Fallout 3, Bioshock: Videogames or not?

the OP is right. fallout 3 is, i cant think of a more apt word, but decadent. it presents you with some of the least trivial options available. you cant piss anyone off to the degree u could in the originals, they always manage to turn the tables and shrug it off, its like bethesda wasnt expecting anyone to go down that route, or they were too lazy and decided to just let the player have his cake and eat it too.
 
Haha, yes, it was cringe-worthy at times.

I tried a lot of the time making snarky comments (not the obviously "evil" ones, but the "I don't give a crap what you think" type responses), and the NPCs were so cute. I'd insult them, and they'd respond with something like like "aren't you a free-spirited young woman?"

Then they'd carry on down the same dialogue tree regardless.

It was hillarious listening to them using their "I'm annoyed" voice for one sentance only, then switching back to their "aren't you nice" voice for the next.
 
They are definitely video games. They are definitely console games too. IMO Final Fantasy series are closer to "interactive media" than, say FO3, due to immense story rails and no impact upon the world. However, they had classic RPGs on old consoles as well. Most old console games are also harder than PC games in general.

So, I have a suggestion... How about definitions like "bad game" and "easy game"?
 
Hehe, I remember how pissed off you could make Tandi look. Or alternately how embarrassed/disgusted if you hit on her with a female character. There is nowhere near that depth of reaction with the current pseudo talking heads and FO3 lacks because of it.

FO3 is safe, but to be honest I didn't realize how "edgy" FO1 was when I first played it. I just played it and enjoyed it. It's only in retrospect now that I realize how Interplay pushed the envelope and how we'll never see another mainstream game like it in the post Janet Jackson/Hot Coffee era.
 
Gandar said:
Ahh Megaman. Back when games still took a certain level of skill to beat :D
Aye. Back when most games were arcade conversions (I had a c64 and an Atari 2600), you didn't even expect to complete a game.

But these games didn't really have a story either. Well, not beyond "your girfriend was kidnapped, go get her.." :)

Since games now have more in common with a short novel or comic, the expectation is now that everyone will complete the game. Recently, devs have started to implement features so that literally anyone can get to the end credits, drunk and half-asleep, with one eye on the TV.

This is progress ;)
 
But until recently, the majority of Mega Man games were those weird GBA/DS Card-collecting JRPGs instead of the side-scrolling classic Mega Man.

Mega Man 9 was a great idea, though it does irritate me that they expect me to pay money for higher levels of difficulty, the ability to play as Proto Man and the chance to fight Fake Man.
 
k9wazere said:
Gandar said:
Ahh Megaman. Back when games still took a certain level of skill to beat :D
Aye. Back when most games were arcade conversions (I had a c64 and an Atari 2600), you didn't even expect to complete a game.

But these games didn't really have a story either. Well, not beyond "your girfriend was kidnapped, go get her.." :)

Since games now have more in common with a short novel or comic, the expectation is now that everyone will complete the game. Recently, devs have started to implement features so that literally anyone can get to the end credits, drunk and half-asleep, with one eye on the TV.

This is progress ;)

The original 3 Ninja Gaidens actually had a pretty extensive (for console age) story.
 
k9wazere said:
Gandar said:
Ahh Megaman. Back when games still took a certain level of skill to beat :D
Aye. Back when most games were arcade conversions (I had a c64 and an Atari 2600), you didn't even expect to complete a game.

But these games didn't really have a story either. Well, not beyond "your girfriend was kidnapped, go get her.." :)

Since games now have more in common with a short novel or comic, the expectation is now that everyone will complete the game. Recently, devs have started to implement features so that literally anyone can get to the end credits, drunk and half-asleep, with one eye on the TV.

This is progress ;)

I dunno, there were lots of classics with very good stories. Final Fantasy II has the best FF story IMHO. Crono Trigger was phenomenal! And quite non-linear for a JRPG as was Final Fantasy III. Kefka being one of the all time most evil VG villains :)

But that's SNES generation...

Still, there were good narratives on the NES. Star Tropics comes to mind.

