available early, so its base damage shouldn't be boosted at all IMO.
Disagree. Since the gun originally costs 2200, becomes available somewhat late, and is rare, it should be a good weapon. Its combat value should reflect the fact that it costs twice as much as the 14mm Pistol. Its base damage of 12-24, as well as the range of 24, should be kept intact. The weapon has Weapon Penetrate and a good magazine capacity. These factors, coupled with your modifications to the ammunition types, make the weapon's combat value correctly reflect the pricetag of $2200.
These weapons originally cost $800 and $600 respectively, and they are available very early, so their stats need no boosting. Furthermore, the Magnum's AP cost should be increased to 5. It is, by default, way too powerful both for its low price and early availability. That is what needs fixing, the weapon is too good. Correcting .44 JHP's overly favorable modifiers (which you have done) and normalizing the pistol's AP cost would fix this sufficiently.
The weapon's monetary value is very low. Thus the gun shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt but vice versa. Therefore both the unmodded and modded Magnum should have the same short range of 15, IMO.
It should be the crappiest pistol in the game, judging from its immediate availability in Fallout1 and its low price. The stats should be kept intact, just with the ammo modifiers corrected (which you did).
Nice work!
Hmmm...I guess the really long range was a bit weird. But generally I think this is an unnecessary change -- fixing the ammo would have been enough. Your choices for 5mm ammo modifiers were good tho!
Acceptable. Its damage was a little bit low considering the increased AP cost.
A minor and unnecessary change imo. It wasn't broke.
I don't agree that these weapons needed fixing. The ammo modification was ok tho.
The Shotgun should be left intact IMO. It's not supposed to be very good at 800 bucks of value. The Sawed-Off Shotgun, being of the same monetary value but having only half the range, should indeed have a more significant damage edge than it does by default. I'd say 15-25 for the Sawed-Off Shotgun (same damage as the Combat Shotgun). Making it a one-handed weapon is cool.
Good work on the high-tech shotguns. They were underpowered for their price in the original.
Disagree. No need for a change beyond fixing the ammo (which was well done IMO).
It costs 2.75 times the price of the 10mm SMG. I agree with this change, but only if the 10mm SMG's base damage is the original 5-12, so that the difference reflects the price difference. The weapon did need some downgrading, it was way too powerful for its price in the original. So the general direction of this change is good.
.45 caliber "man-stopper" bullets doing 3 hp of damage is ridiculous, but game logic is game logic. This weapon is slightly less expensive than the Assault Rifle, and so should be only slightly worse. I think your change makes it too powerful. The weapon already has a huge magazine and shoots 2 more rounds a burst than the Assault Rifle. I think its stats should be kept intact, aside from the ammo improvement. Or, at the most, keep the average damage the same (11,5) but reduce its massive spread. To 8-15, for instance.
Excellent! That's exactly how I would have done it, and was in fact thinking not long before stumbling upon this thread that this would be the perfect way to amend the Gauss Weapons' excessive dominance while having them remain top-notch Small Guns with all the qualities touted in the in-game description still intact. Good work!
Ok, but they'll still do no damage against Advanced Power Armor or better. AP ammo or not. I guess this is because we can't have a DT MOD like New Vegas does.
Fine I guess. The randomness was annoying, and considering the high AP cost, a slight boost is alright.
I like the single shot, but otherwise I think this weapon's stats should have been left alone. At 3500 bucks, it's supposed to be the weakest machine gun, and that's what it is in the original.
Nice work.
Good call making it use the biggest caliber in the game, that makes a world of sense. I initially thought the gun should average 70 to 80 hitpoints of damage to make it relevant compared to the Gauss Rifle, but since the latter's damage was already toned down with the change to 2mm EC's modifiers, this is no longer necessary. 38-76 is fine, though reducing the random variation to 48-66 would be preferable in my opinion, since high-end guns tend to perform consistently rather than displaying extreme variation between one round and the next. The only real issue I have is with the range. As someone already aptly pointed out, the kind of real-world weapons the Bozar was clearly inspired by have extremely long ranges, from 2km upwards. The range should absolutely not be anything less than the maximum seen in the game (50 hexes). These weapons are heavy and cumbersome. Their selling point is the range, accuracy, and ability to pierce armor. With the range appropriately increased, it would be pretty much perfect.
As for the weakness of laser weapons in Fallout2, I think changing armor stats is enough, and that changing weapon stats is unneeded. The Laser Pistol, at $1400, was evidently not intended as a very powerful weapon. In Fallout1 it averages one point less of damage per attack than the .14mm Pistol, which costs $1100, but vastly outperforms it in range and magazine capacity. This is entirely consistent with its monetary value, so the weapon doesn't need fixing. What needs fixing is all the disproportionately laser-resistant armor found in the game. The same goes for the Laser Rifle. No changes needed, except to various types of armor.
Armor stat fixes go a long way to make the Salvatores more fearsome. Giving Magneto-Lasers to most of the gang finishes the job IMO. If it's deemed necessary that the gang members be able to fire two shots per turn, then changing the weapon stats isn't the solution, but one should rather give the gangsters one more action point, so that weapon balance is not affected.
Increasing the range of the Pulse Pistol does make sense. The weapon is hugely expensive and becomes available very late, so it should have significant combat value. However, it also receives a lot of flak in the in-game description, so a bigger stats improvement would be unfounded.
I think the Plasma Rifle's original stats should be kept intact. With a pricetag of $4000, it was clearly not intended as a super energy weapon, but a competitor to the Laser Rifle.
I agree with reducing the AP cost of the Turbo Plasma Rifle. It is consistent with the weapon's very high price. However, the change creates a game balance problem. Since the first Plasma Rifle is available mid-game (in Sierra Army Depot), that means the Turbo Plasma Rifle is obtainable just as early (through Algernon). Thus, changing the AP cost the way you did would equip the player with a veritable super weapon at way too early a stage -- much like the Bozar in unmodded Fallout2. So, the modder faces a choice: whether to honor consistency&continuity between FO1 and FO2 as well as the pricing (and give the TPR the AP cost reduction) or put game balance before consistency and keep the TPR at 5 AP a shot. Ultimately, game balance should be the higher priority. However, I would suggest sidestepping the issue altogether by simply replacing the Plasma Rifle in Sierra Army Depot with a Laser Rifle. That way, the TPR can keep its low AP cost, and game balance is not compromised.
Welp, this was fun to write about. Hopefully the thread comes back to life someday.
The original developers really messed up the ammunition system and weapon balance in Fallout2. This is not to bash the game. I wouldn't be here writing about Fallout2 16 years after its release if it wasn't one of the best (if not the best) computer games ever made. This is a feat which is especially impressive considering how badly the developers botched the ammo system and weapon balance.
It's really cool to see a serious effort to fix the many issues in the game's combat mechanics and weapon balance.
If the aim is to fix all issues in weapon balance that most likely were not intended by the weapon authors, then we have several guidelines to go by. I would argue that the main factors to consider when determining how powerful a weapon in Fallout2 was supposed to be are the following:
1.The Weapon's Price -- this should give some idea of how good the Makers intended a given weapon to be, with few exceptions.
2.How soon or late the weapon becomes available -- the earlier a weapon appears, the less good it should generally be.
3.The Weapon's Base Damage -- In many cases, this equates to How Much Damage the Weapon Does in Fallout1. Though it makes sense that JHP does bonus damage against soft targets but suffers against armor and AP does the opposite, ammo types that increase a weapon's damage without any penalties don't make sense. If the weapon was intended to always do 1.5x or 2x the base damage (like the Gauss guns and the Needler respectively), it makes sense that the developers would have just increased the base damage directly.
4.The Weapon's In-Game Description.
I think these four guidelines should be kept in mind when deciding on modifications. We should be making changes in order to make the weapons' combat value better reflect the one intended by the authors, the clues to which are the 4 above criteria. If a weapon ain't broke, don't fix it. And if something must be fixed, ammo modifiers should be our primary tool. Changing the stats of the weapon itself is more drastic, and ought to only be done as a last resort, IMO.