OOOO!!! OH!! You know what game still blows my mind with it's narrative scope, beauty, challenge, and amazing art direction. Out of this World! NOW THAT is an amazing game, showing that you can indeed have it all.

The graphics style is timeless, it's an amazing game, and still quite playable today. Done by one man (Eric Chahi) in 1991.
 
Foobar said:
And quite non-linear for a JRPG as was Final Fantasy III. Kefka being one of the all time most evil VG villains :)

But that's SNES generation...

Erm, you mean FFVI?? FFIII was on NES, introduced the Job system to the series...

Goog point on Chrono Trigger, can't believe I forgot to mention it...
 
Ausdoerrt said:
Foobar said:
And quite non-linear for a JRPG as was Final Fantasy III. Kefka being one of the all time most evil VG villains :)

But that's SNES generation...

Erm, you mean FFVI?? FFIII was on NES, introduced the Job system to the series...

Goog point on Chrono Trigger, can't believe I forgot to mention it...

Well ya, FFIII US = FF6 Jap. FFII US = FF4 Jap.

Dang naming schemes ;)
 
Firstly, let me say that I am not posting to defend Fallout 3. While there are parts of the game that I enjoy I think it is overall a disappointment. If I had paid $50 to play the game I would want my money back, but as it is I find it an entertaining way to spend some of my time.

---

I believe that a good game is one which is challenging, but does not force the player to rely heavily on "creative saving" and can be played through with no prior knowledge of the game. I think that a game on "easy" difficulty should be casually winnable by terrible players. I belive a game on "hard" difficulty should provide a test of ability for veterans of the genre.

The OP made the claim that Fallout 3 and Bioshock can be played through casually, with one eye on the TV. Games of this ease should be reclassified as "interactive media" rather than videogames.

I disagree. If what you are looking for is a casual, relaxed experience, a videogame should offer that in the form of an "easy" difficulty. If you want a challenge, play "hard". If you want something in between, play "normal". Everyone is accustomed to the idea of difficulty settings, and no sane person has ever griped that the Easy setting was too easy for them. If they don't like playing with the Easy setting, then they don't. End of story.

In addition to difficulty settings, modern games are bringing new mechanics to the table to make them accessable to a wider market of people (see: people who are bad at videogames).

Fallout 3 has VATS, BioShock has Vita-Chambers (not plasmids). To criticize a game for having these features is no less silly than to criticize a game for having an Easy difficulty. If you don't like these features, play without them. In Bioshock, load your last save when you die. In Fallout 3, don't use VATS. What you have left is a game which is challenging, and can certainly not be played with "one eye on the TV".

I would, however, be all in favor of a new, easier-than-Easy, "interactive media" setting for videogames. :wink:

-------

Second Point: let me say that I am not attacking any particular game mentioned in the previous posts. I have played a handful of these games (Chrono Trigger, Mega Man, Planescape), but not all of them, and am therefore not interested in critiquing any of them specifically.

---

Many of the older games are simply not as "smart" as some remember them being. Many old platformer, RPG and FPS games required practice. Not practice of skills, but practice of specific content. Practice Boss1 until you know every step he takes, and how many antidotes to bring. Practice the underwater stage until you memorize the one route that gets you to the exit before drowning. Practice Conversation B until you know exactly which lines to say so the NPC doesn't attack you. Or, worst of all, practice the entire game until you can get to the final Boss with enough lives to stand a chance of victory.

This sort of practice is neither smart nor fun. The player is given no way to deduce a path to success, but succeeds only by repeat trial and error. Gameplay like this is a test only of how much patience the player has, and how little else the player could be doing with his/her time.

Many people, myself included, do not think that a good game should be such a masochistic test of patience and tolerance as some of these older games have been. Rather than relying on trial and error to solve a puzzle, the player should be able to observe subtle hints to deduce the answer. Rather than rely on trial and error (or in an RPG, adequately high numbers) to defeat an enemy, a player should be able to defeat enemies with a combination of skill and knowledge that he/she can acquire without engaging in suicidal experimentation.
 
Flambo said:
Many of the older games are simply not as "smart" as some remember them being. Many old platformer, RPG and FPS games required practice. Not practice of skills, but practice of specific content. Practice Boss1 until you know every step he takes, and how many antidotes to bring. Practice the underwater stage until you memorize the one route that gets you to the exit before drowning. Practice Conversation B until you know exactly which lines to say so the NPC doesn't attack you. Or, worst of all, practice the entire game until you can get to the final Boss with enough lives to stand a chance of victory....

True for the console arcade games like mario or Ninja Gaiden or Megaman. Not so true about the RPGs. For example, FF series would make you think what characters/jobs/abilities to use and in what combination for different enemies. It took time to figure out. Knowing the game helped, but not more than for any other game. FO3 tells you pretty much outright "Shoot teh head!" and "Shoot the same place all teh time!"

Complaint that you can "practice the dialogue" goes pretty much for any game with dialogue trees, since that is the best type of interaction that exists. It would be ridiculous to argue that FO3-like dialogue tree that loops back to the same line regardless of the path taken, or even the absence of dialogue at all, is any better. It the best there is, it's not perfect but that's what we have.

Any game can be "practiced", but the older games made it a bit more of a challenge, so beating a game actually felt rewarding. If anything, the older games were "smarter" in that they offered harder puzzles and quests.
 
I most definitely agree with their being harder puzzles and quests in many older games, and even several modern games. Fallout 3 is very far from pushing the envelope in that area. Or, well, in any area.

But to play devil's advocate for a bit, FO3 really isn't quite as cut and dry as you make it sound. Headshots are great for weak enemies that will die quickly, but for bigger guys with bigger guns it's often important to hit their arms and make them drop their guns. With mirelurks, you may need to go for the legs to keep them from charging, especially since their face is impossible to hit unless youre downhill from them.



Your FF example is a good point as to what was smart about many older games. As for the dialog, what I was talking about specifically are the times where you just kindof have to guess which response (flattery? or what if flattery makes them mad, should I be snide to win the NPC over?) will do the trick. An alternative would be to have it clear to the player that the NPC is worth talking to (maybe theyre the mayor, or someone theyve heard of), and then offer the opportunity to gather information about the character, through more trivial dialog with lesser NPCS, to determine what sorts of responses are more likely to work with the important NPC. The savvy player thinks to ask around first, but the dumb/impatient bulls ahead and may be penalized for it.

Unfortunately, I'm not able to say any more about Final Fantasy in particular, I've never played any of them. Don't hurt me. ;)
 
first off, i agree with the OP. FO3 and Bioshock play themselves. It's actually completely impossible to not win Bioshock given those reincarnation tubes every 5 feet. Since enemies retain damage, you could theoretically kill a big daddy simply with hit/die/hit/die/hit/die.

But i don't think it's consoles doing it.

I have a PC, but I game on my PS3 for a few reasons - mostly hardware, but also because i work on my computer and having games on it tends to be a bad idea. i think a lot of people are in this boat.

the problem is that more people are gaming across the board. heck, you might as well blame tetris and bejeweled, because the money is firmly in the casual market.

if you design a hard game, you're designing for a niche market. it used to be that this niche market was the majority of tge game playing public since everyone playing games was suitably geeked out. but now?

as for FO3... it's ridiculously easy. Not Bioshock easy, since you don't auto-reincarnate... but close.
 
Of course they're video games. Whatever you may think they are, in the end they're video games. Graphics on display meant to be enjoyed by the user ;)

Btw games don't need to be a challenge for them to be 'video games'. The just need to be fun. Not saying that I don't like challenge, I do in fact, but still, FO3, bioshock etc are games like any other. I enjoyed them (well FO3 I did, didn't finish bioshock) just like any other game past and present.
 
Flambo said:
The OP made the claim that Fallout 3 and Bioshock can be played through casually, with one eye on the TV. Games of this ease should be reclassified as "interactive media" rather than videogames.