Lowering the $$$ value of weapons is cool if you're trying to tone down player wealth, as long as the original values are kept in mind as a reflection of the weapons' intended combat value.
I emphatically second the concerns expressed by some in this thread that game balance must come before realisticness. For example, the 14mm Pistol, though using a huge caliber, was NOT INTENDED to be more powerful than it is in Fallout1. This is supported by both its price and the stage of the game where it becomes available. Its stats should NOT be boosted beyond fixing the ridiculous ammo modifier, IMHO.
You seem to have done a good job overhauling the laser resistances of all types of armor, though I was surprised by how weak you made all Combat Armor against laser. Myself, I would prolly just have made the laser resistances equal to the plasma resistances, and moved on.
About your changes to different ammunition types' AC MODs:
You do know that the AC only affects your chance to hit, right? The AC MOD is of little importance to a player with a sufficient Skill to always get a 95% chance to hit. I'd just leave the AC MODs intact.
Magnus said:
Disagree. The only modification should be normalizing the DMG MOD to 1/1. The DR MOD of -50 is already appropriate. The weapon costs $1100 and is available early, so its base damage shouldn't be boosted at all IMO.
Magnus said:
Disagree. Since the gun originally costs 2200, becomes available somewhat late, and is rare, it should be a good weapon. Its combat value should reflect the fact that it costs twice as much as the 14mm Pistol. Its base damage of 12-24, as well as the range of 24, should be kept intact. The weapon has Weapon Penetrate and a good magazine capacity. These factors, coupled with your modifications to the ammunition types, make the weapon's combat value correctly reflect the pricetag of $2200.
Magnus said:
These weapons originally cost $800 and $600 respectively, and they are available very early, so their stats need no boosting. Furthermore, the Magnum's AP cost should be increased to 5. It is, by default, way too powerful both for its low price and early availability. That is what needs fixing, the weapon is too good. Correcting .44 JHP's overly favorable modifiers (which you have done) and normalizing the pistol's AP cost would fix this sufficiently.
Magnus said:
The weapon's monetary value is very low. Thus the gun shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt but vice versa. Therefore both the unmodded and modded Magnum should have the same short range of 15, IMO.
Magnus said:
It should be the crappiest pistol in the game, judging from its immediate availability in Fallout1 and its low price. The stats should be kept intact, just with the ammo modifiers corrected (which you did).
Magnus said:
Nice work!
Magnus said:
Hmmm...I guess the really long range was a bit weird. But generally I think this is an unnecessary change -- fixing the ammo would have been enough. Your choices for 5mm ammo modifiers were good tho!
Magnus said:
Acceptable. Its damage was a little bit low considering the increased AP cost.
Magnus said:
A minor and unnecessary change imo. It wasn't broke.
Magnus said:
I don't agree that these weapons needed fixing. The ammo modification was ok tho.
Magnus said:
The Shotgun should be left intact IMO. It's not supposed to be very good at 800 bucks of value. The Sawed-Off Shotgun, being of the same monetary value but having only half the range, should indeed have a more significant damage edge than it does by default. I'd say 15-25 for the Sawed-Off Shotgun (same damage as the Combat Shotgun). Making it a one-handed weapon is cool.
Good work on the high-tech shotguns. They were underpowered for their price in the original.
Magnus said:
Disagree. No need for a change beyond fixing the ammo (which was well done IMO).
Magnus said:
It costs 2.75 times the price of the 10mm SMG. I agree with this change, but only if the 10mm SMG's base damage is the original 5-12, so that the difference reflects the price difference. The weapon did need some downgrading, it was way too powerful for its price in the original. So the general direction of this change is good.
Magnus said:
.45 caliber "man-stopper" bullets doing 3 hp of damage is ridiculous, but game logic is game logic. This weapon is slightly less expensive than the Assault Rifle, and so should be only slightly worse. I think your change makes it too powerful. The weapon already has a huge magazine and shoots 2 more rounds a burst than the Assault Rifle. I think its stats should be kept intact, aside from the ammo improvement. Or, at the most, keep the average damage the same (11,5) but reduce its massive spread. To 8-15, for instance.
Magnus said:
Excellent! That's exactly how I would have done it, and was in fact thinking not long before stumbling upon this thread that this would be the perfect way to amend the Gauss Weapons' excessive dominance while having them remain top-notch Small Guns with all the qualities touted in the in-game description still intact. Good work!
Magnus said:
Ok, but they'll still do no damage against Advanced Power Armor or better. AP ammo or not. I guess this is because we can't have a DT MOD like New Vegas does.
Magnus said:
Fine I guess. The randomness was annoying, and considering the high AP cost, a slight boost is alright.
Magnus said:
I like the single shot, but otherwise I think this weapon's stats should have been left alone. At 3500 bucks, it's supposed to be the weakest machine gun, and that's what it is in the original.
Magnus said:
Nice work.
Magnus said:
Good call making it use the biggest caliber in the game, that makes a world of sense. I initially thought the gun should average 70 to 80 hitpoints of damage to make it relevant compared to the Gauss Rifle, but since the latter's damage was already toned down with the change to 2mm EC's modifiers, this is no longer necessary. 38-76 is fine, though reducing the random variation to 48-66 would be preferable in my opinion, since high-end guns tend to perform consistently rather than displaying extreme variation between one round and the next. The only real issue I have is with the range. As someone already aptly pointed out, the kind of real-world weapons the Bozar was clearly inspired by have extremely long ranges, from 2km upwards. The range should absolutely not be anything less than the maximum seen in the game (50 hexes). These weapons are heavy and cumbersome. Their selling point is the range, accuracy, and ability to pierce armor. With the range appropriately increased, it would be pretty much perfect.
As for the weakness of laser weapons in Fallout2, I think changing armor stats is enough, and that changing weapon stats is unneeded. The Laser Pistol, at $1400, was evidently not intended as a very powerful weapon. In Fallout1 it averages one point less of damage per attack than the .14mm Pistol, which costs $1100, but vastly outperforms it in range and magazine capacity. This is entirely consistent with its monetary value, so the weapon doesn't need fixing. What needs fixing is all the disproportionately laser-resistant armor found in the game. The same goes for the Laser Rifle. No changes needed, except to various types of armor.
Armor stat fixes go a long way to make the Salvatores more fearsome. Giving Magneto-Lasers to most of the gang finishes the job IMO. If it's deemed necessary that the gang members be able to fire two shots per turn, then changing the weapon stats isn't the solution, but one should rather give the gangsters one more action point, so that weapon balance is not affected.
Increasing the range of the Pulse Pistol does make sense. The weapon is hugely expensive and becomes available very late, so it should have significant combat value. However, it also receives a lot of flak in the in-game description, so a bigger stats improvement would be unfounded.
I think the Plasma Rifle's original stats should be kept intact. With a pricetag of $4000, it was clearly not intended as a super energy weapon, but a competitor to the Laser Rifle.
I agree with reducing the AP cost of the Turbo Plasma Rifle. It is consistent with the weapon's very high price. However, the change creates a game balance problem. Since the first Plasma Rifle is available mid-game (in Sierra Army Depot), that means the Turbo Plasma Rifle is obtainable just as early (through Algernon). Thus, changing the AP cost the way you did would equip the player with a veritable super weapon at way too early a stage -- much like the Bozar in unmodded Fallout2. So, the modder faces a choice: whether to honor consistency&continuity between FO1 and FO2 as well as the pricing (and give the TPR the AP cost reduction) or put game balance before consistency and keep the TPR at 5 AP a shot. Ultimately, game balance should be the higher priority. However, I would suggest sidestepping the issue altogether by simply replacing the Plasma Rifle in Sierra Army Depot with a Laser Rifle. That way, the TPR can keep its low AP cost, and game balance is not compromised.
Welp, this was fun to write about. Hopefully the thread comes back to life someday.