I disagree. If what you are looking for is a casual, relaxed experience, a videogame should offer that in the form of an "easy" difficulty. If you want a challenge, play "hard". If you want something in between, play "normal".

Fallout 3 has VATS, BioShock has Vita-Chambers (not plasmids). To criticize a game for having these features is no less silly than to criticize a game for having an Easy difficulty. If you don't like these features, play without them. In Bioshock, load your last save when you die. In Fallout 3, don't use VATS. What you have left is a game which is challenging, and can certainly not be played with "one eye on the TV".
As you say, it would take more than difficulty settings to make FO3 a decent game.

The whole design philosophy would have to change, from a game designed for casuals to a game designed for gamers. You can't flip and switch to make that happen.

Arguments which rely on "if you don't like it, don't use it" are oft used, but I don't agree. Not using VATS would not create new gameplay opportunities. It would not make me enjoy the other parts of the game I do not currently enjoy. It would simply extend the time it took to get things done. Not good, not challenging, just stringing it out more.

Many of the older games are simply not as "smart" as some remember them being. Many old platformer, RPG and FPS games required practice. Not practice of skills, but practice of specific content. Practice Boss1 until you know every step he takes, and how many antidotes to bring.

This sort of practice is neither smart nor fun.
I'm sorry but I totally disagree.

Observing boss patterns, figuring out what the designers want you to do, then doing it - that's valid gameplay. Sure you lose a couple times while you're figuring it out, but what have you lost? A lil' bit of time. If the game is fun, you don't mind.

Also with these old games, execution was as important as knowing what to do. Sure it took practice, but it was a punch-the-air moment when you got past a tough bit.

Boss fights are pure awesome when they kick your ass 20 times in a row and you start cursing the screen. That's why they're bosses, after all.

The final boss of MGS2 is a great example. He kicked my ass for about two hours before I beat him. I was almost jumping around the room when I did it.

That was entertaining.

Many people, myself included, do not think that a good game should be such a masochistic test of patience and tolerance as some of these older games have been. Rather than relying on trial and error to solve a puzzle, the player should be able to observe subtle hints to deduce the answer. Rather than rely on trial and error (or in an RPG, adequately high numbers) to defeat an enemy, a player should be able to defeat enemies with a combination of skill and knowledge that he/she can acquire without engaging in suicidal experimentation.
As said above, difficulty settings aren't going to be the magic cure.

You and I want different games. Simple as that.
 
This is entirely subjective and I think it's ridiculous for the OP to claim that basically any video game he doesn't personally like doesn't even meet the definition of a video game.

Now, of course, it's an old-school vs. new-school gaming argument, which is just as silly. The old-schooler laments how easy games these days are, while the new-schooler says "good riddance!" to level design intended to frustrate and annoy you over and over again. Games are about more than just memorizing where at platform goes or how a boss attacks. If you think that any game that doesn't have those elements is a bad game, well, then I'm sorry for you. Some people like that sort of thing, and there's no shortage of games for those people. Others like gaming for other reasons, either to explore the game (the only redeeming quality of FO3 that lasts more than a couple hours), play out the storyline, or just kill time.
 
So far this thread made me realize one important point:

The difficulty sliders in Fallout 3 need to be rethought. As-is they just ramp up enemy health and damage for a pretty annoying experience. IMO hard should be more that you still kill quick, but they kill quicker. 10 headshots with a laser pistol to kill a raider made me lose faith in their game design. Very Hard should have just made it harder for me to hit and easier for him to hit me back!

One of the things I liked about FO1&2 was that difficulty effected your "rolls" on all abilities. I think if Beth released a patch that made Very Hard something that was challenging in a way that kept me immersed in the experience they would do well for replay value. The current state of the game makes me think "Very Hard" mode is "You are a retard who brings a slingshot to a gun fight".

10 attempted head shots to kill a raider is fine - if they mostly miss because of difficulty scaled accuracy. 10 shots that CONNECT and whittle away at their health is just idiocy.

Health scaling as a difficulty factor works in Melee games (Oblivion). Makes me cringe in FO3
 
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